Le Req with carros?

[Farrago]

@Licinio Chiavari in another thread you said "a Requin can lose badly to a bunch of smaller ships or to a single nicely geared and handled Privateer. Especially so stupid requin sailing with Carronades."

I get the first part. But if you wouldn't mind, would you explain why you consider equipping the Req with carros to be stupid? I always thought the far superior damage of the carros would be desirable, especially considering the Req's manuverabily.

[William Death]

30 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

This I could definitely see being a feature in the future, A lighter ship needs more ballasts to sit steadily in the water. Maybe a player can set how his own ballasts and risk floating higher in the water with more heel if he wants a ship that is above average in speed.

No, no, no. It doesn't quite work like that.

Two related points were brought up:

• Hull speed: 1.34 * sqrt (waterline length in feet)     this is the general form of the equation that gives the theoretical "maximum" speed that a displacement hull can reach (all sailing vessels barring a few modern designs are displacement hulls). The 1.34 is a general constant, it can vary a bit from ship to ship but generally gives a rough idea. Whether or not you reach this speed is dependent on how much horsepower you provide. Give enough sail area and you're guaranteed to reach that speed...assuming your rigging holds and you don't capsize from all that canvas .     
  
  Now, before you think this is any sort of hard and fast rule...plug in some numbers....just about anything over 110 feet WL and you're looking at 14kn+.  We know, from historical records, some ships went faster than the general hull speed formula allows for their waterline length (the replica Lynx [WL 72'] logged over 15kn sailing downwind with a furled foretopsail [sourced via their Instagram]...yet the formula says their hull speed is only 11.37 kn). Conversely, some ships never reach their hull speed: hull speed of Constitution, by the general formula, is 17.73kn....she was quick but not that quick. 
  
  So really, its not a rule; more like a guideline. Give enough power and you'll exceed hull speed (even to the point where the vessel attempts to plane off), but that is not efficient use of power (it is funny though).

 

• Ballast: it doesn't work the way you think it works. You have to get the ship within an acceptable waterline range or you risk being dangerously unstable/unable to carry a full press of canvas. Ships carried rock ballast if they sailed "empty" and threw it overboard when they loaded cargo (there are literally islands made of ballast rocks near some of the old American seaports that exported a lot of goods). Dumping supplies/cannons/water to gain speed was a last ditch effort to escape a pursuing enemy because at that point you have no other options.
  
  This is why cargo weight slowing you down is a silly 'feature.' You don't intentionally set sail without being ballasted properly. What we should have instead, is a repair kit box that you fill in any port with 10 repairs. If you want more you can carry them in your hold for a speed penalty. Then whatever you add in your cargo hold gives a small speed nerf. An Indiaman with a full hold of Textile Machinery should be only a few percent slower than one "empty" (remember that means loaded with ballast to an acceptable waterline). That should please both the "sacrifice is balance!" and "realism is balance!" groups.

 

But again, balancing speeds is easy. First: reduce the gap between fir/fir and lo/wo. Wood type doesn't affect speed that much IRL and its bad for the game too. Second: diminishing returns for mod stacking-->best mod is 100% effective, second best is 80%, next is 70%, 50%, etc. 

 

Unpopular opinion: the game was better when there was only 4% difference between fir and live oak and we only had 2 speed mods and 2 sail force mods. (all but the sail force mods were craftable, too).

 

 

On topic:  carronades vs longs for Requin: 

Going to shallows? Carronades because almost everyone is running them there. Also, at the ranges you're going to usually be trying to hit those little ships at...you'll be in prime carro range.
Hunting alone somewhere? Either...but consider longs because you'll always have the option to disengage using chain at ranges where carros wouldn't *quite* be as effective. Also long 9s can demast larger ships slightly easier than 32 carros.

 

But  @HachiRoku is correct...the recent (over the past year or so) patches really reduced the viability of fighting at range. I fought a decent player sailing a carro Hercules with my Surprise (long 9s and 18pd carros). At a range where his carros wouldn't pen my hull, he could simply turn a tiny bit and bounce my long 9s. No point in trying to do anything with that. If I'd had 32 carros he would have wrecked me up close because his broadside is still more powerful than Surprise's. 

[HachiRoku]

ever since the chain patch was added the long gun is pretty much useless IMO. I still consider the chain patch to be the second worse choice after the repairs the devs have ever made. Its completely nonsensical. They added it. Noone like it and just are to stubborn to change it. Taking advantage of the range against carros is just useless because the way ships can turn and angle so fast. You never sink ships at long range because its just to easy for them to hide bad sides. Shallow ships take even less advantage of long guns since waves. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Licinio Chiavari]

3 hours ago, McKillen said:

Are you sure you sail a requin and not a L’ocean? Both start with L so a misunderstanding could be understandable. But I have outran privateers and lynxes before in my requin from pirates at mortimer before so euh, the numbers you see are spot on, maybe your ship was full of mods or doubloons from your mighty hunting sessions but it is 100% easy to run from a privateer. The control perk does stop you from leaving instantly but it doesnt help nuch when you either sink or just flat out can’t catch the ship. If you want more proof then i invite you to take your privateer and try to catch my requin. Good luck

I suppose a lone raiding Requin being nicely fitted.

How many same-level geared Privateer do you routinely meet?

Even a not Requin heavy user like Banished puts on her elite pirate. How many Privateers with elite rig you met? That's indeed not relevant OW speed wise.

So: how many with copper+NHR+AoSH to start with?

[traitorous mctraitoro]

LOLLOL 

I can't believe people have to get graphs out and write paragraph after paragraph just to explain what is blatently obvious. How are people so deluded.

Is licinio even playing this game, or just trolling

Edited December 27, 2018 by traitorous mctraitoro

[Sir Texas Sir]

On 12/26/2018 at 7:58 PM, Released Privateer said:

1. Now explain why Requin would run away at the direction that Privateer is faster? I don't think that sailing the direction in favour of your opponent is logical? smart? 

2. Also, explain your genius thinking how 15.5 knots ship is supposed to catch 15.5 knots ship? Maybe you have some brilliant math equation proving that 2 equal speed objects moving the same direction will eventually meet each other in the same spot, hmm. That could be awarded Noble price from physics!

Remember that this is the guy that is very well known for doing nothing but camping KPR in a LRQ and killing noobs and casuals. I'm sure in all those lovely victims of his he gain some sort of experience.   I'm sure he might of been able to kill a LRQ with a prince.  Than remember after all I did demast a Herc with 6 pb Med on a Trader Brig.  The Herc player was so bad that if I didn't have a loaded down ship I would of prob after that turned and finished him off, but the cargo and the fact he had two AI snows (killing my other two trader brigs, sinking not capturing).   I'm sure in all his great fights he's had his fair share of poor players that he was able to do such and such with.

17 hours ago, traitorous mctraitoro said:

LOLLOL 

I can't believe people have to get graphs out and write paragraph after paragraph just to explain what is blatently obvious. How are people so deluded.

Is licinio even playing this game, or just trolling

If it wasn't for those charts on kills I would say trolling, but he seems pretty dang good at killing noobs and casuals around KPR area from what I seen in combat news over the past year.

[Licinio Chiavari]

13 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Remember that this is the guy that is very well known for doing nothing but camping KPR in a LRQ and killing noobs and casuals. I'm sure in all those lovely victims of his he gain some sort of experience.   I'm sure he might of been able to kill a LRQ with a prince.  Than remember after all I did demast a Herc with 6 pb Med on a Trader Brig.  The Herc player was so bad that if I didn't have a loaded down ship I would of prob after that turned and finished him off, but the cargo and the fact he had two AI snows (killing my other two trader brigs, sinking not capturing).   I'm sure in all his great fights he's had his fair share of poor players that he was able to do such and such with.

If it wasn't for those charts on kills I would say trolling, but he seems pretty dang good at killing noobs and casuals around KPR area from what I seen in combat news over the past year.

As I repeated more than a few times, NA is more "experience" centered than "skill" centered. So with xebec I gathered quite some.
Honestly, they are months almost not farming KPR as in the past. And hunting more in PZ.
Is it more appreciable? And I did a couple PZ with Renomee in Nassau/Deadman... doing the same I did with Requin. Again: NA is matter of mainly experience. What one get as experience with a ship, often can be used to be better with others too.

About "only noobs and casuals", they are a bunch. Still majority of prey are still top rank so technically not newbies.
I duelled Sverne Req v Req. He will point that he was on his alt. I'd point I was raiding fitted, with only AoSH as shiny book and Elite Pirate like him. One hour and half later I sunk him. It was close and interesting. And quite stressing.

Hulio and I attacked Durin on his Bellona with our 2 requins; I do not think it could be defined an unbalanced battle.
He was very close to die. Even after 893 crew killed by me we were still unable to stop and board him due to combo DD+rum. Still he could confirm he sweated a lot to get out safely.
I think we made the mistake of trying to board him in place of simply hugging him.

About killing a Requin with a Prince: never tried. Technically I see limited reasons using a Prince. I killed Requin with Privateer (another ship I love to use).

[jodgi]

3 hours ago, Tindahbawx said:

What site is this? Looks handy.

You're welcome!

[traitorous mctraitoro]

I like the chain patch tbh. At least the increased damage part.

As for why he said caros are stupid. I imagine because he doesn't use cannons he just boards so only needs to chain to death or demast. I guess.

[Licinio Chiavari]

@Farrago, and completing first reply, 32 carros are strong on a requin as on a Niagara with, IMO, a big difference.

A Niagara can be catched by a lot of bigger ships. Therefore it's great having some punch coupled with good speed and better turning.

From a Requin perspective it's different. She's not espected to engage by guns bigger stuff AND only ships who can realistically hunt her are other Requins and someway Princes and Privateers.

Therefore, gun wise, only requin enemy is another requin.
In a Requin duel carro v longs 99% (granted being able to use long on low ship at distance) the long will win: keeping a decent distance and angling carros will not penetrate while long 9pds will (slowly) dismantle your enemy.

Moreover, Requin is espected to be mainly a strong boarder.
Guns, against a prey, are needed for chaining and sterncamping as needed: longs are better with better precision.

Granted the above and having tested both ways, I always use longs.

 

@Hachiroku.
Yes and Nay.

Aiming longs at mid range from a very low ship (like requin or privateer) is very difficult. True. And it's true you have to watch the incoming waves and wait the right time to shoot sometimes. Still it's viable. Requires quite a lot practice giving back a different feeling than on frigates; again you have limited time to aim properly and fire before you have to angle or your enemy will do.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Licinio Chiavari]

16 minutes ago, traitorous mctraitoro said:

I like the chain patch tbh. At least the increased damage part.

As for why he said caros are stupid. I imagine because he doesn't use cannons he just boards so only needs to chain to death or demast. I guess.

Ask plenty Requin I sunk.
A requin CANT be boarded if she doesnt want to.

Requins are killed and hunted on requin with guns.

PS: let me know how I can kill 4-3-2 rates without sterncamping...

Edited December 26, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Licinio Chiavari]

41 minutes ago, Released Privateer said:

... and if you wanna chase him, he will use stern guns to chain you and as we speak about Privateer, it has no bow chasers so good luck chasing the Requin. 

Forgot this part.

May be you forget that

A. Privateer is faster than Requin. So no need to chain down to slow.
B. Privateer has not chasers... so she has "control".
C. Therefore Privateer has no need to tag.
D. So she can stay clear of enemy chasers... or obliging enemy to slow down to aim stern chasers.

 

[Slim McSauce]

37 minutes ago, traitorous mctraitoro said:

I like the chain patch tbh. At least the increased damage part.

As for why he said caros are stupid. I imagine because he doesn't use cannons he just boards so only needs to chain to death or demast. I guess.

Chain patch was half implemented imo. As I remember towards the end of the actual discussions for it the consensus was to limit ALL special ammo types, grape, chain, and limit repairs on top of that, which makes sense. Chain used at limitation and at good times, Grape used at at limitation and at good times, double ball and double charge used at limitations and at good times. Each of these falls on their face after you use them, and then the results are repaired again and again.

Goes back to me saying the devs don't know when to put a closer on a battle. Instead they go on forever which wow, what a burn out for someone who doesn't have 3 hours a day to play. Basically you can't hope play the game without more time. It's a shame for a lot of people who bought the game  that we don't see them online.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

28 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

PS: let me know how I can kill 4-3-2 rates without sterncamping...

You can't, but to come more than 50m to a SOL would mean a volley of swivel guns and musket fire. Irrealism creates more irrealism.

[Licinio Chiavari]

12 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

You can't, but to come more than 50m to a SOL would mean a volley of swivel guns and musket fire. Irrealism creates more irrealism.

All sterncamping, done by any nimbler ship vs a bigger, is son of irrealism: ships too nimble.

[Licinio Chiavari]

7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

so true. devs should stick to what's real and not what they think is real, thing's are so much better when you align yourself with what actually happened. Ramming, Repairing, unlimited grape, no swivel guns, no deck fire. All just serve to muddy down people idea of what an Age of Sail is.

Read the books and watch the films, this game makes a minor joke of what naval combat is. If I was in any position to, I would be questioning whether the developer has what it takes to put thesethings together to make a great game that serves people's sensibilities, not fights against it.

Mast snapping at full speed vs full speed at 100+ mt?

 

[Slim McSauce]

47 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Mast snapping at full speed vs full speed at 100+ mt?

What are you trying to say here? I want to know m8

Edited December 27, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

The speed cap, (like the fundamental speed of light) warps space and time the closer you get to it.
The devs use a total speed cap instead of just balancing out the ships in their game XD

Edited December 27, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Licinio Chiavari]

Just now, Slim McSauce said:

The speed cap, (like the fundamental speed of light) warps space and time the closer you are to it.
The devs use a total speed cap instead of just balancing out the ships in their game XD

Another good point.

Critical (or hull - unsure of english wording) speed should be the way

[Slim McSauce]

7 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Another good point.

Critical (or hull - unsure of english wording) speed should be the way

Ooo that sounds very good. Some kind of limit for the base builds of each ship with each wood. How would you think with the percentages should go? 10% from base? 20%?
for clarification by base I mean oak/oak, which is where ship speed is measured. So 10% base speed for a reno would be like 14.3 knts, which is pretty normal for a corvette built for speed
 

now take a corvette built for armor and you get a lo-wo renny that tops out at 12 knts and is still weaker than medium 5th rate lol
So why is total speed being capped and not balance within the ship speeds themselves? It's totally wrong.

Watch devs, you put a speed cap of 15.5 and then you create ships that were clearly meant to go 15.5+ because you make fir/fir anything supersonic for it's class and put a bunch of speed mods in the game to stack. 

So now what happens to a LO/WO renny that tops out at best 12 knts with all the neccessary tank mods for slow ships that are susceptible to gank.
Way to go genius you've created useless builds in your game. That's not the only one just about anything below 13 knts is unuseable and anything about 15knts is uncatachable. You dunderhead devs, you're causing the retarded ship balance with your retarded ship balancing

Edited December 27, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Licinio Chiavari]

The real maximum speed of any hull depends on shape and waterline lenght.

Any ship should have a base speed like now and a maximum speed. With wood (and weights in general) hurting less... because if a ship is over lighty... she gets some extra ballast.

Depending on mods, fitting, and also woods you can get up to maximum one.

Better quality of built or mods, easier to get closer to maximum.

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

What are you trying to say here? I want to know m8

Another total unreal feature... Sniping masts from full speed rolling deck ship to another one 100-200+ mt away.

As stated one million time: mast fell. Yes. VERY SELDOM due to direct damage but due to rigging damage.
And this direct damage... ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO BE DONE ON PURPOSE aside spraying in the masts.

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Released Privateer said:

Well, if your Privateer can go faster than 15.5 knots and maintain that speed while being chained by a Requin, that's some serious miracle there breaking the rules of the game. Given also the limited chain on Privateer due to small gun count, after 1-2 rig reps (If Privateer ever gets a chance to shoot chain at Requin), chase is not possible anymore. Requin gets much more chain due to its 6 chasers and it pretty much uses chain only on the stern.

The only ship valid for chasing a Requin could be Prince, but it's still very hard. As I used Prince in hundreds of battles, some against Requins, I would say the odds are simply 50/50, depending if your opponent Requin has Elite Pirate/Pirate Rig and if he does something stupid. I speak mostly from my own experience @Licinio Chiavari as I've used almost every ship in the game to the great extent with little exceptions like Pickles. I've been hunting using Lynxes, Privateers, Princes, Gunboats, Snows and I've been killing DLC ships on many occasions and I've been using Hercules' and Requins in many battles as well. I've been on both sides of barricades, I know the strong sides and weaknesses. I know the bugs and unbalanced parts of them too. I don't want to sound too cocky and still, Requin is closer to being balanced than Hercules, but it's not fully balanced yet and it still has bugs that can be exploited. 

My Privateer t/t with Elite Pirate "flys" 15.5 from close haul to broad reach. No Requin is faster. And close haul I keep 15.5 kts even with 80% sails.
So I can keep up an Elite pirate rigged Requin for long... and a normal pirate rigged one in any direction even if damaged... but (especially a carro requin vs my longs) I'll never has to repair hull.

So, again: I have no need to chain a requin.

Thanks again for confirming Requin is far from so called P2W.

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Released Privateer said:

Funny, as I used Requins with 32pd carros to sink bigger ships, 5th rates, 4th rates, 3rd rates, 2nd rates. I'm not sure if I've sunk and 1st rates with broadside fire, but I'm sure I've been hugging them. I am sure you're familiar with "hugging" tactic and Requin sits very low in the water.

it's using a requin like a Niagara  

I prefer sterncamp as needed and brutal boarding against bigger stuff. Again simlar far low ship, as stated: mid range gunnery.

 

EDIT: I hugged sometimes even if a bit unreal technique. That said... 

I do not consider hugging like doing a gunnery duel

Edited December 27, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Slim McSauce]

9 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

The real maximum speed of any hull depends on shape and waterline lenght.

Any ship should have a base speed like now and a maximum speed. With wood (and weights in general) hurting less... because if a ship is over lighty... she gets some extra ballast.

Depending on mods, fitting, and also woods you can get up to maximum one.

Better quality of built or mods, easier to get closer to maximum.

This I could definitely see being a feature in the future, A lighter ship needs more ballasts to sit steadily in the water. Maybe a player can set how his own ballasts and risk floating higher in the water with more heel if he wants a ship that is above average in speed.

Very good idea @admin

Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

Another total unreal feature... Sniping masts from full speed rolling deck ship to another one 100-200+ mt away.

As stated one million time: mast fell. Yes. VERY SELDOM due to direct damage but due to rigging damage.
And this direct damage... ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO BE DONE ON PURPOSE aside spraying in the masts.

This is true! Ball to rigging does nothing. Maybe rigging needs it's own hitbox from sails and masts, it's what's missing here for sure.

[Licinio Chiavari]

13 minutes ago, Released Privateer said:

1. Now explain why Requin would run away at the direction that Privateer is faster? I don't think that sailing the direction in favour of your opponent is logical? smart? 

2. Also, explain your genius thinking how 15.5 knots ship is supposed to catch 15.5 knots ship? Maybe you have some brilliant math equation proving that 2 equal speed objects moving the same direction will eventually meet each other in the same spot, hmm. That could be awarded Noble price from physics!

Because a not elite rigged requin is slower and not capped.

Because a Privateer is VASTLY faster in OW and VASTLY nimbler... so Privateer will choose the tag, both distance and position: like the right distance and being upwind.

That said. OBVIOUSLY a skilled requin user will no be beaten by same skilled privateer... like a skilled Snow will not succeed in sterncamping a skilled Agamennon.
Like a skilled Prince will not beat a same skilled requin because the latter knows the weaknesses of the prince and will exploit them and not let prince exploiting his.

Skill (and I prefer more calling it experience) can fill the ship gap, in some cases. Like this one.

But getting back to the topic... a requin with longs will be able to defend from this kind of attack (both from long geared Priv or Prince). A carroed one will be a sitting duck with limited options aside hoping being able to chain with stern chasers.

That was the original point.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari