Are naval tactics and sailing more complex than other games?

[Destraex]

A mate if mine saw naval action the other day and commented to me that it looked simple in comparison to mechwarrior online and especially compared to flying games. I had always thought of sailing as possibly just as complex as mechwarrior or mech games and obviously not as complex as flying. So somewhere in between.

 

I showed him the two manoever cards we have in this forum that look fairly close to scissors and other flight manoevers albeit not in 3d. He was still not impressed saying all it looked like I was doing was playing a game similar to world of tanks. Elevate and fire....right? I proceeded to explain their was more than one cannon to fire and sails have to be set. This is not a motor boat you know. Some people just don't get it. In real life certainly you would not consider running out a tall ship without a lot of very skilled and well trained people.

Compared to other games like mech the ocean is for the most part devoid of cover as well which precludes a lot of land style tactics. I mean in sailing you have reefs, forts, islands, ports and such. A lot of sea battles used cover... Battle of the Nile for example and Copenhagen another. Are we kidding ourselves about possible variation and long term interest in tactics in a sailing game. I think not but my mate does.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[admin]

there are a lot of shades of grey and users prefer various things.

understanding of depth comes with time and just like with WOT starting battles when people are learning the game can turn into messy point blank shooting. 

 

There are several things not added yet, like fires, shooting at angle, crew and officers, variation of ship performance. They will further increase depth. 

 

also the goal of the sea trials is to find new ways to increase depth so if you have ideas please report in the sea trials topics with suggestions. 

[nebsif]

It all seems simple till a constitution out trick-maneuvers me in a brig.

[Charles Caldwell]

Look at Chess, looks simple enough..... now master it! 

[Stan Torres]

I think you can pick up the sailing part in no time. Getting good at it takes a bit longer but is still a relatively easy concept. On the other hand tactics are nearly infinite. Think of a game of chess, 32 pieces on the board but nearly infinite possibilities once the game starts. But in chess you can't fire magnificent broadsides  . It's all about being aware of your surroundings and positioning your ship accordingly. Look at a game of Battlefield, when it comes down to it it's all about firing a gun, but how you move, flank and position yourself are just as important as your aim and each game turns out different.

[Wicked Mouse]

there are a lot of shades of grey

Let me guess... fifty?

 

 

 

 

...what?

[Leviathan]

Look at Chess, looks simple enough..... now master it! 

This and poker is always how I viewed this game. Poker is very easy to learn but it can take thousands of hours to gain the edge necessary to be profitable. I like to call it 'skillful simplicity'

[Mirones]

WoT or Flying games are simpler and less skill based than NA why?

in WoT you are playing on an 2d enviroment in basic  with some obstacles to be used like rocks or an hill.

flying games are in 3d but there are only such a number of manouvers that you can do without reinventing the wheel.

+ there is only ganking either you are in advantage or not there is no in between.

 

in Naval Action you are limited by wind on an flat 2d enviroment and there only a handfull things afacting the battle and or outcome.

wind direction, are you upwind or downwind compared to the enemy or you chasing the enemy or the other way around.

so there atleast 5 moves that you can use in Naval Action.

and Chess isnt much more complicated either

the Challange is using these limited available moves to beat your enemy.

Easy to Learn - Hard to Master or as Leviathan said 'skillfull simplicity'

[Robert Danforth]

Honestly, if he thinks there aren't any tactics in WoT and that it's simple, I'm not sure I'd listen to his opinion about Naval Action in the first place.

 

Like Admin said, you can start a battle and race forward and shoot, but you'll die and in the end, you'll be terrible at this.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I'd still put flying above age of sail naval battles.  Yes, there are a limited number of maneuvers, but it's not dissimilar tactically to age of sail with the extra complexity of altitude and airspeed.

[nebsif]

BTW there's that Duel mode perfect for demonstrating manuevers for utube. Like if any1 *cough*Ramjbpls could just this in NA:

..

[Flip]

Everygame and game genre can be simplified down pretty easily with broad statements. Chess, this is how the prices move, just move them. Fps games: point and click. Naval games: shoot aim turn. Etc. But every game of any worth has hidden complexities and you can't easily say this game is more complex than that game when comparing across genre. If there was a similar tank game to world of tanks then one could compare the two.

[Grim DeGrim]

This is an interesting one....

MWO & WOT: no way, I play both and neither compare in terms of group play strategy or individual performance. In my opinion.

War Thunder: I think there's more in terms of what an individual pilot can do. I can only speak to the (!) arcade mode. I suspect that the realistic / simulator modes are more difficult.

What / how is NA different, and tactics more complex:

- the biggest piece to me is the group play an cohesive movement as a fleet. Yes, similar game play exists in other games. However the limitations set by wind, and the unforgiving nature of sailing bricks make coordination very difficult across a broad individual skill basis. This precludes even trying more difficult maneuvers (eg, blocking... Intentional blocking versus the other kind that drive SOL captains crazy).

- tunnel vision. Again, exists in other games but complexity of maintaining field position (I guess that's fleet position) and situational awareness is compounded by moving forward in one direction while firing laterally from a broadside. Many collisions, and enemy fleet taking superior positions b/c you don't notice them.

- wind. Mentioned it already... But it can have a very limiting impact on movement. ALTITUDE is the best comparable in WT. Except it is "fairly" easy to get altitude back. Once you've lost the weather gauge or need to turn through the wind... Good luck

Wall of text. In short: it isn't as easy as it looks, and will only get more complex with damage model 4.0.

[Destraex]

Everygame and game genre can be simplified down pretty easily with broad statements. Chess, this is how the prices move, just move them. Fps games: point and click. Naval games: shoot aim turn. Etc. But every game of any worth has hidden complexities and you can't easily say this game is more complex than that game when comparing across genre. If there was a similar tank game to world of tanks then one could compare the two.

steel beasts pro PE.

 

edit. Sorry you probably meant if these two games were similar. I never really considered world of tanks a tank game so its kind of in its own class.

[greybuscat]

I'm just going to say it. Your friend sounds like a twit. Make cooler friends.

[Thomas Blackwell]

People still play POTBS, and Naval Action is x times more intensive than that game. No, I think for those of us with the interest we shall be supporters of Game Labs and Naval Action both for a long time to come.

[Destraex]

there are a lot of shades of grey and users prefer various things.

understanding of depth comes with time and just like with WOT starting battles when people are learning the game can turn into messy point blank shooting. 

 

There are several things not added yet, like fires, shooting at angle, crew and officers, variation of ship performance. They will further increase depth. 

 

also the goal of the sea trials is to find new ways to increase depth so if you have ideas please report in the sea trials topics with suggestions. 

No problem admin.

This was not an attack on the game which I love.

It was a request for somebody else to explain better than me how sailing games can be complex and deep.

 

POTBS I have seen and to be honest I was not impressed so that would not be something to start as a comparison. Disney pirates with auto fire is not for me.

 

I appreciate there are more features coming. One I am hoping for is that chasers stern or bow must be moved into position.... rather than being permanent and that they are special long guns whether in broadside or chaser position. This would be an excellent "feature" to pay with in game coin to add to a ship.

 

As for sailing tactics I think most come from sailing the ship in the current conditions. Whether their be reefs, light winds, hard winds, setting all the different sails properly and even extra ones like studding or stunsails, reefing individual sails slightly, putting the right ratio of crew into the ship (different mix of skills) to run it in a certain way. Such as gunnery skill heavy or sailing heavy etc. Anticipating different changes in conditions - seeing dead wind spots by looking at the water, dealing with changes in wind direction. Wind needs to turn slightly or even the odd squall or two come across the map.  I will be interested to see how navigating skills are tested as well. Will we be taking readings with a sextant? Using the ships compass? Breaking masts or sails by putting too much sail on and of course gunnery skill. They we have the tactics themselves revolving around all this. The way the ship turns and tacks, wears/jibes and is efficient against the wind. The way we signal in game to our fellows or a frigate runs up and down the line giving or shouting orders... the way rocks and depth soundings are taken and whether or not your captain has a map of the area in his possession or even custom map making. 

and finally delivering a baby at sea successfully  

[Racketman]

Sounds like your friend has fallen into the trap of equating mechanics and skill ceilings. I fell into this trap when I said i didn't like WoW because Im just pressing hotkeys. Then someone pointed out i did the same in Eve and FPS etc etc.
Games need to be simple mechanically, otherwise you cant play the game. What you don't want to do is forget that its also about how those mechanics come together.

All games are about testing your ability at a game system against another person or the system itself. If there are not enough mechanics (depth) to the system its going to be easy to 'master' and not be much of a challenge. Given the constraints and the tools, its about how you use them, the decisions you make to best the other person who is under similar constraints under the same rules determines the challenge. 

 

Grim DeGrim brings up a lot of points about some of the mechanics and constraints at play. Your friend may look at it and say "oh its a flat thing all you have to do is aim well" he is right, in a straight up slugging match the one that lands more shots will win. So if you can use a mechanic (the wind) to deny your opponent a shot you have created a cover system of sorts and thus a lot of complexity revolves around denying shots or mitigating their impact. In that regard its a lot like Air combat.

 

Finally, like all things it gets even more complex and tactical when you throw in teamwork.

[Destraex]

i also refused to play WOW. Still do. I like games where not skill with stats but skill in the games melee combat system which shoud be as real as possible win the day.

[linkxsc]

Well, I've been watching some videos of gameplay, and I can't say that it takes any less skill than a game like MWO, WoT, or WT. Perhaps a slightly different skillset and a bit more patience, but it certainly isn't a game thats any less strategic. Especially if say, in the future during the open world aspect of the game you have to throw in worrying about the wind shadow of other ships, wind shadow of being near an island (or if you are fighting in a bay, the changes in wind from it blowing around the bay in all different directions).

[Juliette LaCroix]

People still play POTBS, and Naval Action is x times more intensive than that game. No, I think for those of us with the interest we shall be supporters of Game Labs and Naval Action both for a long time to come.

 

But the basics transfer very well into NA.Every PotBS player I ve been playing with thus far knew atleast remotely what he did. While many of the sailing enthusiasts ans jingles fans (not that I ve got a problem with that audience) struggle with the basics of manouvering while paying attention to the wind and your enemies and the loading state of your guns

[damsamy]

when i first got this game i was of the same opinion as your friend only i have a bit of history in sailing so i know some of difficulties that might be had but even then i never expected things would be as complicated as they are and i'm only at the Trincomalee(btw it heels a shit ton don't get up wind of your target) and things will only get more complicated as the game progresses, Ramjb did a video on combat tactics the other day, i think this is an appropriate example, its more than just aim and shoot, but unlike other games such as WoT and WT, this is one that will neither frustrate me nor leave me in disappointment and false promises.