Patch 29. Sextant, shallow water changes, improvements in the User interface.

[Socialism]

Customers paid for DLC ships and the right to sail them on the OW.  It was not explicitly implied that they would be allowed into port battles, thus removing that option from the game does not invalidate the purchase of the DLCs.  The purpose of the DLC ships was to provide instant access to a perhaps slightly OP ship that doesn't need the best mods to compete with and it's players could sail and sink in without fear.  It has accomplished that purpose and up until the doubloons change, PVP was inherently better because of them.  

That said, only craftable ships should be allowed in port battles.  They should be decided by skill and tactics (including wood types/ship comp) and not by who or who has not purchased DLCs.  

[Angus MacDuff]

14 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

What if there's a storm at the time the position would be taken ( noon ) ?

Historically, if you cant see the sun, you don't get to fix.  Same rule should apply here.

[Capn Rocko]

I personally think that the devs are going the wrong direction with this patch but maybe thats just because I want to see 6/7th rates being useful again. Adding Surprise/Reno/Cerb to shallow waters gives some balance to the herc/requin (which is good) but it does nothing for the small ships in the game except make them more useless.

DLC in port battles is fine with me as long as better craftable alternatives are available. When you see full PB fleets of DLC ships, then something is out of balance. I think a lot will come down to BR values. If the 5th rates and DLC ships' BR are weighted heavily, then maybe we will see some interesting combinations that include niagara/rattlesnake/mercury.

[greybuscat]

35 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Yes about game design. We discuss it. We can argue all day long about how mechanics work and do not work. I can be wrong you can be wrong. How the DLC was implemented is FACTUALLY a design flaw. 

None craftable ships being able to play in a game that is intended to have an economy is badly designed. You have no argument other than convenience for the DLC structure. That is not an argument.

What is your argument that I know less about the DLC structure because I don't own them? 

When did I dictate who is allowed to have an opinion? 

I agree with you that DLC ships should be crafted and not redeemed, though I'm open to the idea someone else suggested that you can choose between a shabby note and a permit once per day (preferably a permit with a 24 hour expiration date). I agree that it's bad for the in-game economy, and I would go further and say that it hurts less quantifiable aspects of the game, like variety of ships encountered on the open sea and in battles.

It's amazing what happens when you stick to ideas and avoid getting personal, isn't it?

But to answer your bright red questions, my argument is that it's dumb to argue about what makes a person more qualified to an opinion, and that such arguments can easily cut both ways. I said I "could" make that argument because it's not argument I personally agree with, not because I'm being passive aggressive.

Everyone's opinion might not be equal in relevance or quality, but they're certainly equally valid, whether you have bought DLC, not bought DLC, or even if your personal collection of alts makes up half the customer base.

And I thought the quoted text pretty strongly implied that people who have bought the DLC should not complain about how the DLC was implemented. I thought this because it's literally what you wrote. If you weren't trying to say that, then I apologize and you can feel free to disregard my response, but it would be nice if you could clarify what you meant here: 

15 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Don't buy a product you think is not implemented correctly and complain about them.

Perhaps this is one of those automated translation issues I've been hearing so much about lately.  *shrugs*

EDIT: I used the wrong quote box by mistake. My apologies to @Capn Rocko

Edited December 11, 2018 by greybuscat

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

We can quibble over our historical anecdata, but what's really at stake here is whether it makes better game play or not. When the large majority of players agree that they'd like to be able to get a fix on their position at least once a day on a map, +/- 20 km, which, chronometer or not, is very much within the margin of error for most maritime navigation throughout this period, then why not give it to them?

It just alleviates a point of frustration that is needless to continue pushing on new and casual players.

The point I was trying to make that having it as a perk is a good way to have it then. When you are outfitting your ship you choose to spend your money on an expensive chronometer or gunnery upgrades, the choice is yours.

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, greybuscat said:

I agree with you that DLC ships should be crafted and not redeemed, though I'm open to the idea someone else suggested that you can choose between a shabby note and a permit once per day (preferably a permit with a 24 hour expiration date). I agree that it's bad for the in-game economy, and I would go further and say that it hurts less quantifiable aspects of the game, like variety of ships encountered on the open sea and in battles.

It's amazing what happens when you stick to ideas and avoid getting personal, isn't it?

But to answer your bright red questions, my argument is that it's dumb to argue about what makes a person more qualified to an opinion, and that such arguments can easily cut both ways. I said I "could" make that argument because it's not argument I personally agree with, not because I'm being passive aggressive.

Everyone's opinion might not be equal in relevance or quality, but they're certainly equally valid, whether you have bought DLC, not bought DLC, or even if your personal collection of alts makes up half the customer base.

And I thought the quoted text pretty strongly implied that people who have bought the DLC should not complain about how the DLC was implemented. I thought this because it's literally what you wrote. If you weren't trying to say that, then I apologize and you can feel free to disregard my response, but it would be nice if you could clarify what you meant here: 

Perhaps this is one of those automated translation issues I've been hearing so much about lately.  *shrugs*

The way I said it was the way I meant it. Players said it was p2w. I then asked those players in global why they bought the dlc if they knew it was p2w. They said to win lol. People should not complain about p2w and support it. That is not how capitalism works my friend. If people were intelligent we would not have p2w in the game industry. Players were aware what those ships were capable of when buying them since they got 1 free to test. They still bought them. They could have complained and and waited for a fix. But no. Why would you pay for something knowing what it does? You think the devs would not change the ships if people did not buy them?  Its just nonsensical to me. You as a customer give your opinion of a game developers product buy paying for it or not paying for it. My oppinion is not paying for it. 

So yes. In my opinion my argument is more qualified since I was not stupid enough to buy something that we ALL knew was not ok for the game. You won't like what I said there and I am ok with it. The devs won't like it and I am ok with that to. But we know its true. Honestly. You pay for something that you believe is p2w and then cry its p2w because someone else sinks your non p2w ships. Speaking of double standards. I can cry because I don't have the p2w ships. Get it   

[Archaos]

51 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

What if there's a storm at the time the position would be taken ( noon ) ?

There is also morning and evening star sights that can be taken, not just noon.

[vazco]

8 hours ago, admin said:

• Hercules and LRQ will be allowed into shallow port battles. 
• Please make necessary preparations if needed. 

Thank you for heads up. Due to preparations, I'll avoid RvR (and most likely NA) until they're removed from PB's. Requins + muskets in PB's will become meta. This particular meta is not fun (for me at least).

Edited December 11, 2018 by vazco

[vazco]

19 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

So yes. In my opinion my argument is more qualified since I was not stupid enough to buy something that we ALL knew was not ok for the game.

I bought it to support the game, hearing that goal of developers was to not make it pay to win. I'm still disappointed, as those two ships don't have decent alternatives in a few roles, eg:

• reinforcement zone raiding
• stern camping
• duels with focus on sailing below enemy's guns
• filling in shallow BR with low numbers (at least the last one will change)

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, vazco said:

I bought it to support the game

I bought the game to play the game. I bought the flag DLC because I wanted and irish flag. I generally don't like giving people my money to support them. 

[Galt]

2 hours ago, OjK said:

I'm pretty sure You're talking Hercs here.

How about the Le'Troll (accidentaly the more expensive DLC ship) kiting You around the circle?

I'd love to have more options in PB, and the light frigates are cool.
And even if Surprise can be some of reply to Hercules, what is the reply to Le'Troll?

As long there is no free equivalent to equal fight against Le'Troll - this is just a bad idea.
And what is right now the best option with similar sailing profile? Prince, with half of the armanent and half of the crew? Really?

No it's not. What I really meant is in the part You didn't quote. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Hercules has now some free alternative (as long they dont hello kitty up the BR values for Surp/Herc)
If You take out the variable of skill, Hercules IS better ship in every single statistic. The difference might not be big, but still, a paid ship is better then the free one.

But Le'Troll still doesn't have ANYTHING to reply with. So allowing DLC's ship again to PB's is back again P2W in simplest form.

 

By the way. I'd really hope to hear a reason, why Le'Troll DLC is more expensive than Hercules.
That's interesting, isn't it?

So, by your logic an Indianman should be able to take out a req easily; it has all the same advantages you laid out but I still sink them left and right. Skill is the most important thing in this game, to try and remove that is asinine. You can not take player skill out of the equation when assessing an enemy. I feel, aside from its easily availability, the herc isn't that great of a ship. The reason it's OP is because when you lose one, you can just get another one for free. That, imo, is what makes it overpowered. Otherwise, it's just a good 5th rate. Anyone who is familiar with both a herc and a surp can achieve near identical results in either. 

[Marquis de la Fayette]

Que d agressivité HachiRoku... Ce jeu est extraordinaire. Et je pense qu'un peu de tolérance, de patience et de bon sens participeront à son bon développement.

Cordialement,. La Fayette.

[Angus MacDuff]

5 minutes ago, Galt said:

So, by your logic an Indianman should be able to take out a req easily; it has all the same advantages you laid out but I still sink them left and right. Skill is the most important thing in this game, to try and remove that is asinine. You can not take player skill out of the equation when assessing an enemy. I feel, aside from its easily availability, the herc isn't that great of a ship. The reason it's OP is because when you lose one, you can just get another one for free. That, imo, is what makes it overpowered. Otherwise, it's just a good 5th rate. Anyone who is familiar with both a herc and a surp can achieve near identical results in either. 

Yeah, I love my Herc and the ability to replace it....Because I do lose out to the better Captain, in various ships, on occasion.  The funny thing is (and i'm sure this fuels the OP argument) that when I beat someone, they always blame it on the OP DLC ship I'm sailing.  Y'know, sometimes I get it right and the other skipper gets it wrong.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Angus MacDuff

[vazco]

28 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I bought the game to play the game. I bought the flag DLC because I wanted and irish flag. I generally don't like giving people my money to support them. 

Then don't complain that you are not being supported as you'd like to  As you said, in capitalism, money is vote.

[HachiRoku]

4 minutes ago, vazco said:

Then don't complain that you are not being supported as you'd like to  As you said, in capitalism, money is vote.

where did I complain? I was not the one that said the DLC ships are OP. 

[OjK]

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

admiralty dlc for example. Was asked for and release a month later. Also. Paying for a product is also proof the community is ok with it. Let me ask you and @OjK something... Do you own the requin dlc?

No. I do not. This is way across the line of P2W for me to morally accept it.
Neither Admiralty DLC, or alt characters.
 

46 minutes ago, Galt said:

So, by your logic an Indianman should be able to take out a req easily

No, because Indiaman does not have every aspect better. Requins have 50% more turning. So with my logic, Indiaman would never sink Requin with equally skilled captains.
When I mentioned Herc vs other ships I mentioned that Herc has every single aspect better (the only worse then Surp is 10 less crew).
 

Edited December 11, 2018 by OjK

[p i t]

@admin can I suggest a fun perk? 'Crows Nest' or Barrelman'.  Gives the player greater distance to spot ships in OW.

[Marquis de la Fayette]

Alors cela mon cher Fosse, c'est une bien bonne idée... A suivre.

Cordialement , La Fayette.

[z4ys]

@admin Regarding the upcoming chnages can we try real shallows in the bahamas? So pbs get actual set by the ships that will fight the pb.

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

Pandora ?

This one ?

Edited December 11, 2018 by Captan Thomas Fremantle

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

2 hours ago, Archaos said:

There is also morning and evening star sights that can be taken, not just noon.

I said in a Storm. Not at night.  

[z4ys]

10 hours ago, admin said:

• Sextant perk
  • 2 points (price might change) perk will allow to determine your position at sea

Price is pretty cheap therefore that people can use it to sail deep in the ocean determining their position, never getting lost, never fear of being attacked.

Edited December 11, 2018 by z4ys

[Preechur Blackheart]

6 hours ago, Jack Lowe said:

In response to Wraiths post. I dont disagree with your position that making the sextant cost two perk points can be problematic. I would however offer a different view point. 

The dev's from what I have seen didn't intend to add the sextant at all. It's only being put in due to our feedback on the removal of the trader tool. It's a good move I believe I'm not arguing that. Only that it wasn't intended to be part of this development cycle. Therefore the perk implementation was probably the most economic and at the same time sensible way to get it into the game. A full and correct implementation would require further design and coding time taking resources away from the current work. 

I believe they will revisit the sextant in a later cycle. Although it may not become in there view a priority until after release. It will be on us through testing how it works with other game features and mechanics to provide constructive feedback and determine whether it should be pushed up the priority list, just as our feedback got it pushed onto it now.

 

4 hours ago, Hemp Amore said:

Why does it have to be a perk?  Why is it not "just is" for everyone?  Still worse than ded-reckoning/triangulation cause it's literally GPS on the map, but better than zero navigation.  Is there any user input in to the sextant at all?  Angles, degrees, anything I can touch or do at all?  Or do I just click on the button and open the map to find a cross or a mark?

I just want to say THANK YOU to the Devs for responding to the many many calls for a navigation aid that makes sense. We can debate how to better implement a historical navigation method, but at least there is to be a way (paid for by a perk) to have a navigation aid if you want a navigation aid. It is heartening to me that the devs are showing they listen and respond.

I would prefer it to be more easily accessible (indeed historically every ship had some way of getting a position fix if they could see the sun or stars).  I like the idea of every player being able to get a not-so-accurate position fix for free, and make the very accurate position fix a perk. 

If I had my DRUTHERS, I would still say keep the triangulation method through the trader tool alive. Or, if the trader tool goes, give relative distances on the port finder. Same result. Better gameplay, if less historical a method.

Buy anyway, thank you Devs!

[Captiva]

6 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

What "activity" do you speak of?  Opening the map and seeing a circle?  

Well, yes. I know it's hardly anything, but it let's a player do something extra while in OW - as trivial as that may seem. It was used aboard ships during the time period and therefore I see no valid reason for not having it.

I believe you were in TDA at one time and Prater's map gave the ability to take a noon time position. I thought that was cool back then and was always curious as to why this game never added that feature.

I've played for years without a sextant and without the compass before it's introduction, so it's not a game breaker if it's removed. I enjoy the age of sail, and appreciate any additions from the developers that reflect it. It's as simple as that for me.

Thanks

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Captiva

[EdWatchmaker]

Hello Admin, Devs and Captains,

Now that we will have the sextant, though I don't know what type of headache it would cause to code, I would like to see leadsman so that the gunboat, cutter, lynx and possibly the privateer could enter even shallower waters than they can now. For traders it could enhance the ability to escape. For PBs it could mean new tactics such as getting in behind the enemy. For lone hunters it might be useful also.

Just a thought.

Fair sailing all and Happy Holidays from Capt. Ed and his awesome Seadog 3rd Class Wade.