Game inbalances or cheating?

[Captain Mulec]

Can Bellona make perfect tack like smaller ships that dont get into the irons. I mean tack where ship does not stop and go reverse?

[Thonys]

On 1/12/2019 at 8:37 PM, Banished Privateer said:

It still is handicapped by a terrible turn rate. Base speed of it sucks big time too, so you need quite a lot of speed mods to make it "work". Vanilla Connie is just very weak as it is about same speed as light Bucentaures or Bellonas and get obliterated by them. Here is the video of my Connie (sadly, it sank when I dc'ed fighting Russians. I also dc'ed when fighting Yordi's gank fleet once, bad connection at family home).

 

i have told the defs this on the feedback of this ship specialy when using heavyer wood types but

for some reason, it did not come true. and that's is months ago

but the classic is working much better!

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Thonys

[Durin]

I really like the Connie and therfor i would like it to be better with a higher turnrate and more speed. But to be honest it does work fine how it is. It can escape vs SOL's upwind if need be and vs frigs its king.

Got one since 3-4 days after the last big wipe when you needed pvp marks for the permit. That thing saw a lot of action and so far nobody took it off me wich speaks for the ship.

[Durin]

4 hours ago, greybuscat said:

They often get absolutely destroyed

In my experinence the ship quality and equipment hardly makes a difference in those situations. Tactical errors do. You only need to turn the wrong way once and you are dead. Tack the wind at the wrong time and you are dead. Hang around to fire that last broadside befor hiding your weak side and you are dead. Forgot about your heel and get leaks and you are dead. Shoot hull while the enemy shoots masts an you are dead.

did all of those myself often enough, makes a lot more difference to the outcome of a fight then anything else

[Licinio Chiavari]

2 hours ago, Captain Mulec said:

Can Bellona make perfect tack like smaller ships that dont get into the irons. I mean tack where ship does not stop and go reverse?

I do not think so.

May be a very fast, manouvrable and possibly one with Pirate (why first and foremost?).

Still sounds really unlikely.

[Captain Mulec]

Well the Bellona i mentioned to you could do just that, tack continously. I was like WTF. You just dont see Bellona tack as a Snow.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

7 hours ago, Captain Mulec said:

Well the Bellona i mentioned to you could do just that, tack continously. I was like WTF. You just dont see Bellona tack as a Snow.

Can be done. Even with the Connie (classic)  goes down to 2kt and regains - depends on extra refit and the 5 books and the 5 modules.

That's how far we go with the "personalization" of the models.

[admin]

On 1/13/2019 at 2:17 AM, William Death said:

Connie balance, in particular is tricky. 

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

[Suricato Rojo]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.



 

I guess I you buff Endy and Trinco to 3rd you will also buff rate the Indefatigable which is more 3rdish than the others...?

 

[Sir Loorkon]

Lowering the Connis class to 3rd rate will be a nerf because some of the books you can use will perform worse (e.g. Powder Monkeys). So if you want to buff her, this would be the wrong direction. Second thing that comes to my mind is: Would the Aggamemnon stay 4th rate than? I always thought the Agga was a little stronger than the Conni an the Conni should be a little faster, but making Conni a 3rd rate and let Agga be a 4th rate feels not good.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Sir Loorkon

[RKY]

29 minutes ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

that would make interesting ship pools. Dont't forget about indef though, the ship has the same broadside weight as a bellona.

Although I do not think you should bother too much about ship class. BR is more interesting, right now All the BR are too low except for most 6th and 7th rate.

the 2 main 1st rate should be well above 1k br , while 2nd should be at the current br of 1st rate. it would bring a lot more variety if you tie ow roe to BR like patrol started to introduce.

Also it would make aga and wapen more viable ship.

br:

1st: >1k

2nd>800

3rd>600

4th>400

5th>200

6th>100

7th<100

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by RKY

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, RKY said:

that would make interesting ship pools. Dont't forget about indef though, the ship has the same broadside weight as a bellona.

Although I do not think you should bother too much about ship class. BR is more interesting, right now All the BR are too low except for most 6th and 7th rate.

the 2 main 1st rate should be well above 1k br , while 2nd should be at the current br of 1st rate. it would bring a lot more variety if you tie ow roe to BR like patrol started to introduce.

Also it would make aga and wapen more viable ship.

br:

1st: >1k

2nd>800

3rd>600

4th>400

5th>200

6th>100

7th<100

 

totally agree, the br on 1st rates should be much higher where the line is drawn between hms victory and bucentaure (victory being slightly higher), and same for pavel vs bellona, and wasa vs agamemnon.

[Durin]

1 hour ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly.

Please dont, that would brake her. She has some strenghts and you can make her work allready. A historical accurate Constitution is impossible within the game balance, as she was a 13 knot for her size well turning Liveoak framed and Whiteoak planked ship. That obviously would make her the new meta and you would not see any other ship anymore

Edit:

If you want to buff her, id say slightly increase her mast thickness to increase the chance of survival when targeted by SOL's

Edited January 14, 2019 by Durin

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

At this rate, we will never see first rates in PBs.

but thats the thing, 1st rates wasnt the go to ships in war because they were to expensive. Fleets had base of 3rd rates as main battleships and a few second and first rates to top it off. now its Buc meta because its 460 br vs l'ocean is 900 and bellona is 450 which makes no sense, the reason people dont use 3rd rate is because the 18pd cannons are useless vs 1st and 2nd rates

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

By RN standards, the US frigates were 5th rates though. 1 gun deck. 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/243286.html

The funny part is the 6th rates  - basically cruise frigates with less than 32 guns ? ( someone correct please )

So, number of decks, number of guns.

 

 

[Thonys]

1 hour ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

good proposal i think. 

the normal conny is a heavy frigate lo/wo what as this moment fallen into the gap of un sailable ships. (to heavy on one side, to perform well against smaller and even bigger ships) 

the Connie classic is sailing much better atm 

the Trincomalee and the Endymion can replace the 4 rate, normal Connie

 

just a proposal: the normal 3 rate could have a dedicated fire ship bonus added to it to become  the niche(brander /burner /fireship) (testing??) 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Thonys

[Thonys]

1 hour ago, Suricato Rojo said:

I guess I you buff Endy and Trinco to 3rd you will also buff rate the Indefatigable which is more 3rdish than the others...?

 

that is because of the carronades 

if you put normal guns on it is just a normal feeling 5 rate 

so that ship can stay at is place

[admin]

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

That has no sense. 

Yes (no sense) if there is no limit on classes

No (makes complete sense) if there are only 7 ranks possible (due to code complications)

 

If there is only 7 classes possible, then there is definitely a lack of ships in 3rd class and there is definitely a huge gap between lower and and higher end 5th rates.
 

Sorry for off topic. This is probably not the best topic to discuss constitution etc. 

[Audacious]

2 hours ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

Remove it from regular crowd and make it hard to get. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

That has no sense. 

We will have third rate variety as soon as the new 3 third rates are added.

Make a new class if you like, called Superfrigates. And place there the conie, trinc, inde and endy.

 

What about the Bell Poul and Essex would they be the big boys in the light ships group than?  I feel like 5th rate is the catch all class for ships.  Still think the LRQ needs to be 5th rate still.

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

At this rate, we will never see first rates in PBs.

A lot of ports need way higher BR's, we have to many ports with very low BR's so that only 6-10 player teams can fight in them.  Most of the very improtant ports should have 25 man teams. Well unless you plan to bring all 1st rates than you prob only get about half that in there so you got to plan the BR out right.  I know a lot of guys that stopped playing simply cause there are no more 25 vs 25 port battles with line ships.

38 minutes ago, admin said:

Yes (no sense) if there is no limit on classes

No (makes complete sense) if there are only 7 ranks possible (due to code complications)

 

If there is only 7 classes possible, then there is definitely a lack of ships in 3rd class and there is definitely a huge gap between lower and and higher end 5th rates.
 

Sorry for off topic. This is probably not the best topic to discuss constitution etc. 

You could give the Connie and Aggie back there old stats that was OP back when there was no other ships in that class and bump them up to 3rd rate.  As you mention make the normal frigates Indfat, Endy, Trinc 4th rates.  Wappen and Inger I'm just not sure what we should do with them, make them the heavy 4ths out of the bunch?   I mean we have Exxes and Bell Poule to play that roll for the 5th rates.  

[admin]

1 minute ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

You could give the Connie and Aggie back there old stats that was OP back when there was no other ships in that class and bump them up to 3rd rate.  As you mention make the normal frigates Indfat, Endy, Trinc 4th rates.  Wappen and Inger I'm just not sure what we should do with them, make them the heavy 4ths out of the bunch?   I mean we have Exxes and Bell Poule to play that roll for the 5th rates.  

The overall goal is somewhat defined (final pre-release rebalance). 

There must be common cheap(er) ships in every class (with the exception of ships of the line)
There must be over performing, harder to get ships in every class.
The gaps within the class must not be too high (low end vs high end) to support expected experience in missions and reinforcements
The Battle ratings of the ships (BR) must be related to class (and slightly tuned for performance) not like it is happening right now
 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

Admin, I believe that you should rather create a subclass of frigates - heavy (Indefatigable, Endymion, Trinco) historically labelled 50-gun frigates (despite the obvious fact that not all frigates in the class had 50 guns), medium (the generic frigate, p.frigate, Belle Poule, L'Hermione etc) and light frigates (Surp, reno, cerb, pandora, le requin, herc etc), this way you should also more accurately be able to create more diverse 5th rate missions because the difficulty with 5th rate missions I tend to agree to.

2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

That has no sense. 

We will have third rate variety as soon as the new 3 third rates are added.

Make a new class if you like, called Superfrigates. And place there the conie, trinc, inde and endy.

 

Agreed.

EDIT: Keep the 4th rate class for the ships like connie, aga etc.. Making the connie a third rate is, I believe, a mistake since historical classifications of 3rd rates is SoL and there is no way a connie would be able to maintain its position in a line.. Otherwise it is no longer a connie and should be relabelled and I do believe that there is value in not having fantasy ships in the game..

Edited January 14, 2019 by Guest

[Durin]

59 minutes ago, admin said:

there is definitely a lack of ships in 3rd class

add the Montañés please

edit: i know its not your priority at the moment. but until then there is no need to mess with existing ship classification imo

Edited January 14, 2019 by Durin

[AeRoTR]

About expoits, I had one incedent, but I could not report it at that time.

I was boarding a good player, so I was killing him, he disengaged, it was in a tacking position. So I did not let him complete the tack. As soon as I had %50 preparation, I hit boarding key again, and boom the guy had %100 preparation, while I was at %50. How is this possible ? His ship was not Pfrig or Le Req, it was indef as I remember, so not default %50 prep ready. I had more than enough crew ready at boarding station.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

A lot of ports need way higher BR's, we have to many ports with very low BR's so that only 6-10 player teams can fight in them.  Most of the very improtant ports should have 25 man teams. Well unless you plan to bring all 1st rates than you prob only get about half that in there so you got to plan the BR out right.  I know a lot of guys that stopped playing simply cause there are no more 25 vs 25 port battles with line ships.

the br limit makes it possible for clan of smaller size to have a chance to defend ports though, but numbers should matter as you more or less say, they dont as it is now because of buc meta, but if they increase 2nd and 1st rates br I would imagine we would see larger fleets of 3rd rates with mixes of 2nd and 1st and maybe even 4th rates.