Testbed Feedback - Battle UI, Localization, Patrols, Delivery quests

[DeRuyter]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

You clearly have not sailed 13.8 kn Victories. I suggest you think about their utility under the current damage model.

This is a point that needs to be addressed then. I wonder what the maximum sustained speed the RL Victory logged? 🤔 I am going to say it was much less than 14knts at her best point of sail. Slow and ponderous would be the trade off description (that's how I view sailing an unmodded T/OW Vic on the testbed). 

Sailing solo in a 1st rate may just mean that everyone runs away and you get no pvp. There's a reason not everyone will be sailing them. In a group you'll need fast ships to tag, ie; frigates, the eyes of the fleet, and that's pretty historical. Maybe one group might run into another group doing the same thing and we'll get one of the old school Trafalgar style battles (alright maybe that's wishful thinking. 🙂)

 

11 hours ago, huliotkd said:

 

Wrong! real old battles finish in less than 5 minutes...the big amount of time was needed to get in position to fire and closer to enemy to board, but then...1 broadside and the battle was over...sometimes some captains surrended before 1st shot fired...

That's a pretty general statement and not always the case. Sure if a small ship was caught by a ship with overwhelming force then they surrendered. Merchant ship usually surrendered unless opponent was a small privateer. Battles between equal sized ships could be quick or take up to several hours with many broadsides being exchanged. A well trained crew could put out 3 broadsides in 5 minutes or that was the rule of thumb anyway. Remember that we have much better accuracy at longer ranges where IRL a full broadside may result in only a few hits. Even once ships were at close action an SOL could take a number of broadsides before high casualties and guns out of action forced surrender (Battle of the Nile is a good example). The prime example of a quick battle would be Chesapeake v Shannon where there was no maneuvering and the ships went directly to close range. Shannon's crew was well trained and poured in 3-4 quick broadsides - one a rake, that pretty much decided the battle due to officer casualties, but surrender came only after a boarding. Maybe that type of battle is what you are thinking of. 

IMO Getting into position and maneuvering is part of the battle and can decide the outcome. In game that can mean a combination of the OW tag and maneuvering once in the battle since we start out so close in the instance.   

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

This I agree. I propose no amount of speed upgrades should make a higher rate ship faster than 2 rates below it. i.e.

Speed and wood combos can make 1st rates as fast as 2nd rates, but not as fast as 3rd rates and below. Close but not.
Same for all other rates, 4th rate can be as fast as 5th rate, but not 6th rate.

I also feel this is how hull durability should work but inversed:

Wood and upgrades should be able to make a 4th rate stand up to a 3rd rate, but not a 2nd rate.
Same for all other rates.

Of course there would be a couple ships that would bleed through...Notably the Victory could be as fast as a couple 3rd rates, but not faster. The Bellona could be as fast as some 5th rates like the Indefatigable, but not all. And roughly the same would happen with ship durability against higher rates....some might bleed through like maybe the Constitution could be almost as durable as a 2nd rate...or the Indefatigable almost as durable as a 3rd rate...but never better than, no matter the upgrades and builds.

As it is on the live server...ships mods are making lesser ships way too strong. On the testbed it is making them way too weak. 

But this response was mostly about speed and durability with included mods and trying to balance them out better between rates.

EDIT: Perhaps include Agility with Speed...as a Vic with upgrades should never be more agile than a majority of the 4th and 3rd rates.

I'd love for speed values and mods/books to normalize to the chart like yours.

I've said it before - These changes aren't bad IF we adjust speed on lineships to be slow and mods/books bonuses to be adjusted.

We NEED a lineship speed nerf across the board for this new damage DPS to be acceptable in my book.

[Palatinose]

2 hours ago, admin said:

But this skill was buffed and supported by an inverse DPS model and specially narrowed difference in hp which had zero relation to any historical considerations.
Because damage and hp was tuned for the lobby moba (unlike other parameters like yard power and such, that were tuned later) and its time to bring them to at least partially to historical patterns. This moba balance was hurting us, it was breaking the balance between classes and was lowering complexity due to bow and stern tanking and easy sterncamping. By fixing it  we are increasing complexity further.

This balance is going away. The game will value gameplay - but progression is part of the gameplay and changing ships too. 

Somewhere deep you know snow would not have a chance against a first rate. Every new buyer knows it. First rates are becoming kings of the sea and it is a good thing because everyone expects this. Do not hold on broken old mechanics you liked. They are bad for growth because they are completely ahistorical and if they are a-historical and cannot be supported by any logic (even with long stretch logic)  they will be removed

Sailing profiles are also a-historical. 1st rate spam is a-historical. I see the sense in both for gameplay or casual customer pleasing reasons respectively. But for a stringent argumentation partial reliance on historical stats does not work imo. I still think you have a plan and you're not like Mr. Trump who has to cherry pick or turn facts to please the crowds. I just don't get why you don't want to share it.

Can you please give examples of increased complexity? Could you share expectations on the amount of 1st rates used in pvp please? Following this, could you share expectations on allover number of pvp battles please - will it rise/decline/stay equal to now? 

[Guest]

Already the next rate ship is better, so the underdog is always going to lose (1v1 on paper), testbed changes will make the next ship even more powerfuller, making the underdog situation worst, 1^st rates will become the only ships to sail and possibly of them just the L’Ocean.

This removes depth from the game, weakening player desire to play, weakening the playerbase.

Just changing DPS is like “tunnel vision” when there should be a 360 view of all the facts and all it effects.

Better to have a range of rates compatible with a single battle instance, this creates depth within the game, strengthens player desire to play, strengthens the playerbase, very good for a MMO.   

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Guest

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

And sure, we all ground out first rates largely on our own against large NPC fleets under the current model, but it was always at the risk of running into two or more players not in first rates who would pose a danger if they knew what they were doing. Your experience runs counter to the many first rates that I and others in our clan have taken out under just such a scenario. Under the proposed changes you're invulnerable to this, and all this results in is less PvP action.

In OW outside of the reinforcement zone all you needed to do was tag the AI at distance and kite till the instance closed to ensure you did not get jumped. You sat on the dock and waited till the fleets showed up so you were always in range of the port or under the protection of the forts if the were waiting outside the battle. This is the biggest difference the recent patch made, where you get very few enemy AI around your ports.

Dealing with AI was always easy if you knew what you were doing, so this change now only makes it easier. If as you say the 1st rates are so overpowered that they can sail solo then I am sure people will use them to hunt people doing missions rather than 4th rates.

When this change goes live I doubt you will see many people solo hitting AI 4th/5th rate fleets with 1st rates as in most areas they have to sail to enemy waters to find them, and a solo 1st rate in enemy waters will be a prime target. The 4th and 5th rates will keep him tagged till the SOL's arrive to finish him off, so unless you have a very fast 1st rate you are most likely going to lose it.

[RKY]

4 hours ago, admin said:

This is completely opposite from what are we doing. We are actually increasing the skill level required to win in frigates. + remove easy mod bow and stern tanking. Miss couple of rakes = slowed and partially demasted. Increased importance to protect weak parts will in turn increase the influence of positioning, station keeping and wind control and planning (lost the wind - lost the battle)

+ Old inverse dps model was the REAL dumbed down model. It favored frigates. 2 frigates of any type could sink an average 1st rate. 4 frigates = guaranteed death for any first rate. This was unhistorical and stupid. 

So while i understand what you are trying to say, for me it reads: please keep frigates very easy. We have to think for all players so we have to bring the balance to the universe for all ships, not only ships YOU like to sail.
 

you are referring to frigate vs sol while i actually refer to 1v1 same ship class or same ship.

if anything this new combat model promote SOLs AND contrary to what the model is trying to achieve 6th rate and hercules.

5th rate being obsolete for anything beside fighting their own class. Although there is so much disparity within the class you can't even say that.

I will not comment or argue any further. I shared my opinion, the topic is here for this very reason.

It is your game, your decisions. if people want a new combat mechanic, so be it. (let's just hope it was not merely a minority of forum warriors, pve players, casual player with little skills pushing toward it)

[Carlos_Condell]

@admin  a though... could be posible to Block the speed mods for SOL and make it only for 4th rates and lower class, cause now in game you have Very fast SOL sailing at the same speed or even faster than the friggate class... that thing is broken... i think if you make copper plating exclusive for SOL, and ner slightly his base speed, making it more Wood depending instead of Upgrade/Knowledge depending.  posibles effects:

1: encourage to sail faster ships ( low class) 
2: if you take a SOL you know you will be slower but deadly
3: small ships had chance against a SOL but only doing a good job in rigging and racking, avoiding broadsides and fight them in numbers.
4: Crafting will play a role for SOL again, cause now the META is Teak/White Oak with speed mods, if you want to go faster with a deadly ship, u had to sacrifice a lot of thickness and HP, make it vulnerable to any friggate.
5: encourage more diversity of ships in OW

another thing i think will be cool... make 4th rates capturables, that encourage new people to fight them in OW and try to capture some to sail, instead of invest long time and effort to craft a 4th rate i thing that would help with RETENTION, cause many of the new players want to sail a "nice big ship" and if you make it only by crafting can be frustrating. im a NPC ship user for PVP so i can tell you with a lot of experience that NPC ships are a safe way to do pvp, but the easiest way to sink too... so u kill 2 birds with 1 shot, RETENTION and PVP population.

 

[van der Clam]

People too often speculate about what might happen. Just test the damn thing, see how it operates, adjust to it, and most likely people will find a new way to be dominant over newbs. Because that seems to be the only thing desired by those complaining of change...always winning against newbs. I say this because i never see these dominant players telling other dominant players where they are and at what time. Just test the damn thing, report bugs/issues and suggestions, rinse and repeat.

[huliotkd]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

we already have a great combat and damage model

an hercules hugging a bellona sinking her is great? a snow sterncamping a 1st rate sinking him is great? a requin boarding a bucentaure under square forts fire is great? a 1st rate that can sink an AI fleet of 11 1st rates is great? an indefatigable firing side to side with a 1st rate tanking all the broadside is great? i can go on...

[King of Crowns]

7 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

there has to be another way to player retention without this

 

 

 

WAIT one second here. DO THE devs really think that everyone quits this game because of the combat model? if so that's 100% LOL. people quit this game because there is this giant open world that has absolutely nothing to do after you have played the game for 10 hours you have experienced everything the open world has to offer.  go shoot this ship... pew pew.... okay now get a new ship and go do it again..... pew pew.... and after about 10 hours people are like okay well I will wait for the game to get more stuff to do then I will play. 

combat model is literally the only thing in the game that makes it worth playing at all. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by King of Crowns

[huliotkd]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Almost every example that you cite here is due to one thing: Inexperienced lineship captains. Period. (Which I guess may explain where your opinions are coming from.)

yeah indeed. inexperienced player should be helped by their ship cause they are using a 1st rates and they have to be sure that even if they aren't skilled, their firepower protect them from those akward mechanichs.

if i'm a noob but can afford a bellona, i use it cause it give me some protection from my own inexperience assuring me the chance to destroy everything on my side letting me escape downwind from the attackers in faster ans smaller ship.

 

so no more vets easy-killing noobs in big ship and posting screen in forum....

which i guess may explain where your opinions are coming from...

[jnovotny6]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Almost every example that you cite here is due to one thing: Inexperienced lineship captains. Period. (Which I guess may explain where your opinions are coming from.)

And this answer shows in a nutshell what your motivation is in your resistance to these changes: Kill the noobs with ease and feel superior to others. Im sure you will find a way to do that again 😋

[huliotkd]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Do you honestly think that having all of the above average PvP'ers in invincible first rates is going to make life easier for new and casual players?

this is the wrong starting point of all your argumentation...1st rates are no more invincible...

have you tested the new damage model?have you noticed the new penetration values? have you noticed how many damages you can do on a big slow target with simple medium guns? have you noticed the new stern and bow structure damage also in 1st rates?

 

and, if you think all palyers of server are like usa player that explain why you are still VCO and go farm noobs writing here you are worried about the psicological impact the new damage model should have on newbs...you want protect them from new damages patch while you go everyday killing him out of CT where newbs try to play... good job mate!

yeah yeah...the problem are invincible first rates...yeah yeah...

[AeRoTR]

I support the admin with his brave decision. This is still beta, if it does not work it will be reworked. It is out of my comfort zone, being a SNOW lover  , but I am sure most will adapt.

So my understanding reading the posts and my experience in testbed and live server, below needs to be adressed;

* Test server: it feels balanced within SOLs, but 1st rate against 10 frigates is a bit too powerful. We must remember these are AI, so players of 4-5 frigates can sink a 1st rate, but they must be very careful.

* Sailing profiles needs to be adjusted, SOLs to have a bit less turnrate, less sail power against wind. Frigates should have a chance to get behind the SOL.

* Big ships to be slower, no more FIR/FIR Sols. Limiting woods for Sols, only heavy woods. Sab/Cag/Lo/Wo/Oak etc.

* May be tunning down damage a bit, also the penetration or increase the HP of ships a bit more.

* Single cannon accuracy to be reduced !!! No more laser stern cannons. Accuracy reduced so ships try to get good positions for effective broadsides. Accuracy reduced to prevent stupid mast sniping with current penetration and damage values.

* SOLs to be more expansive.

* SOLs to be still vulnerable when sailing alone. I do not know the raking power of a 5th rate against a 1st rate on new damage model, but it should really hurt if 5th rate manages to get behind. So it will not be I am sailing SOL, I am invincible... If I make some mistakes I can lose this very expansive ship, I need some friends with me. We know 2 SOL or 1 SOL+some other ships, is super difficult in new damage model. So if you attack them, it is your call, but they should be slow so they can not play frigate hunter roles.

* Suggestion; Emergency Repair to repair 1 section of fallen masts, as demasting is very common, it is demasted = sunk. So masts have 3 sections, so if top mast falled down, emergency repair to repair top mast.

* I think thickness will be increased, still needs to bounce some shots due to angle, not being a perfect broadside. Landing a perfect broadside is a big skill.

* Overall mods like penetration mods etc. can be nerfed a bit more.

 

 

 

[Vernon Merrill]

1 hour ago, huliotkd said:

an hercules hugging a bellona sinking her is great? a snow sterncamping a 1st rate sinking him is great? a requin boarding a bucentaure under square forts fire is great? a 1st rate that can sink an AI fleet of 11 1st rates is great? an indefatigable firing side to side with a 1st rate tanking all the broadside is great? i can go on...

Lol.  All you tub captains talk about these things like they are easy.  In all of these cases, if you make on e or two mistakes, you are dead.  Hell, even if you make zero mistakes, if the other captain is decent, you will probably die.  Now it will be point and click......   when you can find something willing to engage you, that is.  

Move included an instructional video for people who may need some improvement.  

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

9 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

the only thing unhistorical and stupid is  a  1st rate captain sailing a first rate alone .. and putting himself in that position ... but you want to dumb it down so people can play stupid thats your choice

anyway thats my last ,,, its coming whether we like it or not ,,,,,, I hope your right and im wrong

A solo 1st rate is a dead 1st rate if it's ganked by a group that is smart enough to work it's stern and sails.   It doesn't turn fast enough to cover all sides or to catch some of the other ships messing up.   If a group is smart it should be easy work.  My problem is what I'll state below...when you have more than one and they are getting stern wrecked by small ships (hercs) that just shrug off broad sides like it's nothing and goes back to repair while the next guy works a stern.

9 hours ago, admin said:

I understand.  I will be honest just like you.
You want to keep easy mod. We are removing it.  As one of the old testers (maturin) said here. All feedback here has to be taken with the grain of sail because almost everyone only gives feedback to help him win.

First rates owners are a silent group and we are doing this for them based on data. Not your desires and thoughts.

I'm glad for the new model.  Prime example why I hated the old models.  2 1st rates grinding hostility (I"m one) and we get jumped by 5 hercs.  We protect each other by doing a zig zag pattern so that if a Herc and three of them took broad sides we could protect each other.  The problem was they would just fall back an keep us tag and heal before going back in.  Now if they get caught they are pretty much screewed, specially if that first didn't sink them we will prob be able to get a second shot on them and finish them off. OUt of those 5 hercs we only sunk one and that was cause I demasted it instead of going for a broad side.  Even than I had to chase him down as he ran from me with 40% mast until I caught him and sunk him.   That just some silly game play when light ships are taking full broad sides from 1st rates and running away.

I haven't messed around since the bump in HP yet but was liking what I saw. It also means playing solo is going to be dangoures for some.  You might have to just run for another day than killing of the half dozen casuals/bad players that jump you for hunting in National waters.  If they are half decent and you get caught your prob going to die like it should be.  HIGH RISK should be exactly that not easy kills.  If they want fair fights than go arrange them out of national waters with some one else.  

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Lol.  All you tub captains talk about these things like they are easy.  In all of these cases, if you make on e or two mistakes, you are dead.  Hell, even if you make zero mistakes, if the other captain is decent, you will probably die.  Now it will be point and click......   when you can find something willing to engage you, that is.  

Move included an instructional video for people who may need some improvement.  

High risk play should be that.  Why shouldn't they be dead if they  screw up doing such?  I'm sorry to many of th elight ships ruled the seas when they could tank a hit and than just run.   This will show who really has skills or who just abused bad game mechanics in the past?  Like some one else said, "I can't bow/stern tank any more."  You shouold never been able to in the first place.

[Vernon Merrill]

17 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

High risk play should be that.  Why shouldn't they be dead if they  screw up doing such?  I'm sorry to many of th elight ships ruled the seas when they could tank a hit and than just run.   This will show who really has skills or who just abused bad game mechanics in the past?  Like some one else said, "I can't bow/stern tank any more."  You shouold never been able to in the first place.

Because that stuff actually involved skill.  Now it’s just a dps math-fest.  

When was the last time you actually found an “even” fight hunting around in the OW.  Well now your list of ships you can actually fight just got a lot smaller.   

I hope I’m wrong, but....

Edited February 13, 2019 by Vernon Merrill

[van Veen]

On 2/12/2019 at 7:49 AM, admin said:

Masts connect to keel and have a lot of supporting elements inside the hull and rely not only on rig but also on ship structure integrity
As a result if you shoot at structure you lower the integrity of all supporting elements inside the hull, and at very low numbers more and more damage will be passed onto masts, but its not random - you need 1000 damage to be passed onto masts to destroy the 1000 hp lower section. 

Please have in mind that the mast foot is way below the waterline and therefore almost impossible to be hit by a cannonball. 

To my humble knowledge masts fell mainly due to damaged rigging, e.g. shrouds, spreaders, forestay. Raking chainshot is mast killer. 

Battle sails reduce the load on rigging and therefore the risk of losing the mast. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by van Veen

[Sea Archer]

Somehow the press of sails should have an influence on dismasting.

It would be great, if the mast damage would be somehow shown during battle, at least for your own ship, to estimate how bad it really is. Combined with sail damage, it is always surprising how long they may stand.

[van Veen]

@admin are there damage boxes for standing rigging in the ship models? 

[jodgi]

4 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Because that stuff actually involved skill.  Now it’s just a dps math-fest.  

When was the last time you actually found an “even” fight hunting around in the OW.  Well now your list of ships you can actually fight just got a lot smaller.   

I hope I’m wrong, but....

I can't see how this will play out in every last detail, nor am I sure if I personally will end up liking it more or less. I think I will like things better and I think this will improve the game for me.

A lot of people in this topic are absolutely sure about how the game will change, I'm envious of their clairvoyance.

Listen, the new raking damage will be a skill multiplier, I think. People who take the wind will have more going for them now. Like you, I am also a bit nervous about the new power of bigger guns, but I'm far from convinced it will be as bad as some people seem so sure about.

13 minutes ago, van Veen said:

@admin are there damage boxes for standing rigging in the ship models? 

Only masts and sails.

[admin]

5 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Because that stuff actually involved skill.  Now it’s just a dps math-fest.  

When was the last time you actually found an “even” fight hunting around in the OW.  Well now your list of ships you can actually fight just got a lot smaller.   

I hope I’m wrong, but....

I will try to explain Vernon

• The damage model appeared first in the original sea trials in 2015. 
• The damage model was set for lobby based shooter (which NA was before open world) where all battles are equal, and you do not lose the ships. Basically a MOBA
• In this model DPS was inverted because it would be strange if all ships had same hp and same damage, so the harmonization was realized by the following means
  • guns had inverse DPS
  • hp difference was artificially cut in half to support this balance (220 tons cutter and 5000 tons first rate only had 7x difference in HP)

There was a clear conflict.

• Open world MMO with progression and realistic elements should enforce power growth and provide clear benefits on investing time and money
• Moba style requires all heroes (ships) to be available right away and be balanced between each other 
• But since the introduction of the open world based on the player requests the game has been stuck between two models never completing one of them

So things were stuck betwixt 

• If you level only in PVE it takes up to 30 days (1h per day) to get to the first rate
• Costs for ships of the line were constantly increased and they cannot be captured on PVP server, and require port control to make them
• But power remained in the semi MOBA state where a 5th rate (requiring 2-3 days of progression and 1 day to craft/or 20-30 mins to capture for free from NPCs) could challenge the ship of the line requiring 30 days to reach and 7 days to craft (+ some farming)
• Complaints by players who lost lineships to light ships were usually dismissed with "Learn to play", but everybody knows 3 frigates could despatch a first rate without taking a sweat, while a first rate had to exercise precision with every move (because frigates could easily escape)

In short - game was forcing players to progress and farm to sail first rates, while keeping partial old moba model for damage (which was ALSO not working because the real moba model requires all heroes to be accessible from day1). So in reality it was not a MMO, nor a moba. 

This gordian knot has to be cut and it could only be done in 2 ways.
1) Ships should receive somewhat realistic HP and realistic ball damage, and this will justify longer progression and costs
2) OW costs mechanics must be abandoned and all ships must be made accessible from day 1

[Slim McSauce]

In short, the combat model we've grown use to was in line with the arena-style of Sea Trials, not an MMORPG which this game is.
Now focus is changing to deliver realistic and authentic models to better fit the historically accurate setting, with proper kill times, damage, and health pools.
The reason you probably won't succeed 1v1ing a frigate in a SOL anymore is because that's what's realistic and authentic, not because the game is "dumbing down"
We've just scratched the surface of this principle, I have faith gamelabs will pull it through and find reasonable balancing factors so 1st rates don't dominate every battle.
Besides that one little problem, combat feels amazing now, and it'll only get better from here.

[admin]

13 hours ago, z4ys said:

@admin will sailing profiles and lineare yard movement be addressed too? Will convince of sailing into the wind changed to fit more historical/rl values especially in battle instance? Will gun crew size be set to historical values too?

In terms of sailing profiles. Comparatively they are balanced between ships and frigates perform much better closed hauled and tack better than first rates for example. We just narrow the dead zones for better comfort. This could be addressed of course.