Economy update 2. Improved trading

[Sir Texas Sir]

57 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Unfortunately rate is not 1/25, that was how our gold coverted to reals, underpaying it !

A shop frigate use to be 112k gold. So it would convert to 4500 reals.

But npc sells frigate for 13k reals ! So real rate regarding ship price is 1/9 , or 3 times more expansive to what it should be.

Shop hull repairs were 900 gold, now around 70 gold, again much more than 1/25 conversion rate. Again around 1/12 rate. 2 times expansive.

On the otherhand, 4th rate and above ships should be much more expansive compared to old times, including dubloon rate and labour hours with doubloons.

So my friend with 1/1 coversion of pvp marks to dubloons, 1/25 gold exchange rate to reals. We got denominated hardcore by the devs  our real wealth shrinked around my best guess of %60 percent.

Yah I know it wasn't exactly, but I had a bunch of ships that was on sale and no dock space so had to repost them and that was the quickest way to test the market that first day. I mean this was the very first day of the patch.  I figure by end of week some one would have a better crafting conversion made up to get a more real price on things.  The point mainly was that the guy bought them and than jacked the prices way up on Heavy Rattler cause he didn't have a clue what the real market value was for them.

Also remember the H Rattler took a permit before, now it doesn't.  WOuld been nice if they told us what to do with all them useless permits?  I ended up just turning them into the store for doubloons.

[John Jacob Astor]

5 hours ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Yeah it is bloody rare  but may happen.

Thing is a good salesman, that offers a good quality for a competitive price will sell his crations like hot cakes.

Which is what I was doing last spring before the DLC releases pretty much broke the market sector I selling into.

In order for this to happen you need quite a few more folks interested in selling resources and crafted ships. Then the price comes down.  But for this to happen the baseline resource and crafting math has to actually work.

It currently does not.  Resource extraction and ship crafting is currently restricted to free labor.  Or it has to be subsidized with doubloons from combat.  This is not a recipe for a self-sustaining economy.

5 hours ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Majority of salesmen tries to sell ships like they are made of el dorado gold... ridiculous.

I am currently able to get Doubloons in the free ports for about 110 Reals each.  This appears to result in an L3 labor valuation for a fir/fir T-brig (resources + shipyard) of roughly 80,000 Reals.  Which pretty much swamps the straight cost in Reals used for the resources.  And makes an  Admiralty sale pretty much meaningless.

I am really quite curious to know what you consider "el dorado" prices.  What would you expect to pay for a fir/fir T-brig?

[Barbancourt]

18 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

I am currently able to get Doubloons in the free ports for about 110 Reals each.  This appears to result in an L3 labor valuation for a fir/fir T-brig (resources + shipyard) of roughly 80,000 Reals.  Which pretty much swamps the straight cost in Reals used for the resources.  And makes an  Admiralty sale pretty much meaningless.

I am really quite curious to know what you consider "el dorado" prices.  What would you expect to pay for a fir/fir T-brig?

What does "L3 labor valuation" mean?

[John Jacob Astor]

1 hour ago, Barbancourt said:

What does "L3 labor valuation" mean?

Level 3 production buildings and a level 3 shipyard.  Labor hour bonus.  Using that yields a slightly more optimistic estimate.

Edited November 29, 2018 by John Jacob Astor

[vazco]

On 11/28/2018 at 5:00 PM, admin said:

You cannot get lost in NA if you plan your routes.

That's not exactly true. There will be some issues which will need some adressing:

• sailing to a hidden island will be an extreme activity
• when you log off, your route is deleted. Same happens sometimes in-game while launching map. Once it happens while you're eg chasing a trader you found on open water, you're screwed. This would need fixing
• external tools can measure your average position and give advantage to some players, leaving others in disadvantage
• tacking can get you lost. Sometimes you plot a route eg from Gustavia to Aves, you get a phonecall and go back to the game, not knowing whether you sailed next to an island, or whether you're not there yet. Not knowing your exact route and sometimes having to tack, you can get lost. It's not impossible

 

I navigate IRL and I think one critical element is missing - captains in that time were able to calculate their latitude easily with sun and stars, while had issues calculating longitude. It could be represented by some inaccurate coordinates that you can get at sunset, noon and dawn, with better prediction of latitude and less accurate prediction of longitude, which could include some random error. This way if you're lost - which sometimes happens - you're not that helpless. In the same time you wouldn't be able to use exact coordinates eg. to guide a revenge fleet.

 

Btw, IRL you can also navigate by smell, birds, currents, depth, sometimes winds, easier triangulation, lighthouses etc. In game it's not there and of course would be hard to model.

Edited November 29, 2018 by vazco

[Wargamer]

3 hours ago, van der Decken said:

I have always likened the Trader Tool to historical "word of mouth". It let's us know what stuff is wanted where, but we could get there too late and see that the port is overloaded. It's no different than historical traders knowing Canada had fur and that Europe wanted them, or that Jakarta had spices that Europe wanted.

Perhaps, rather than killing the tool, you could update it only once a day. Or at least maybe there should be some way to notify players which ports supply/demand what.

I thought it was only updated once a day already - at daily maintenance?

[Macjimm]

14 hours ago, Eyesore said:

I had weekends like that :-) including the red lamp and an alarm to get me back to the screen.

Friends thought/think i was/am weird though :-p

I don't think you are weird Eyesore.  Then again I suppose we are all weird, staring at a screen watching little toy boats zoom around at jet speed.  Some people spend thousands of hours doing so.  And then another five thousand in these forums complaining.  Who's really to judge what's weird.  😜

 

13 hours ago, Suppenkelle said:

However, the trader tool is needed to navigate out of sight of land, to alter courses without the additional orientation that landmarks can provide and to find your destination at the other end of the map without sightings of land beforehand. Some people actually like this kind of getting around the map. Yours truly, for example. I'd actually be a bit disappointed if this feature would go with the trader tool without any additional in-game tool for navigation.  It would kill a bit of the thrill if after three or more alterations in course without any sight of land, after two storms and rainy gales, and after two or three real live hours of sailing,  you hit your port of destination directly on the head.

I really enjoy using the sextant too.  I will be sad to see it gone.  I would love to have a sextant, and it should only work in clear weather.  Never in storms, or when the sun or north star is obscured.  But because there is no drift, from wind or currents, it is simple to determine one's position.    I can understand removing the sextant because there is no drift and allegedly it is used to gank. 

9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 F11 is rarely used in gank fleets any way.....casue all you have ot say is, "I"m getting ganked in fron to such and such port." and more folks will know where your at.  

Personally I think it has received a exaggerated bad reputation.  I think the sextant ganking occurrence is rare enough to allow it's use in clear weather.   But alas it seems that we will have to navigate without one.

7 hours ago, OjK said:

I think this game was about beeing realistic? None ship ever sailed the seas in a straight line... 

I don't sail in a straight line.  Here is how to do it.

Make a course plan before sailing.  I sail away from the shore because I; am a trader, and want to avoid contact with hunters.  I am safer on the open ocean.   Each leg of my journey requires a distance, direction and a time.  I set a timer and change course at each waypoint.  Timing is critical, and it must be adjusted sometimes due to your load, or bad wind.    Sighting of landmarks, like uninhabited islands, provide an opportunity for me to check my progress and reconfirm the timings and adjust my location.  I need to keep track of my speed and know how long it takes for my ship to cover the distances. With effort you can get pretty good at knowing the speed/distance/time ratio for your ship and how long it takes to cover a given distance. All of these factors make sailing more interesting for me.  Less boring.  My biggest complaint is that I can not trust any of the crew to act as lookout and call out enemy ships sightings.  So I am very busy snatching chances to; estimate bearing to landmarks, note course corrections, recalculate distances and times - and continually scanning 360 degrees.  I would also love to have a compass that I could take a bearing with.  But meh... we work with what we have.  On a hour long voyage, with a sextant, I can arrive at exactly at port at the end of multi leg journey, on the open water, within a few seconds of my ETA.  Without using the sextant I will still be very close, and with less than a minute error.  We don't need to make this game more boring by making it more arcade-like.  Naval Action navigation is NOT hardcore ... it is simple.

Additionally:
Na-Map has simplified the course plan and it is now very easy to adjust on the fly.  Thanks Felix. https://na-map-test.netlify.com/

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Macjimm
Grammar

[van der Clam]

^ Very nice map, but some of us still use old computers or laptops and that map is very laggy. Not having things in game will make things worse for those of us stuck with older PCs.

[Sir Texas Sir]

23 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

^ Very nice map, but some of us still use old computers or laptops and that map is very laggy. Not having things in game will make things worse for those of us stuck with older PCs.

And not every one has multi monitors or computers.  

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

12 hours ago, Barbancourt said:

Why add this stuff?

Your answer may be found in some of the entries of

namely the delivery of essential goods to ports to sustain production infrastructure, or at least that's how i read it.

[Sento de Benimaclet]

14 hours ago, admin said:

What is the current rate?  How is it astronomical?

For astronomical prices, I understand that they are very high, for example, when the map is reset and the ships are removed, in the best of cases we will start the ones with DLC with Hercules and Le Requin. The others with cutters. To build the shipyard and the forger, at least we will need thousands of doubloons. Imagine! Once we have achieved this we can only build until indefatigable, since the next ship, the Constitution requires 3600 doubloons. This means that you have to do 8 HUNT class 6 missions sinking 104 ships. For a Consti!! But clear between outpost and outpost 10 doubloons per trip. And more things. Think about it It is one thing to want to make the game realistic and another very different is this obsession with hardcore, which instead of attracting players makes them leave the game.

[admin]

8 minutes ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

For astronomical prices, I understand that they are very high, for example, when the map is reset and the ships are removed, in the best of cases we will start the ones with DLC with Hercules and Le Requin. The others with cutters. To build the shipyard and the forger, at least we will need thousands of doubloons. Imagine! Once we have achieved this we can only build until indefatigable, since the next ship, the Constitution requires 3600 doubloons. This means that you have to do 8 HUNT class 6 missions sinking 104 ships. For a Consti!! But clear between outpost and outpost 10 doubloons per trip. And more things. Think about it It is one thing to want to make the game realistic and another very different is this obsession with hardcore, which instead of attracting players makes them leave the game.

But the patrol and challenges give plenty of doubloons + they drop in loot and especially drop well in PvP (with bonus loot in patrols and port battles)
We monitor the supply and do not see the problems with doubloons yet. The supply grows maybe even too fast. 

[der Wallone]

I use map coordinates  quite often and like them.

On the other hand I remember a cruise from Belize to KPR in my early days in NA. I didn't know anything about NA-map,  the use o trader tool Triangulation nor the use of the protractor. As a bloody beginner I started Island hopping and was surprised by a thunderstorm on my way with 5 shiplength sight. So I missed 2 Islands and experienced being "lost at sea at ist best. Chat reported ganking at my destination so I stayed on the deckplanks of my ship and stared into the dark for half an hour. Finally, the sky cleared and I recognized the big mountain west of KPR harbor entrance. 10 minutes later I was safe.

Was one of the best NA experience so far.

On the other hand it  might be difficult to get a port battle fleet to a port in the shallows unharmed without a porper navigation. Island hopping in enemy territory is no option. But what about a navigator perk for about 6 points?

[Njord]

1 hour ago, admin said:

The supply grows maybe even too fast. 

I would argue some actions reward too many doubloons and some too little. Also please look at the doublon prices, they are in dire need of balance. For example the whole "module" section on admiralty has too high doubloon prices in my opinion. It is not a priority at the moment but I think it could use some adjustment...

[John Jacob Astor]

2 hours ago, admin said:

But the patrol and challenges give plenty of doubloons + they drop in loot and especially drop well in PvP (with bonus loot in patrols and port battles)
We monitor the supply and do not see the problems with doubloons yet. The supply grows maybe even too fast. 

Whether the doubloon price is astronomical depends on what they are being used for.  If for notes, books, and for the component in the line ships, the prices are probably too low.

If to buy extra labor, then yes.  The prices are astronomical.   Getting labor hours out of the same bucket as notes and books simply does not work.

If you are going to insist on using Doubloons for this the labor hour yield from a contract would need to be increased by at least a factor of 10 for this to come close to making any economic sense.  Probably a good deal more.

Edited November 29, 2018 by John Jacob Astor
clarification

[jodgi]

With all the pain that flows here due to the removal of trader tool; I thought I'd share an image that was part of the RAKER logbook, if you will, where we mapped resources. This was before player production and we used alts unabashed to fast-track eco. Bear in mind RAKERS viewed eco and crafting as necessary evils. Yup, Kaos and myself visited THE ENTIRE map to make things easier in the long run.

[frankling]

I must admit, for lesser ranks who want to build up a trade or production, have a hard time with the little labour hours and expensive production of  mat's.

But maybe you have to start small to become big.

 

[Vernon Merrill]

9 minutes ago, jodgi said:

With all the pain that flows here due to the removal of trader tool; I thought I'd share an image that was part of the RAKER logbook, if you will, where we mapped resources. This was before player production and we used alts unabashed to fast-track eco. Bear in mind RAKERS viewed eco and crafting as necessary evils. Yup, Kaos and myself visited THE ENTIRE map to make things easier in the long run.

Yours is prettier than mine.....  But yep.

[jodgi]

Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

Yours is prettier than mine.....  But yep.

Hehe, community maps, gyazo, Gsuite drawings and Google photos album made it a snap and a breeze.

Google photos enables you to use it "dynamically".

 

[frankling]

Nice show off, very jealous.

 

 

[Dragonfire]

You can also use an old fashioned thing called pen and paper and map the port resources like we use to do.

[jodgi]

6 minutes ago, frankling said:

Nice show off, very jealous.

 

 

lol! The last image is from a how-to post I made in Siegfried's map topic. It's not hard.

Anyway, it's pointless now as I bet Felix' map will take care of most things automatically.

I did this "show-off"  to counterweigh the "Oh, no! we have to do all this work now to be successful traders!" 

[frankling]

No smite intended, its a good idea and smacks the other one by a mile.🎓

[Barbancourt]

12 hours ago, admin said:

We monitor the supply and do not see the problems with doubloons yet. The supply grows maybe even too fast. 

I suspect they all go to "The 1%"   

[Felix Victor]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:28 PM, jodgi said:

Admin had stated they will link important sites front and center, so when @Felix Victor, @qw569 or whomever make the tools they will become common knowledge.

I intend to continue developing my map and its tools. Using whatever data the API will provide. No player is forced to use it btw 😀