"Speed-built" SOLs - Wood Type limitations

[Anolytic]

My post is below, but for those who will avoid reading anything longer than a paragraph, here is the short version of my proposal:

Limit wood type choices when building Lineships (4th-1st rates) to only allow the heavier wood types: sabicu, white oak, caguairan and live oak.

---------------------------

I have observed with interest the discussions about the combat model we are now testing on the testbed. I haven't gotten around to testing it myself yet, but I have gradually grown more positive as I've read admin's elaborations on his thinking on the matter.

But there is one issue that, like many others, I foresee: speed-built ships-of-the-line cruising around the open world, able to run away from all other SOLs, and devastatingly deadly against every frigate, and at the same time with the ability to catch them.

Should this really be a thing? If the new combat model prevents frigates from messing with SOLs, should SOLs still be able to interfere with frigate-combat?

I seem to remember having seen some historical evidence that SOLs would not fire upon frigates in a fight, unless the frigate opened fire on the SOL first. So even in battles like the Trafalgar, frigates would fight frigates and SOLs would fight SOLs. If a frigate did fire at a ship-of-the-line the latter could return fire, and it would be devastating.

Another question I have is: Why ever would a navy build a lineship, as expensive as they were, that would be unable to fight in formation against other lineships? What navy would waste their treasury on building a "fir/fir" Victory, that could hunt down frigates, but would be useless in the Battle of Trafalgar, or Battle of the Nile, when they could probably build five frigates to patrol waters against enemy frigates for the same price, allowing them to cover greater areas, be less vulnerable to ships needing replacement or were lost.

Historically, ships did not last infinitely in service like they do in-game unless sunk. 

So my question is:  Should we be able to build "light" lineships?

My suggestion, though I put it out there without taking much time to ponder it myself first, is this:

What if we limited possible wood type choices for Lineships to only the heavier woods? What navy has use for fir, bermuda, mahogany or even teak lineships?

I would also take oak out of the question, because it can be farmed and doesn't have to be bought from the market.

So that leaves us with sabicu, white oak, caguairan and live oak.

Those, in my opinion, should be the only options when building ships from 4th rates and up.

Frigates however, should have the option to use cheaper/faster wood types - for diversity and tactical choice.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Anolytic

[jodgi]

I support this message!

Even the possibility of fir/fir bellonas being faster and stronger than sensible frigate builds is just disgusting.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Anolytic, and Oak as well. ( being the equal for both classes )

[Guest]

i support this, even though its a sandbox game you still have other sandbox games which limits use of materials towards weapons, e.g. you need a high end material to craft a good gun etc.

[Njord]

3 hours ago, Anolytic said:

I seem to remember having seen some historical evidence that SOLs would not fire upon frigates in a fight, unless the frigate opened fire on the SOL first. So even in battles like the Trafalgar, frigates would fight frigates and SOLs would fight SOLs. If a frigate did fire at a ship-of-the-line the latter could return fire, and it would be devastating.

Interesting. So this was some code of honour thing or simply to preserve ammunition for more valuable / dangerous targets?

[Serk]

5 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Interesting. So this was some code of honour thing or simply to preserve ammunition for more valuable / dangerous targets?

Code of honor. Everyone knew a frigate was no match for any lineship.

If I'm not mistaken, frigates had no use in such battles, but to relay messages from the flagship to the rest of the formation, and to rescue heavily damaged ships and crewmembers.

There is a case of a french frigate opening fire at a british lineship (Aboukir?) and getting swiftly dispatched as a result by returning fire.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Serk

[Powderhorn]

4 hours ago, Anolytic said:

 

I too, approve of this idea.

[AeRoTR]

This is the only way to go with the current damage model. I would accept teak for frame as lightest avaliable wood, plankings to be only oak/sab/cag/wo/lo. So still room for a teak/wo build.

[Powderhorn]

47 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

This is the only way to go with the current damage model. I would accept teak for frame as lightest avaliable wood, plankings to be only oak/sab/cag/wo/lo. So still room for a teak/wo build.

Since that's the current meta for the beefiest ships while still pushing the speed cap, I think that rather sharply goes against the intent of the OP.

[Beeekonda]

17 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

 Since that's the current meta for the beefiest ships while still pushing the speed cap, I think that rather sharply goes against the intent of the OP.

Teak/WhiteOak Bellona                                                                                   Oak/Oak Bellona                                                              Fir/Fir Bellona

https://na-map.netlify.com/

and Penetration table for longs

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Beeekonda

[Anymn]

While I can see that fast SOL's can be abused on the PvP server, teak was used for constructing the following second and thrid rates:

• HMS Ganges (1821), 84 guns
• HMS Asia  (1824), 84 guns
• HMS Bombay (1828), 84 guns
• HMS Cornwallis (1813), 74 guns
• HMS Wellesley (1815), 74 guns
• HMS Carnatic (1823), 74 guns

That is, if the Wikipedia is correct.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Anymn

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

16 minutes ago, Anymn said:

While I can see that fast SOL's can be abused on the PvP server, teak was used for constructing the following second and thrid rates:

• HMS Ganges (1821), 84 guns
• HMS Asia  (1824), 84 guns
• HMS Bombay (1828), 84 guns
• HMS Cornwallis (1813), 74 guns
• HMS Wellesley (1815), 74 guns
• HMS Carnatic (1823), 74 guns

That is, if the Wikipedia is correct.

It is very probable that these ships were Indian built, HMS Ganges, like, HMS Trincomalee was constructed at Bombay,  Oak is not an native wood to India and it would have been prohibitively expensive to export Oak to Bombay so Teak was substituted in it's place. The result would have been faster less well armoured line ships, that may not have fared so well alongside or against traditional Oak builds from Chatham while in the line. They were, if you like to make comparisons a 19th Century Battle- cruiser, with the same strengths and weaknesses.

[William Death]

Or...just have the combat model balanced so that making artificial limits on ship construction isn't necessary. If we have un-historical massive speed differences due to ship construction, then we can have un-historical woodtypes for ships.

However, if mods are reduced to +/- 15% (so that the maximum difference between super speed and super tank is 15% on all stats, rather than the ~25-30% we can currently mod to), things will fall in line much better.

Furthermore, no matter what builds you compare, unless the frigate is a bad build (like oak/sab or something silly) then it will still ALWAYS be able to outrun even the fastest fir/fir Bellonas upwind. Source: I have a fir/fir 14kn+ Bellona, but any average teak/wo frigate will leave me in the dust if he turns upwind.

 

I, also, haven't played with the new damage model on testbed. I feel we need to wait for thickness to be properly implemented as Admin mentioned before we call foul on the new mechanics. (although I'm convinced that the changes are unecessary and our current damage model on live server is fine).

 

"If it ain't broke, 'fix' it till it is!"

[Slim McSauce]

I still remember the olden days of OW being dominated by speed built connies, bellonas and wasas. This has always been a problem and nothing that has been done since has been able to fix speed capped heavies. This I think will and though I think balancing woods to not be so extremely, and removing the redundant ones would be better, this is also a good suggestion.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

OW being dominated by speed built connies, bellonas and wasas.

This^^ is how to add variety and multiplicity (a range of ship classes) to the battle.

Traditional themes like Tanking, DPSs, Ranging (scouts) and healers (except healer, couldn’t apply) are proven methods to setting an MMO arena.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Guest

[Galt]

I think the best way to combat this issue is to increase the disparity between wood types. Fir/Fir should give bigger penalties and Live/White should be slower and a bit tougher. With this new damage model the devs said it would take about 3 broadsides to finish another ship. I think that makes combat move too quickly and the type of wood I build my ship out of should play a bigger factor. I support the message above, limit lineships to only certain woods, but make life equally easier for frigates by making their woods more useful. What we are seeing right now is ships only being built out of Teak/White/and Live. Make  fir/bermuda the only woods to reach 15.5 and make Live/White ships slower but with better stats. More disparity will give captains more reasons to use other wood types and give us a reason to have a large variety of ship builds. 

[Tom Farseer]

To be honest, I find the idea of limiting wood types for lineships interesting. The problem I see with it though, is that it is a forceful limitation. It would be better if we could find ways to motivate players to choose the correct woods whithout putting in a hard limit. My alternate suggestion would be to simply reduce SoL speed to a more appropriate level.

Bear with me for a little example:
Currently a Live Oak/ White Oak Ocean with Bridgetown Frame Refit has a top speed of 8.75 knots. It's base top speed without Wood and upgrade bonuses is at 9.76. going Fir/Fir with Art of Shiphandling, and a Naval Clock would get us to 11.8. All these values are taken from Felix Victor's map here and are without repairs.

So we get:

• Live White Tank: 89% relative speed (8.75/9.76)
• Base speed obviously at 100% (9.76/9.76)
• Fir/Fir speedy: 121% relative speed (11.8/9.76)

I we shaved of about 1.5 knots of the base speed, that should leave us with

• 8.26 base speed 
• (8.26*0,89=) 7.35 knots for the tank
• (8.26*1.21= ) 9.99 knots for the fir ship.

The same exemplary builds for a bellona would be:

• Tank:  10.2 -> 89%
• Base:  11.4 -> 100%
• Fir:      13.8 -> 121%

Again -1.5 knots on base speed:

• Tank:    8.8 -> 89%
• Base:    9.9 -> 100%
• Fir:      11.9-> 121%

Those are still decent values in my opinion. The ships still sail fast enough to not make a PB 45 minutes of sailing towards each other and they would give lighter classes that speed buff.

One could even only reduce the speed penalty to -1 knot. The effect would still kick in I think.

 

Also while doing that one might take a look at speed differences of ships of the same class (#MakeWasaUsefullAgain )

Edited February 11, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom Farseer said:

Also while doing that one might take a look at speed differences of ships of the same class (#MakeWasaUsefullAgain )

the wasa is useless because of the small hold size so when she is fully gunned she has already used up over half of her hold size

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

With the 13kn Montanes 3rd rate coming, this problem must be adressed so we don't meet 15kn 3rd rates one shoting frigates like nothing..

I feel the testbed DM & novelties may at the contrary discourage building f/f lineships as rageboard speedfit would be destroyed by broadsides in parralel boarding and sink as soon as boarding is finished.  Same with the new broadsides weight & nerfed bow-stern tanking, a strong build of similar class will destroy a fir/fir one in maybe 1 or 2 broadsides, and a fir/fir bello closing-in frigate group would take good amount of damages (maybe even loose mast by structure loss) I still need to test it. 

 

Either way, simply removing fir & bermuda from lineships craft & redeemable options may be the easiest move and solve it clearly. If i remember well, Santissima was build in cuban mahogany ?

Edited February 11, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Tom Farseer]

I sadly can't test much the next days... Can anyone maybe redeem a fir/fir Bellona on Testbed and test it against someone with a T/Wo build? Just to see how long it holds under fire.

[Neads O'Tune]

I support the idea but I think maybe it should be more graduated, so for example: 

You can use any wood type up to and including all fifth rates but once you get to fourth rates then remove the option for using fir but allow teak and sabicu (i think)  to remain an option and THEN when you get to third and above only allow them to be built from the "heavier" woods.

[Neads O'Tune]

13 hours ago, Anymn said:

While I can see that fast SOL's can be abused on the PvP server, teak was used for constructing the following second and thrid rates:

• HMS Ganges (1821), 84 guns
• HMS Asia  (1824), 84 guns
• HMS Bombay (1828), 84 guns
• HMS Cornwallis (1813), 74 guns
• HMS Wellesley (1815), 74 guns
• HMS Carnatic (1823), 74 guns

That is, if the Wikipedia is correct.

I may be wrong of course but wasn't there a oak supply shortage in Britain around that time that meant teak had to be used instead with a lot of ships?

Also I think all of those were built in India? SO that could also explain the use of teak.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Neads O'Tune

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes. Correct. Frigates especially started to use alternatives to oak.

But teak was always used, especially for deck flooring.

[Guest]

The "funny" part about Teak is this

https://books.google.de/books?id=eDatBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT244&lpg=PT244&dq=age+of+sail+wood+teak+splinters&source=bl&ots=yzFFmw6fpx&sig=ACfU3U127j_qBi3zXtW6Is8CAEh_cPWMBg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi42KmGprjgAhWI2KQKHav5BCgQ6AEwCXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

But I dunno if Teak really caused infections easier than Oak.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Guest

[LIONOFWALES]

On 2/10/2019 at 9:50 AM, Anolytic said:

Limit wood type choices when building Lineships (4th-1st rates) to only allow the heavier wood types: sabicu, white oak, caguairan and live oak

Don't forget Oak my friend... Oak was used in the construction of many Line Ships.