A Controversial Subject.

[staun]

This is your suggestion once more.

So you actually would punish players for sailling a dlc ship,

Dlc. same work in mats and Lh. No cost to build, but no insurrance, so you don't get covered the cost for mats.

Normal ships. same work mats and Lh. Cost to build but insurrance covers the cost of building the ship, both in mats an the real for building.

On top of that you will make them redeem only once a day, not be able to sell it ore capture it.

Is it just because it is a dlc ship it should be worse than other ship?  But you are right with your idea, the only reason to buy a dlc ship would be you like it,

 

Edited 1 hour ago by staun

Edited December 22, 2018 by staun

[Thonys]

1 minute ago, staun said:

Those 4 herc is with the system we have now. Is that the same system you suggest? No it is not. So go look on your own idea once more and tell my why dlc owner in your idea should be worse of than non dlc owner, 

not worse, but equal. on mats and LH  (and no reals) 

[staun]

6 minutes ago, Thonys said:

not worse, but equal. on mats and LH  (and no reals) 

It would cost more in real to build and lose a dlc ship compared to a normal ship,

At the same time you would would restrict it from trading, so you can't make a profit on it. On top of that you would make a redeem timer on it. So by no standard it the crafting of those ships equal. Why just not come out of the closet and say you don't want to have dlc ship in the game.

But an interesting idea you have about som ship not being able to be sold. How about make all ships from 3 rate and up not tradeble. Think it is in line with your idea ore maybe total remove the possibility to trade ships.

Edited December 22, 2018 by staun

[Thonys]

10 minutes ago, staun said:

It would cost more in real to build and lose a dlc ship compared to a normal ship,

At the same time you would would restrict it from trading, so you can't make a profit on it. On top of that you would make a redeem timer on it. So by no standard it the crafting of those ships equal. Why just not come out of the closet and say you don't want to have dlc ship in the game.

no ...now you are laying words in my mouth.

it is fine to have DLC ships in the game (just like paint and other stuff)

you see constitution classic cost you also dubloons  so there is an effort to get those ships (what is fine)

the Hercules does not cost you anything just mouse clicks 

and i don't like that, compared with shipbuilders who have to make their own ships what is time-consuming and a lot of work (for some at least)

so only a permit in my eyes is more than enough. (having a DLC is only with no REals costs, what is a more than a  nice benefit for having a DLC ship ) 

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Thonys

[staun]

26 minutes ago, Thonys said:

no ...now you are laying words in my mouth.

it is fine to have DLC ships in the game (just like paint and other stuff)

you see constitution classic cost you also dubloons  so there is an effort to get those ships (what is fine)

the Hercules does not cost you anything just mouse clicks 

and i don't like that, compared with shipbuilders who have to make their own ships what is time-consuming and a lot of work (for some at least)

so only a permit in my eyes is more than enough. (having a DLC is only with no REals costs, what is a more than a  nice benefit for having a DLC ship ) 

 

The constitution  is not a Dlc. Ore have I missed a patch.

Again you keep taking the the Dlc as it is now, not talking on your own idea about what you think Dlc ships should be.

I have 3 times copy pasted your idea. Try to read it. Real cost is no cost because of insurrance. It is actually more expensive to lose a Dlc than a normal ship because of the insurrance. Take a look at the total cost and then what you get back from insurrance.

Your idea have the same demand for LH and materiale for both normal ships and Dlc. But the total cost in real to craft a Dlc and lose it is bigger than normal ships. On top of that you want to hit it with a cooldown and not being able trade. Wirh your idea all you get is the right to make a Dlc, But on total cost and trade value you lose. Why I ask once more should Dlc ships be worse off?

[HachiRoku]

I cannot understand why some people refuse to accept it is P2W. Most people agree though. 

[Grundgemunkey]

 

5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I cannot understand why some people refuse to accept it is P2W. Most people agree though. 

same reason people refuse to accept they gank and seal club ... when everyone knows who they are ...

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Grundgemunkey said:

 

same reason people refuse to accept they gank and seal club ... when everyone knows who they are ...

We have all done it to be fair. But I get what you mean. 

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

We have all done it to be fair. But I get what you mean. 

my point is you will say you have ... I have .... some say they never have ... and they wont accept its p2w either

[staun]

16 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I cannot understand why some people refuse to accept it is P2W. Most people agree though. 

Why don’t you find the definitions that slim posted a page ore 2 back. Answer those and tell why you from those definitions see the Dlc ships as P2W, and not just everything you says is a universal fact that everybody have to accept.

The fact is, if all you say is right and the only true fact and those that disagree with you is  wrong, Well then they might just close every post after you have had your word. 

[HachiRoku]

14 minutes ago, staun said:

Why don’t you find the definitions that slim posted a page ore 2 back. Answer those and tell why you from those definitions see the Dlc ships as P2W, and not just everything you says is a universal fact that everybody have to accept.

The fact is, if all you say is right and the only true fact and those that disagree with you is  wrong, Well then they might just close every post after you have had your word. 

All I said is that a DLC ships are cheaper to "craft", faster to "craft" and require no buildings to "craft"

And I quote you: 

pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If we should go with that, well guess we only can have paint and flags in the game. That is if we take a hardcore approce to the P2W. But from what I so far have seen, the 2 ships havent tipped any balance, so skilled player cant still win, ore players get an sigfinicant advantage. Would actually with the new br think a fleet of crafteble ships would do fair against them in a pb. But not sure. The only one i can remember was when Havoc was Dutch and killed a gb fleet in a pb, As I remember havoc was the only one on Herc.

 

 

You even linked the definition of pay to win and still deny it is p2w. Tipp: The faster rate is the key. 

 

More sources. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

Pay-to-win mechanics[edit]

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.

In this case items are ships. In order to get a ship that is comparable to a herc or requin you are required to do more than a player who has the dlc. I am done with arguing with you because I am sick of wasting energy on someone that just refuses to get it. 

 

[Thonys]

13 hours ago, staun said:

That is covered a bit back. It is clearly P2W. Only flag is an acceptable Dlc right now. Only cosmetic is not P2W. So flag, paint, But they need to be account bound so they can’t be used for trade. Name change would be an acceptable Dlc, But not nation change.

We don’t need to worry about funding the games. The cosmetic Dlc will flood the game wirh money. With only cosmetic Dlc player will come back in numbers and raise the pop of the server. All will be good again.

I agree with your post here ...

Forger DLC has to get rid of the Nation change option

Its a  deliberate Human power shift for the server, what brakes the entire initial power balance for nations 

Forger DLC should only be a  NAME changer. 

remember when rediii left the dutch and went to the brits, (his entire clan followed the leader). 3 days later players who did not have the  DLC forger left also the nation, they never showed up again. the fun to sail out together was gone ..they were left alone in the dark. left alone with empty thoughts on former friends who betrayed them the easy way 

the DLC forger as we have now is a game breaker on human resources  its a zerg provider for the other (big)  nation   

if there is one big  hard shouter, who says he is going to the big boys,  the heard will follow the so-called leader of stupid thoughts.

a game should actually prevent such things, but in this game, it is a deliberate feature invented for the single player who made a mistake of choice of a nation, but it ended up as a power shifter for entire nations.

if the captain who made a mistake of nation choice; THAT CAPTAIN MUST START ALL OVER AGAIN. (IT IS HIS MISTAKE AND NOT A BLAME FOR A ENTIRE NATION)

What shocks me the most is that it is an expected feature by development and probably don't see the power of that feature to break their own game. (or perhaps they do, i don't know)

 

The forger is tested and.... FAILED IN THIS SETTING. 

MY 2 CENTS ON THIS ONE.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Thonys

[staun]

55 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

All I said is that a DLC ships are cheaper to "craft", faster to "craft" and require no buildings to "craft"

Witch in your argument is egual to P2W. 

And I quote you: 

pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If we should go with that, well guess we only can have paint and flags in the game. That is if we take a hardcore approce to the P2W. But from what I so far have seen, the 2 ships havent tipped any balance, so skilled player cant still win, ore players get an sigfinicant advantage. Would actually with the new br think a fleet of crafteble ships would do fair against them in a pb. But not sure. The only one i can remember was when Havoc was Dutch and killed a gb fleet in a pb, As I remember havoc was the only one on Herc.

I mark a few words to help you, where I argue for the dlc ships not are so much P2W as ppl claim.

 

You even linked the definition of pay to win and still deny it is p2w. Tipp: The faster rate is the key. 

 It is actually not. The key word is Largely unballanced and skill. Would you say the ship makes the server largely unballanced? Made it impossible for skilled players to overcome?

 

More sources. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

Pay-to-win mechanics[edit]

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.

In this case items are ships. In order to get a ship that is comparable to a herc or requin you are required to do more than a player who has the dlc. I am done with arguing with you because I am sick of wasting energy on someone that just refuses to get it. 

Again you skip the important word. Significant advantage. It actually say thay it is ok for a dlc to save ppl time, as long as it not gives the player a significant advantage. So the question is what is a significant advantage? It could be a hardcore approce to the word, in witch any action with the ship is an advantage, witch in that case,  all things that not purly is cosmetic is P2W. Ore I could be a balanced approce, in witch case an long it give the non dlc players a fair and equal chance to overcome the advantage of the dlc, it would actually not be P2W., Guess it all depends on your belive and what once agenda is.

 

I can only accept your resufal to debate. It is a choise you have the right to make.

Edited December 22, 2018 by staun

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, staun said:

I can only accept your resufal to debate. It is a choise you have the right to make.

there is no point in debating someone that doesn't see the facts. I pointed them out, you refused to accept. Pointing facts out to you is like trying to explain that the world is round to a flat earther. 

[staun]

8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

there is no point in debating someone that doesn't see the facts. I pointed them out, you refused to accept. Pointing facts out to you is like trying to explain that the world is round to a flat earther. 

Yeah I still wounder why you keep claiming the world is flat. Whats next you want to tell me the moon is made of cheese

You pointed out the fact you belive in. I told where I think you are wrong. Insted of raising to the challange. You just say it is fact. Role over and falls back to repeat banalities.

Edited December 22, 2018 by staun

[Thonys]

5 minutes ago, staun said:

Yeah I still wounder why you keep claiming the world is flat. Whats next you want to tell me the moon is made of cheese?

? / (he never claimed)

and never tasted the moon though. perhaps it taste like cheese  

but there is no air right ...😜

Edited December 22, 2018 by Thonys

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

One more chance before this runs its course.

Present facts and not made up evidence to support a theory.  

Compare raw values and true crafting expenditure time.

As far as i've read there's not a single comparison regarding crafting times.

- how much times does it cost to craft a Surprise ?

- how much time does it cost to redeem a surprise in Admiralty ?

- is it more or less than DLC 24 hours ?

- how do DLC Hercules compare ( in % or integer values ) - all wods combos / all modules equipped

And more.

That's hard fact. Not adjusted evidence to support a theory.

So, before this runs its course start gathering data, not evidence.

[HachiRoku]

4 minutes ago, staun said:

Yeah I still wounder why you keep claiming the world is flat. Whats next you want to tell me the moon is made of cheese

You pointed out the fact you belive in. I told where I think you are wrong. Insted of raising to the challange. You just say it is fact. Role over and falls back to repeat banalities.

it is a fact that dlc ships are faster and cheaper to build. Deny that and you are delusional. 

[staun]

1 minute ago, Thonys said:

? / (he never claimed)

and never tasted the moon though. perhaps it taste like cheese  

I know it is a strech, but just so more fun to use the same debate style as him.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

One more chance before this runs its course.

Present facts and not made up evidence to support a theory.  

Compare raw values and true crafting expenditure time.

As far as i've read there's not a single comparison regarding crafting times.

- how much times does it cost to craft a Surprise ?

- how much time does it cost to redeem a surprise in Admiralty ?

- is it more or less than DLC 24 hours ?

- how do DLC Hercules compare ( in % or integer values ) - all wods combos / all modules equipped

And more.

That's hard fact. Not adjusted evidence to support a theory.

I welcome you to point out any evidence I adjusted. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

I welcome you to point out any evidence I adjusted. 

No, you misinterpret me.

I said, present facts  not that you had adjusted evidence. The evidence is just a observation not to get distracted in nitpicking while gathering data.

 

[staun]

9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

it is a fact that dlc ships are faster and cheaper to build. Deny that and you are delusional. 

I have not denied that any place. All I have said is that on the definitions I googled to find out what P2W are, it never have been the definition. 

But you are proberbly right. I am most likely delusional, I still belive debate can be made objectively and ppl go in to it with an opend mind. For me the one I had with slim a bit back in this thread, was a good one. We found a common ground to debate what P2W was.

You and I could have had a good one debating what an significicant advantage was. But I have realized it never will happends.

Edited December 22, 2018 by staun

[Thonys]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

One more chance before this runs its course.

Present facts and not made up evidence to support a theory.  

Compare raw values and true crafting expenditure time.

As far as i've read there's not a single comparison regarding crafting times.

- how much times does it cost to craft a Surprise ?

- how much time does it cost to redeem a surprise in Admiralty ?

- is it more or less than DLC 24 hours ?

- how do DLC Hercules compare ( in % or integer values ) - all wods combos / all modules equipped

And more.

That's hard fact. Not adjusted evidence to support a theory.

So, before this runs its course start gathering data, not evidence.

i leave that to the developers.

it takes time.

we must give them that time, 

 

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

No, you misinterpret me.

I said, present facts  not that you had adjusted evidence. The evidence is just a observation not to get distracted in nitpicking while gathering data.

 

Well I dont know what is more evidence than saying the DLC ships are cheaper in game than crafted ships. They are free so there is no debate there. Staun is denying the basic facts so I don't think I can convince him anymore. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, HachiRoku said:

DLC ships are cheaper in game than crafted ships

DLC ships cost is Game + DLC value. Crafted ships cost is Game. ( insert $$ values here )

Virtual investment for DLC ship is ? Virtual investment for normal ship is ? ( insert data here )