Game inbalances or cheating?

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Indeed the point was underlining, again, that skill matters, but it's the stack of experience and gear that unbalances hard the game against average captains.

There ya go, I refined the point for you. Gear is the worse imbalance, if you advocate for skill then you can't say purple/gold ships fit in to that.
You say you're good at sailing, yet fake knowledge slots and stacked mods is what's making your ship so much better than the average
not you personally, speaking generally)
It's just so hilarious seeing people defend this meta and in the same breath admit it's bad. Well no shit it's bad.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Licinio Chiavari]

18 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

You say you're good at sailing, yet fake knowledge slots and stacked mods is what's making your ship so much better than the average

Yes and nay. Again.

Mods make your ship with higher turn rate. But manual sailing in 90% cases has the highest influence in turning.

Mods make your ship faster, but it's matter of experience knowing best point of sail to catch or flee.

So. AGAIN. The stack of experience and super mods make decent captains Gods among bunches of casuals.

18 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's just so hilarious seeing people defend this meta and in the same breath admit it's bad.

Who? Surely not me.

21 minutes ago, Durin said:

... cartagena refit gives plus 2cm wich is nothing

28 minutes ago, Durin said:

next time i will sink your ship instead of giving it back to you after the fight 😜

Isnt Cartagena +5 cm? [Edit: noticed now you're speaking of masts... So to be ignored].

And...

LoL 😂😂😂

Edited January 17, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Durin]

3 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Isnt Cartagena +5 cm?

yes on the sides. that point was about masts tho

[Sir Max Magic]

3 hours ago, Durin said:

that is a new one to replace the one in the picture. you where the first, but hopefully not the last victim of it. thanks for letting everybody know about it btw, next time i will sink your ship instead of giving it back to you after the fight 😜

 

Mate, didnt you readed my whole message ???

 

I didnt revealed ANY of the stats of your ship BY PURPOSE !!

Because you told me quite frankly about those and i have the thinking, even when you are "enemy" by the game, you are such a gentleman that i wouldnt and didnt reveal what you told me to the public !!!

Therefore i just said "0.3 knots faster than my ship" and nobody can know how fast my ship is going...  

And that you own a Gold Ship amongst your other 29 ships isnt for sure a secret...  

 

...ALL vets have Gold Ships and noone would know whether the ship they are facing is your Gold one or not because its not written on it...and honestly i doesnt make a difference whether they know it or not...

 

And my point wasnt to complain about you (i didnt had any reason to do so), our engagement just fitted so good into the topic about too high gearcap  

 

Because it is just fact that my lighter Connie (again not telling which woods i have, so other people can NOT take anything from it about YOUR ship) with 3 speed mods (the best you can get on market) was 0.3 knots slower than yours being much heavier and had triple as much kits on board...

This is just UNDERLINING how gear makes a big difference !!!

Ofc, i also would had probably no chance in a Fight against you even when we would switch ships before combat, but the point is, without that gearcap, there hadnt been any Fight at all because i would had been just sailing away to safety...  

 

So i hope, we can stay friends and btw. i am also eager to tell other people about your generosity, promising me to NOT sink my other 2 Indiamen if you sunk my Connie...and after demasting me completly, agreeing to my offer to board me and sell my ship back to me afterwards in neutral port against a small "ransom"...that was great !!

But again, the story wasnt "Durin is driving a Gold Ship, that bloody bastard", the story was Gold Ships with Mods only Vets have access to (up to this point i am perfectly fine with), coupled with INSANE effect of certain Skillbooks (Art of Ship Handling anywhere...???), coupled with unlocked 5 knowledge slots (and with this i am absolutely not fine anymore !!!)...and if all this wouldnt be enough, coupled with insane amount of experience by certain players, gives "normal" people the feeling of getting "ganked" even when its a "fair" 1vs1 by some Gods of NA  

 

If atleast nothing else, those Skillbooks has to vanish or get nerfed to the bottom

[Sir Max Magic]

4 hours ago, Durin said:

1: true

2: wrong, yours could turn slightly better due to lighter wood

3:wrong, i had all long plus marines and only 5%reload from skills, you had top deck carros, your dps was a lot higher but you made no use of it

4:true

5:wrong, cartagena refit gives plus 2cm wich is nothing

6:wrong, we fought close quater, your carros have better pen then my 12pd long, main dack was same

 

Sorry to tell you and now slowly me get angry, you forgot to mention completly the SKILLBOOK GAP !!!

You have like ALL Vets all 5 Slots unlocked and like all vets you own all the best books !!!

Now equip all 5 Slots with all the best books and on the other side is someone who hasnt unlocked anything or only 1 or 2 and could fit only bad books into...what will be the outcome???

You have much better turning, reloading and whatever else only THROUGH SKILLBOOKS !!!

 

That was from the beginning my point that Skillbooks are a menace and widens the Gap much more but you just wanted to hear "Durin has a Gold Ship"...what a surprising news

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Durin]

17 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

You have much better turning, reloading and whatever else only THROUGH SKILLBOOKS

i captured you ship, therefore i know exactly what you had on there, so i can tell you quite accurately what the differences between our ships are. if you dont want to believe me thats your problem. on the otherhand you have no idea what i had on my ship, my marines for example handycapped my gunnery quite a bit as i told you. so if you want to guess, do so. but dont tell me how superior a ship is you know nothing about.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Durin

[Durin]

32 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

gives "normal" people the feeling of getting "ganked" even when its a "fair" 1vs1

had you been a better shot, you could have demasted me first and i had lost that ship. had you hugged my side your carros could killed me due to superior dps. its not my fault that you commit tactical errors anr only started to fight after you used up all your repairs.

[Durin]

you cant win this argument, also gold ships are no save win. few days ago i sank a gold endy in one broadside from my carro trinc. his endy beeing gold didnt save him from beeing leaked

Edited January 17, 2019 by Durin

[Durin]

tactical erros kill ppl. gold ships dont, they only help you stay alive.

edit: (if you know how to use them)

Edited January 17, 2019 by Durin

[Slim McSauce]

7 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

So. AGAIN. The stack of experience and super mods make decent captains Gods among bunches of casuals.

Exactly. What a useless feature.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[William Death]

IDEA (not a new one):

• Go back to 1/1 repairs, no rum (or only one, if you insist).
• Make all skillbooks and upgrades available in the shop for doubloons and reals. Reals for the lesser stuff, like Pino Ocote, doubloons for the better stuff like French Rig; no crazy prices though...Everyone needs to at least be able to earn a Cartagena or Copper Plating from an evening of doubloon gathering. The best books like the ingredients for Art of Shiphandling or Gunnery Encyclopedia can be quite expensive in doubloons (maybe 5-8k doubloons?). They'd still all be RNG drops too, so you can craft them that way if you're lucky or don't want to spend doubloons.
• Increase the doubloon reward for sinking ships (not the loot in the hold, the actual doubloons that go straight to your captain's chest and determine your standing on the leaderboard).

Then see if quality of PvP increases. I have a feeling it will. Or, at least, nobody can complain they couldn't have the best gear anymore (laziness would be the only excuse they could have).

 

 

Also, @Slim McSauce in case you didn't catch it, I don't think anyone who has replied to your posts, that I saw, was defending gear advantage or advocating more of it. It exists and it makes a difference. We've all said as much.

However, myself and others have attempted to point out that it is not only gear, but that gear combined with skill and experience that makes a difference.

Would you know what to do with one of the ships I showed in my screenshots? Would you know how to make the best use of it and win lots of battles with it....or would you sail it around for a few weeks till it gets sunk/taken by a player who is likely sailing a blue 3/5 ship? Or lose it in a gank? Would a more casual player who has just barely made Commodore know what to do with them?

At what point do you concede the skill part of the equation? Where do you consider the mod advantage to end and the skill advantage to begin?

23 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Top players aren't even good anymore, 
Most of them use these ships to pad their wet skills.
Long gone are the days of ship mastery, 
knowledge is now supplemented

It seems that you focus a lot on the gear and how its obtained, but barely consider the knowledge about the use of that gear. Did you mean to imply that players who use gold ships would be terrible at Naval Action if they didn't have them? That the skill came with the mods/ship and isn't at all related to the amount of experience they've had in PvP? Perhaps I mis-read your posts...but thats what it read like to me.

 

In short, I encourage you to refrain from implying to me (or any other player, for that matter) that gear/fancy ships are why they win. Thats not the full story and to imply that it is smacks of a lofty attitude. Maybe you don't intend it this way, but it sounds like you're saying "They only win because they have gear and play meta gaming. I think others are at least as good or better but they often lose to them and it must be because of these player's superior gear."

You're partially correct, gear helps them win...but they'd probably beat those same players they're sinking in equal or lesser ships too. Skill makes a difference, that's all I'm trying to get across. 

So yes, Naval Action lost some of its extreme skill-based gameplay with the implementation of super mods, unlimited repairs, etc. But it didn't lose it all, not by a long shot. Maybe we'll go back to those old days...but I doubt it.

 

Oh, and a quick note about ship mastery...I'd say it still exists, and far beyond the 5 slot grind. I, for instance, have spent a lot of time in Surprise, Endymion, Constitution, Victory, and Santisima. Surely more than most players...and I can beat (or at least provide a significant challenge to) many/most players in a 1v1 in those ships. Did you know that a Teak/WO Endymion responds much better to her rudder if you keep your speed between 5.5 and 9 knots? Or that Santisima has a high resistance to taking leaks but has one spot where leaks are easiest to shoot? Or that Victory has a cannon "missing" from one of her gundecks (its the entry port), so that throws off your single-shot demasting if you're not prepared for it? Oh, and did you know that if you manual sail properly during a tack, you can almost make a first rate glide through the wind without reversing?

Is this all part of the stuff I learned from getting a purple ship? Surely its not skill or experience showing through...

[Sir Loorkon]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly. What a useless feature.

Experience is no feature.

[Beeekonda]

14 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Experience is no feature.

Its a bug 

[Sir Max Magic]

11 hours ago, Durin said:

i captured you ship, therefore i know exactly what you had on there, so i can tell you quite accurately what the differences between our ships are. if you dont want to believe me thats your problem. on the otherhand you have no idea what i had on my ship, my marines for example handycapped my gunnery quite a bit as i told you. so if you want to guess, do so. but dont tell me how superior a ship is you know nothing about.

 

11 hours ago, Durin said:

had you been a better shot, you could have demasted me first and i had lost that ship. had you hugged my side your carros could killed me due to superior dps. its not my fault that you commit tactical errors anr only started to fight after you used up all your repairs.

 

11 hours ago, Durin said:

you cant win this argument, also gold ships are no save win. few days ago i sank a gold endy in one broadside from my carro trinc. his endy beeing gold didnt save him from beeing leaked

 

11 hours ago, Durin said:

tactical erros kill ppl. gold ships dont, they only help you stay alive.

edit: (if you know how to use them)

I dont know what you always argue about those Gold ships ??

First of all, i didnt had a problem with that you sunk me, i NEVER tried to argue you werent the much better captain, so no need to bash me...  

I stated exactly, ofc you would had won, even when we both were sailing the other ones ship...

 

Additionally to the Topic:

I NEVER said that you were superior because of your Ship ONLY 

I NEVER said you were superior because of better mods ONLY

I NEVER said you won because of 5 and MUCH better skillbooks used on your terms ONLY

 

!!! But I SAID instead, the COMBINATION of all of this, better Ship, better Modules, much better and more Skillbooks, better and much more experienced Capatains leaves newbs, casuals and comebackers no chance !!! THAT was the topic !

 

And ofc ONE cant deny that better Ship, better Modules plus MUCH better and more Skillbooks gives ONE (not YOU in particular !!!) an edge in nearly EVERY aspect of the game !! Art of Ship Handling ALONE gives ONE so much better stats...

 

When you do the math, ofc in situations LIKE ours, People LIKE you have the better Stats in nearly every aspect of the ships compared to people LIKE me...you understand now?

Better people like me can and should do the math...

 

Now all can argue about whether its fine or not that Vets who have everything have the natural right to be superior (all you better Players can argue at what degree...) over newer players by their Ship and Mods and Skillbooks only, NOT to mention their ADDITIONALLY immense more esperience ?!

But all should be aware, its like making a 1 vs 1 with a Level 40 Char against a Level 60 Char in a MOBA game: the lower one has no chance, no matter what he tries...

 

I am done now with that conversation now, i didnt wanted to begin neither a war with you or everyone else of the other vets, i WAS happy meeting you on the battlefield, how it turned out and much more with our conversation after !!! I told EVERYONE i knew in this game, also here in forum, what a generous adversary you were...

But bashing others wasnt in the toolbox of the Captain, i met...

 

So farewell, this whole discussion reminded me again why i had left the game 2 years ago initially

Edited January 18, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Sir Loorkon]

The most interesting part of this game is that it is skillbased (experience based). Gear is important, but it is not the center. 

The most facinating part about the gear is that you can move the performance of a ship in a direction that fits you style of playing the game. This makes gear matter. You like boarding, fit your ship for boarding. You like disabling, fit your ship for penetration and accuracy. You like it the brutal way, go for reload.

You have to have the experience to know what your personal style is and what ship fits to your style best. You have to know that it is better to increase the present good abilities of a ship than to increase the weak. Fitting a ship and finding a ship that matches the play style is experience/skill.

A golden ship with expensive gear - even if metafitted - will not do any good if it does not fit your style. So a good fitted ship in good hands can be a monster. I agree to @Durin and @Licinio Chiavari with there posts and I completely disagree with @Slim McSauce and I assume his opinion that everything is gearbased is founded in a lack of experience. A player with skill knows what skill is worth. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes, but golden setup make any mistakes the veteran might make, irrelevant, when faced with equally skilled but ungeared opponent.

Is really about "easy to forgive mistakes" made by a captain during battle versus the costly mistakes when no gear.

One may make mistakes but be relatively safe from doing them, and even give himself the luxury to make them, because he knows the gear will give relative safe outcome.

Mistakes in age of sail were costly. 

[Durin]

Guys you know that everybody can sail gold ships with naval clock on them right? You just need to be lucky with crafting. Its not like we crafted 100 connies to get one good one. I asked a mate to craft me a few Connies since i lost mine. He was willing to commit the resources for 4 ships. I supplied the doubloons. The last one he build was gold. Had it been blue than id be happy to sail that blue connie like i did in the years befor. I used up my Naval Clock a long tima ago, the one on this ship i looted from a Russian Bellona in the zone. They know how to use upgrades and not let them rott away in their warehouse.

You also have to keep in mind the risk/reward factor. Had i sunk @Sir Max Magic 's Connie i would had looted what? 400 doubloons? Had he won that fight, he would have gotten a ship worth many millions. Gold Connie + Naval Clock and other elite upgrades, lets say 5 Million Reals? Where as his standard ship was worth maybe 500k with those upgrades. If you risk 10 times the value, sure you are entitled to a small advantage?

apart from that Sir Max, had i sailed a fir/fir green shabby connie im sure the result would be the same, as i said befor: your mistakes lost you that fight, nothing else. So i really dont see why you had to announce here that there is a swedish gold connie on the loose in the Caribbean . Now everybody will look for that ship ;(

[Sir Max Magic]

3 hours ago, Durin said:

 

So i really dont see why you had to announce here that there is a swedish gold connie on the loose in the Caribbean . Now everybody will look for that ship ;(

Last addition from me to this subject and maybe the game itsself:

I didnt knew that its such a secret that Vets like you own Gold Ships that noone should talk about ?! If so, i am sorry about this...  

What i did instead is, hiding BY PURPOSE the stats of your ship you told me frankly after the match...and made only COMPARISONS to my ship to give other opponents no clue about your Ship !!!

(not that anybody will remember this conversation when facing you, if hes already remembering your name )

 

...and this as an EXAMPLE for the sole purpose to give additional input to the topic, how much Gold Ships with 3 additional Slots (2 Modules + 1 Trim), 5 Elite Mods and 5 Elite Skillbooks can give a huge Bonus in nearly every aspect of sailing against a Standard 3/5 Ship, which most newer Captains HAD to sail because of all the reasons you know for yourself !!!

 

The gear gap, especially when you take Skillbooks into account, is just too much, period !!!

 

I did the math !!!

Lets say, 2 ships, one perfect Gold Ship owned by a Veteran and one standard blue from an inexperienced Captain, both have the same 3 basic Mods

Disclaimer: i dont have any idea, whether this is "the best" setup or whether there are even better ones possible ??? Its just an Example:

 

2 more Modules: 

- Naval Clock: + 4% Speed

- Elite British Rig Refit: + 6% Turn Speed, + 8 % Yard Turn Speed

1 additional Trim:

- Very fast: + 3% Speed

5 more Knowkedge Slots:

- Art of Ship Handling: + 3% Speed, + 5% Turn Speed, + 10% Rudder Speed, - 6 % max. Roll Angle

- Gunnery Encyclopedia: - 5% Cannon Reload Time, -7% and - 6% Cannon Dispersion, + 3,5% Cannon min/max angle, +5% Firezone angle

- Helm Training: + 3% Turn Speed, + 10 % Rudder Speed

- Powder Monkeys: + 7 % Reloading

- Sailing Combat reports: + 4 % Turn Speed

Summary:

+ 14 % Speed !!!

+ 14 % Turn Speed !!!

+ 8 % Yard Speed !

+ 20 % Rudder Speed

+ 12 % Reloading

+ 5 % Firezone, + 3,5 % Cannon Angle which lets one shoot at worser angles and - 7 % Cannon Dispersion which helps hitting masts better

 

So pls, noone should argue, those arent MASSIVE buffs and wouldnt give Vets additional to their immense Experience a HUGE advantage in a Fight...thats just FACTS !!!

 

Ofc all Vets have the right to say: "We play this game longer than newbs and we tried hard to get all those stuff, so we have all rights to be superior"

Okay, but noone should argue we all being on the same playing field...

 

Over and out

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Durin]

why exactly are you naming some random trims upgrades and books?

i allways equip ships to boost strengths not to compensate a weakness. the connie doesnt turn so theres no reason to try and improve turning, wont happen anyway.

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Durin

[Durin]

i allready told you why you lost. if you think quality and euipment makes so much difference then lets do a 1v1, your blue connie vs a ship you can choose for me

[Durin]

i have zero knowledge on the connie classic for example, how about the best connie you can get vs connie classic with only crap upgrades and zero skills?

[Durin]

and regarding that better euipment gives you and advantage, name me one game where that isnt the case? in other games tho, you would not have any chance with lets say a warrior with green/blue items in WOW vs one that has epic/legendary items. but in this game, skill can defeat opponents with better equipment with ease

[Capn Rocko]

Mods do make a difference. Especially when concentrated in one area (ex: boarding setup, penetration, reload spam, carpenters stacking) HOWEVER you guys make it sound like the players fighting in the 3/5 ships are fighting with no mods at all. The only difference between a 5/5 and a 3/5 is 2 permanent mod slots (they still have 5 knowledge slots).. that is not game breaking whatsoever. I have sunk 5/5 ships in my 3/5 ships and I know many players who still do not have art of ship handling or gunnery encylopedia that kick the shit out of players who do. 

I feel no pity for a player who has no knowledge on their ship and complains about it. And further more, I do not think we should change the game because some players are too lazy to grind knowledge or feel it is game breaking because some players sail around with 2 more permanent mod slots. 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Then no problem if ships were 0/0  

Same vein of thought.

[Crimson Sunrise]

On 1/12/2019 at 12:45 PM, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

I am sure I was and I am. From 21 ships, 3 are purple, rest are blue, from 7th to 2nd rates. I am happy. And for me, that's all that matters.

But apparently many issues, like the one presented here, do impact the average gaming.

why not remove ship improvements, knowledge, upgrade slots and make it more skill based rather then who grinded the most or has the bank to buy all these overpowered books, ships shouldnt be upgradable, ship knowledge is unbalanced, and based on physics none of these ships should be turning so far without sustaining damage from the forces on the hull, the drag from the water and the force from the wind in the sails. no ship should be able to turn or go as fast without something giving out from the strain.