Better Ships for All!

[admin]

7 hours ago, Havelock said:

 that can sail the shallows?

 

And?
They cannot enter shallow port battles and have some but not overwhelming influence on RVR, but only in shallow waters.
They also are worse than at least half ships in the game and are useless in deep water battles.
They drop in chests its not happening every second but it happens.

These ships are strong; we wanted to give something good and interesting to play for players who support us. But there at least 30 ships that can be crafted that are WAY better. We do not consider shallows a separate game this we do not consider "but shallows" arguments critical. They are could be argued and we understand other viewpoints exist on this shallows issue. Stats of LRQ and Here allow them to be strong and enter shallows. We try to use historical stats. Herc will turn into snow if it loses historical stats.

People who complain about DLC ships always complain about DLCs in every game. They don't want subscription, and yet they dont want DLC and demand things without offering means to achieve them. They now complain that we have flags. Their shouting hides possibly real complaints (about turn rates or maybe HP)

+ to @staun s point 

• LRQ + Hercules generated 31000 battles from approximately 120,000 over last 30 days. Yet they are not in top 15 by survivability. 
• 7 ships including these two generated 70000 battles. The rest of the ships are not used.

Just a quick comparison
1500 people had at least 1 battle in the last 30 days in a DLC ship. This means these 1500 people had 20 battles each. And died 2200 times
Ocean has 17 battles per owner (but higher survivability)
Bellona has 13 battles per owner (but higher survivability)
Bellona and Ocean owners died only 325 times out of 19000 battles.

This means one thing.
One click ships bring pvp to the pvp server, and kills to others. Many players returned to play because of them (they do not want to craft) and shallow patrols are always full from morning till evening. You either have those 31000 battles and 2200 pvp kills or you do not have them. 

We are not planning to change anything with the current promise to have crafted ships that are better in the same category. There will be a free DLC given to all ea owners (pandora) and it will increase pvp even further - it will be comparable to hercules somewhat. It will become paid after release. And will also cause complaints. 

[jodgi]

46 minutes ago, admin said:

We only will consider duels to the death (which means full account deletion for the loser) otherwise the parties can agree to a certain result if there is no cost for the loss.

Yikes!

[Crimson Sunrise]

7 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Judging by the absurd amount of hercules I have seen lately I feel that something must be wrong with the ship.

The 5.18 turn rate, the small size, the incredibily high base speed compared with other frigates, stern and bow chasers... tell me that this ship might be a bit op.

 

prince, heavy rat, standard rat, snow all have about the same thing wrong with it high speed high turn rate. bow and stern chasers. u can easily use one of these ships to counter the herc

[Njord]

1 hour ago, admin said:

The chances can be mined from the API i guess. But crafting in captured ports definitely gives better chance for new permanent slots. It is several times higher. like 3.5x.

 

This is very true. I must have redeemed more than 100 DLC ships and the best I have ever gotten was 2 purple. Craftable ships have higher chances for bonuses in capturable ports and are also theoretically unlimited available, as long as you can get resources. So not only are the chances higher with every ship built but you can also build more and have thus many more attempts per day ( 1 vs unlimited but with resource cost ) combined with higher chances for bonuses. Funny people ask for crafted ships to have more bonuses, when this is already the case on average.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sovereign

[admin]

5 minutes ago, rediii said:

 

The ship also outclasses any other 6th rate ship in damage 

So if we change LRQ to a 5th rate and keep the stats suddenly it will become ok? Classes are irrelevant after localization as we will change the classes based on the modified late british system: Moving ships around to their proper place in terms of class as current class system interferes with missions. 

[Njord]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

This means one thing.
One click ships bring pvp to the pvp server, and kills to others. Many players returned to play because of them (they do not want to craft) and shallow patrols are always full from morning till evening. You either have those 31000 battles and 2200 pvp kills or you do not have them. 

I agree completely. My clan and I are currently only playing thanks to DLC ships and we are enjoying the option to redeem one per day for PvP. We also provide content for others in return. I think some people are overreacting. Many PvP players use the DLC ships because they are good ships and easily available and this leads to people assuming the ship is much stronger than it actually is, because many PvP players use it and thereby get kills with it. 

I really wouldn't want the DLC ships to be nerfed much further. Sure they are good but isn't this the point? Who would buy basic Brig DLC? How much content and PvP would you get out of a basic Brig DLC? The only thing I could see is maybe remove Hercules form shallows but the DLC ships should always remain very capable and desirable vessels to command.

No matter what, DLC ships probably create most content in terms of PvP and also help fund development for NA, as long as they are worth sailing.

It is like you said, people are even against the flag DLC and think development can be paid for with love and nice weather.

What I could see for Herc is a rebalance where you make her faster, reduce turnrate a bit, remove 18pd guns and swap them for 12pd and keep her in shallows.

No matter what you do please do not nerf the DLC ships into oblivion, it would be a mistake. Rebalance, if the data shows it is justified.

[jodgi]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

People who complain about DLC ships always complain about DLCs in every game. They don't want subscription, and yet they dont want DLC and demand things without offering means to achieve them.

The whining about terrible DLC ships ruining NA started two years ago even before herc and req were a twinkle in your eye. There are concerns I have sympathy towards, but these "on principle" complainers I skim past and read the posters without tunnelvision.

22 minutes ago, admin said:

One click ships bring pvp to the pvp server, and kills to others. Many players returned to play because of them (they do not want to craft) and shallow patrols are always full from morning till evening. You either have those 31000 battles and 2200 pvp kills or you do not have them.

This is why I was pro-premium two years ago and remain pro-DLC ship today. 

25 minutes ago, admin said:

Many players returned to play because of them (they do not want to craft)

Also a reason I support DLC ships. Some posters think eco and crafting is more important and would have those people excluded rather than providing eco bypass.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, admin said:

 

+ to @staun s point 

• LRQ + Hercules generated 31000 battles from approximately 120,000 over last 30 days. Yet they are not in top 15 by survivability. 
• 7 ships including these two generated 70000 battles. The rest of the ships are not used.

Just a quick comparison
1500 people had at least 1 battle in the last 30 days in a DLC ship. This means these 1500 people had 20 battles each. And died 2200 times
Ocean has 17 battles per owner (but higher survivability)
Bellona has 13 battles per owner (but higher survivability)
Bellona and Ocean owners died only 325 times out of 19000 battles.

You don't seem to be accounting for the mindset in a DLC ship. Many players don't try to stay alive and survive in a DLC ship. They also don't typically place expensive mods on them. Some do, but the vast majority of the Hercules and Requins I've sunk have only had basic mods on them. This lack of concern for staying alive throws off your stats. Players do everything they can to survive in a Bellona or L'Ocean. 

[staun]

1 minute ago, EliteDelta said:

You don't seem to be accounting for the mindset in a DLC ship. Many players don't try to stay alive and survive in a DLC ship. They also don't typically place expensive mods on them. Some do, but the vast majority of the Hercules and Requins I've sunk have only had basic mods on them. This lack of concern for staying alive throws off your stats. Players do everything they can to survive in a Bellona or L'Ocean. 

You are right on that point.

 If ppl wasent on  Dlc ship, some will still have been on another ship and therefor there will have been other battles. But still not sure how much care ore upgrade ppl will spend on a shallow ship, unless it is for pb’s.

But there is no doubt in my mind that they have kept player in the game and made more content.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

12 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Many players don't try to stay alive and survive in a DLC ship.

You are right but... ( and taking on years of pvpers concerns - which include dreaded speed caps and other mechanics )

  Admin said:

...We prefer to focus on motivating the fighting, not running... ... The test shown that people prefer less risk...

 

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

Too expensive to sail a Ocean or Bellona and get sunked. We prefer run and stay in port and do not take out big ships.

To focus the PvP we need more cheap ships and more easier methods to make reals .

By fighting in DLC ships makes us easier to PvP and not run from the battle.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Captan Thomas Fremantle

[Beeekonda]

9 hours ago, Havelock said:

Can you name a 40 gun ship fulfilling these requirements that can sail the shallows?

Can you name a 6th rate outclassing the Requin in the same way? (HP, mast HP, crew, thickness, mast thickness, sails, broadside weight)

That wasn't a problem way back before she became DLC ship. People used to sail on those on shallow pbs on poods and everyone was OK with that. 6th rates got their buffs due to overwhelming amount of those in shallow waters. 

Requin is still going too fast in all direction. I was running from 2  french requins on my Fir/Fir/VeryFast Surprise with bovenwinds/navy hull in 180 degree and almost not making distance between us

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Those "death stars" are national Home Fleets / Med Fleets intended for Conquest.

Projection of sea power is best done with 74 guns flagships with frigates, corvettes and unrated consorts. Those are appropriately expensive to engage the enemy in all forms and wherever they may be found.

Reckon we may well be on the road of "credible historical" orders of battle instead of the MASH! of ships-of-the-line camping everywhere waiting for enemies to devour.

[Tom Farseer]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

Reinforcements are based on shipclass

While I agree on the problematic with knowledge books, I am not sure that this specific statement is true anymore. When I tagged a spaniard in his R-Zone last week, I was sailing an Indefatigable and the game spawned two (very beefed up) Indefatigables. I take two things from that.

1. Reinforcements are no longer completely laughable. They cannot kill a competent player on their own but they should be strong enough to force most attacker to leave the battle as fast they can by running upwind. That is a good thing. (Going with the wind the AI kept up at 13 knots while being chained to 87%). Good for me that the AI still can't go close to the wind. 😅
2. It would seem from this limited experience that reinforcements are no longer tied to ship rate but rather spawn the same ship.

It would be nice to get some info on those changes from someone who has definite knowledge on the matter (pokes @admin ).

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

41 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Those "death stars" are national Home Fleets / Med Fleets intended for Conquest.

Projection of sea power is best done with 74 guns flagships with frigates, corvettes and unrated consorts. Those are appropriately expensive to engage the enemy in all forms and wherever they may be found.

Reckon we may well be on the road of "credible historical" orders of battle instead of the MASH! of ships-of-the-line camping everywhere waiting for enemies to devour.

Projection of sea power was not the only consideration when assigning ships for deployment, 1st and 2nd rates were rarely seen outside of the Channel and Mediterranean  fleets due to the huge manpower and economical costs of running them. For those reasons alone, when the Royal Navy conducted the round the world cruise in the 1930's they assigned HMS Repulse and HMS Hood, as battlecruisers, they demonstrated the power of 15" guns with the economy of a cruiser in terms of fuel and range. 

A similar cruise in 1800's would most likely have been assigned to a pair of 3rd rates, more likely just one with a pair of Frigates, the cost would have been roughly equal to sending HMS Victory alone even in times of peace. Then, as now, control of the sea lanes was a very expensive business, the assignment of ships reflected that cost and the value of the assignment to National interests. 

In game the clans have no formal budget provided by the nation, if they can afford to replace 1st rates then they will send them as the most powerful units available to them, if they cannot then either the battle will be somewhat one sided or the less powerful side will rely more on skill, tactics and or numbers. Either way it will be at the level that the clans involved can afford, and, sometimes, even the biggest ships, the best navy's are beaten by the underdog!

I think on balance, the more realistic deployment of ships as you have outlined would actually benefit the game more in the long term. 

[admin]

8 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

I know I can beat a herc in a different 5th rate, but that's not really the point. Hercules is one of the most deadly 5th rates, yet it's one if the smallest.. 

The author of the post claimed that there are no ships that are better than DLC ships. And claimed he can kill any 5th rate in a herc. So thats really THE point of the conversation. There are better ships than DLC ships and in addition to that DLC ships bring lots of PVP

6 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

You don't seem to be accounting for the mindset in a DLC ship. Many players don't try to stay alive and survive in a DLC ship. They also don't typically place expensive mods on them. Some do, but the vast majority of the Hercules and Requins I've sunk have only had basic mods on them. This lack of concern for staying alive throws off your stats. Players do everything they can to survive in a Bellona or L'Ocean. 

It's not throwing off ANY stats 
Hercules and Le requin owners gave players 2200 kills (they sank 2200 times) they sank more than any other ship. In fact 3 ships contribute 50% of deaths (sinking on the war server). Basic cutter, brig (tutorial one) le requin and hercules is 55% of deaths on War server during last 30 days. 

I don't get you mindset point. It lacks any logic. I find your logic strange for a player with 10x pvp KD   (corrected from 5x KD). You should embrace the lack of fear of of sinking.

Going to die without fear using basic mods IS PVP mindset . Its the best mindset. You say they are throwaway ships? What about free 5th rates from NPCs? it takes like 4 mins to find one and capture. You can use 1 only herc per day but you can use 20+ captured 5th rates or more depending on your free time. Why dont people have the same mindset on captured 5th rates? 

You want people to experience MORE PAIN? You want people to worry more? I think some pvp players are just losing track of what they want (we do that too btw).

They ask for more incentives for pvp and then they complain about lack of fear mindset
Then they talk about overpowered mods - and then immediately complain about the fact that DLC ships only use basic mods

 

[Njord]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

die without fear using basic mods IS PVP mindset

Pretty much another pro of DLC ships, people don't mind losing their ship in a good fight, because they can get a new one and thus they fight to the death much more, instead of only ganking and running.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, Sovereign said:

Pretty much another pro of DLC ships, people don't mind losing their ship in a good fight, because they can get a new one and thus they fight to the death much more, instead of only ganking and running.

Same with captured ships from the AI. Or ships captured from enemy players.

( many times capturing the ship is way more valuable. I got the pvp and still got a ship to fight more the next day )

[Guest]

3 hours ago, admin said:

People who complain about DLC ships always complain about DLCs in every game. They don't want subscription, and yet they dont want DLC and demand things without offering means to achieve them. They now complain that we have flags. Their shouting hides possibly real complaints (about turn rates or maybe HP)

Woahhh.

1. I hate the op ass way you implement it (redeem once each day)

2. I love dlc if they are implementere correctly.

3.  I’ve subscribed to wow for 12 years and running and its the best way to go around p2w.

4.The flags should never been a dlc, you managed to remove an own branch of content by just that.

5. Its so certainly not about just raw stats on ship.

MOD - TOXIC COMMENT EDITED OUT. RULE 1, RULE 15

[admin]

20 minutes ago, Wyy said:

Woahhh.

1. I hate the op ass way you implement it (redeem once each day)

2. I love dlc if they are implementere correctly.

3.  I’ve subscribed to wow for 12 years and running and its the best way to go around p2w.

4.The flags should never been a dlc, you managed to remove an own branch of content by just that.

 

1 you can capture up to 60 free 5th rates per day if you find a right spot
4 flags are a DLC and is very popular. By saying manage you present this fact as if they were done for free and then removed. This was never the case.  When they were announced for real (not in like discussions) they were announced as DLC with a chance to get them in game in special events and operations.

In terms of the rest of your comments its all "Fight Club Movie" again

• Player. I love DLC in wow. do it like wow!
• Designer. You mean we can add xp and crafting boosters, 30 EUR one time race transfers or server transfers?
• Player. No - you are not wow.

 

[jodgi]

15 minutes ago, admin said:

Why dont people have the same mindset on captured 5th rates?

I only know why I don't use capped bots.

5 min to get a ship you want may be right, I rolleye at the idea of spending time with bots to get a fighting ship, but I know I weird that way and should know better.

I rather craft ships so I have control over the speed/tankiness. Bot ships are often either too slow or too weak. There's nothing wrong with that as they should not compete with crafting, even I agree with that. End result is less time spent crafting and getting a capable ship vs. spending time hoping to get a decent ship in the bot lottery. I may be mistaken by that is how I perceive it.

Now a herc can be clicked out with full control over speed/tankiness with a more than decent vanilla speed profile. You could argue it doesn't need a bunch of expensive mods to do both chasing, running or fighting if it comes to that. DLC clicking is the most time effective way to get what you're looking for. That's why I'll welcome all DLC ships that may come and sulk if they don't.

I'm actually keeping myself to crafted ships for the time being as some sort of "normal player" role-play testing. I don't want to dive into a DLC-only world and forget how the other half lives just yet. It has little importance outside my head and I defo will start using herc a lot at some point.

[Njord]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

chance to get them also in game.

I don't think it should be possible to get the same flags from DLC in the game permanently to be honest. Make them temporary, if anything... something like token to "test" the flags for one week but you still have to buy the DLC, if you want to unlock them permanently. Why should some people pay for them and others get it for free? It's not any combat advantage - just visuals.

Unless you mean different flags that are not in the DLC, in this case I misunderstood.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, admin said:

1 you can capture up to 60 free 5th rates per day if you find a right spot
4 flags are a DLC and is very popular. By saying manage you present this fact as if they were done for free and then removed. Flags were done in summer tested in autumn and when they were announced for real (not in like discussions) they were announced as DLC with a chance to get them in game in special events and operations.

1. i do this even though i have the herc dlc because i cant stand the ships since its to good.

Also pick one, Fir | Crew Space Shabby 1-5 Frigate vs Guaranteed 3/5 any woodtype Herc

2. Again even though they are very popular you still removed an whole branch of content.

3. All of this would be avoided if there was a logical mechanic that removes the possibility of side hugging (muskets/ grenades etc), and that you actually loose more then 30 crew when you do a full broadside to the open deck on the requin.

 

The requin is far more squishier than it were, but  it can ram any 6th rate and board it in a matter of seconds and it doesn't help running downwind because hello Elite Pirate Rig. 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[Palatinose]

Can we invent a new term? SOFT STATS

Like soft skills these stats are hard to measure, but of critical importance for communication (here: battles)

@admin always wants to see facts. I tell you that there are so many things in this game that can't be discribed by pure facts. This is a good thing, though it also leads to issues as interpretation on non-factual matters is always subjective.

Examples for soft stats:

- mast hit boxes Hercules: very small compared to other fifth rates

- differences in hull shape between Santissima and L'Ocean - stat thickness may be nearly even, the actual penetration of armour is NOT

 

Perhaps these stats fall under that, what devs want the players to explore ingame. As a warning I would say: the less fact based certain things are, the more speculation, suspicion and annoyance will occur. I can deal and live fine with these politics. But there is loads of people who could be pleased with some more explanations and reason. Of course we can continue to wipe them of these forums and the game with a smiple "git gud". The question remains: is this the way? 

[OjK]

And now I will blow away all discussion about DLC's not beeing Pay to Win.

@admin Can we kindly ask for a stat breakdown of how much percantage of TOP10 Light Ships Event was claimed by sailing and boarding with Le Requin?

Is it 100% or 95%?

And that's about 30.000 Doubloons available every week exclusively for owner's of Le Trollship DLC