Patch 27 - Naval Action is becoming a One Dimensional game

[derekticus]

When I first started playing/testing Naval Action, the game offered many avenues for a Player to explore, enjoy and get a sense of accomplishment from -  be it Exploring, Trading, Crafting, Smuggling, AI hunting, Mission running, Ganking/PvPing, and RvRing.  But as the game has developed over time many of these aspects have been diminished, dumbed-down and even eliminated altogether; always seemingly to satisfy the blood-lust of dedicated PvPers. 

For instance:  The slowing of Trading Ships in relationship to the speeds of the interceptors, and the maximum distance at which Ships can spot each other.  Back in the day, you might see an enemy player in an interceptor and be able to make good your Trader's escape -  especially if the intercepting Player lacked the ability to read the wind and properly determine an appropriate intercept angle.  By having the Ships visible at shorter distances and having the speed differential be so great, you have removed a player's OW sailing skill from the game.  Before it took skill, time and patience to tag and engage a skilled Trader captain; but now the intercept is all but guaranteed:  the interceptor only needs to point his Ship at the Trading ship to achieve an engagement.  This means there is less incentive, less chance of being a successful Smuggler/Trader.  So, an avenue for a player to have fun in the game has been eliminated...

Many of these measures to "increase the number of PvP opportunities" only serve to drive away MANY players from this beautiful and once complex game. 

If the only path to being successful in the game is to become a good PvPer, then you will continue to see the on-going erosion of your player base. 

The nostalgic nature of the game's subject matter attracts a VERY diverse group of players.  But when you pander only to one small element of those who sign on, then you risk losing the critical MASS needed to make your game sustainable.

[Cabral]

 I agree with you when you say that NA lost some of sandbox elements, but don't agree that traders have no chance against raiders. A trader lynx or trader cutter can run from any square sail ship in the game, just need to use the right wind angle, even with full hold. And a smart trader always plan the route and time of day to make the journey, that's how trader players outsmart interceptores and gives enjoyment in the end.

[Guest]

Agree on crafting, the two tier crafting system was pretty good, resources + materials = ship, it provided for two types of players, the crafter and the buyer (also the guy who did both), created a reasonable ship market between the two, crafting had depth.

But all lost now.

[Barbancourt]

30 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 I agree with you when you say that NA lost some of sandbox elements, but don't agree that traders have no chance against raiders. A trader lynx or trader cutter can run from any square sail ship in the game, just need to use the right wind angle, even with full hold.

If you're in a t-lynx or t-cutter you aren't a "trader" or "trading" yet. 

 

 

 

[Slim McSauce]

The one thing NA has always lacked in my eyes is pinning PVP players against each other. The only thing that does this is RVR there is no OW equivalent yet.

[Draymoor]

I agree that making traders slower has made trading more difficult and you're far more likely to get caught if spotted, but isn't that why you can have up to 4 ships in your fleet? You can have one or two warships to escort your traders and still make a good profit from a trade route. That's if you play by yourself, if players that enjoy trading or simply want to make money with trading were to form even larger trade fleets then you have even more protection against attackers. If you're talking about smuggling across enemy waters that have high player activity then yeah, that's much more dangerous, but then that's how it should be. 
The one thing that has indeed died is crafting, with the previous system it used to feel like you were building a ship. Now it's become boring and over simplified. I wish the devs do consider bringing back the old crafting system. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Draymoor

[RedNeckMilkMan]

All this talk about traders being vulnerable yet the Indiaman and LGV refit are excellent combat ships.

I have seen many fall the the battle indiaman courtesy of Aster.

The main issue is fir fir with no guns or upgrades. For the love of Admin put guns on your traders.

Edited November 8, 2018 by RedNeckMilkMan

[z4ys]

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

The one thing NA has always lacked in my eyes is pinning PVP players against each other. The only thing that does this is RVR there is no OW equivalent yet.

If player would want that they could do it already. But player don't want it in OW. OW means freedom of choice. Player choice is to avoid. Even in RvR they avoid due to diplo and alliances.

[Slim McSauce]

16 minutes ago, z4ys said:

If player would want that they could do it already. But player don't want it in OW. OW means freedom of choice. Player choice is to avoid. Even in RvR they avoid due to diplo and alliances.

exactly. push them to fight each other, by choice people gank and cheese.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[admin]

6 hours ago, derekticus said:

By having the Ships visible at shorter distances and having the speed differential be so great, you have removed a player's OW sailing skill from the game.  Before it took skill, time and patience to tag and engage a skilled Trader captain; but now the intercept is all but guaranteed:  the interceptor only needs to point his Ship at the Trading ship to achieve an engagement.  This means there is less incentive, less chance of being a successful Smuggler/Trader.  So, an avenue for a player to have fun in the game has been eliminated...

Hello mate

This never happened. Viewing distance was never adjusted. Some one made this up and you are repeating 
But speeds increased - thus you reach the target faster.. this could create this perception that targets are closer.

[Palatinose]

Let's say you have two Indiamans with guns and repairs. Buy a trading good for ~4k each. That's ~85 units of the good on these two traders. Sold in a consuming port it will sell for ~8k. Substract the tax (max 10%) and the profit is ~210k. Inflation-adjusted that's nearly 4 million of old gold currency. FOUR MILLION! In one trade run, with an average trading good. Sorry but if there was no risk for that, we would truely see a one-dimensional gameplay.

[Miaowi]

I like the fact that NA is hardcore. I tend to get bored once I've "made it" so Naval Action presents a unique experience for me.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP in stating that NA is becoming one dimensional. We had Sea Trails, then the OW and the list of features and things to do has only increased during Alpha.

With regards to trading and moving mats, as a trader myself I like the tense experience and although I do get tagged sometimes (usually my own fault) I'm able to correctly drive my boat out of a trap in almost all instances. (I did get caught in the Shroud Cay patrol area once moving Teak and White Oak but this was a dumb move on my part and easily avoided in retrospect) Now I could lament the fact that I got caught, talk about trader speed and sight distance or I could look at it a little deeper and realise that I wasn't playing very well. The wind was not favourable on my route and I went straight from a to b. My cargo was valuable to me so I should have avoided the trade lanes and detoured safely

I'm part of a small clan (3 members) and we happily partake in all elements of NA - be this Exploring, Trading, Crafting, Smuggling, AI hunting, Mission running, Ganking/PvPing and with the recent PVE mission content I don't see how this game is only pandering to the pvp crowd. 

 

[victor]

3 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

Let's say you have two Indiamans with guns and repairs. Buy a trading good for ~4k each. That's ~85 units of the good on these two traders. Sold in a consuming port it will sell for ~8k. Substract the tax (max 10%) and the profit is ~210k. Inflation-adjusted that's nearly 4 million of old gold currency. FOUR MILLION! In one trade run, with an average trading good. Sorry but if there was no risk for that, we would truely see a one-dimensional gameplay.

You are doing it wrong mate.

The correct comparison is "what could you buy with 4 millions gold?" (Answer: a live oak/white oak santisima) vs "what can you buy now with 210 k silver?" (answer: definitely not a Santisima, not even a Buce or a Bellona, and neither a fourth rate ... maybe a trinco).

I was trading national goods before patch using indiamans and:

- selling price was 3x purchasing prince, now is 2x

- stocks spawned in given ports, now they appear to spawn random (and roaming around with a fleet or indiaman may be far risky)

- replace and Indiaman was way cheaper than now.

So basically, trade is now quite less profitable and much more risky than before. And I hardly understand why something that has become LESS profitable has become also FAR MORE risky. Reward shall follow risk, as per Devs said.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by victor

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

All this talk about traders being vulnerable yet the Indiaman and LGV refit are excellent combat ships.

I have seen many fall the the battle indiaman courtesy of Aster.

The main issue is fir fir with no guns or upgrades. For the love of Admin put guns on your traders.

The other day I had my hualing alt in a trader brig with guns and two brigs in fleet.  Get tagged by a Prussian I never seen before in a Herc and two snows.  I was loaded with teak from Harbour Island.  He sent the snows to sink my escaping T brigs.  Kinda dick move as most would just let them go.  Well I’m doing the chase game and been pegging his front mast with my stern guns as he shoots his chaser sat me.  Wasn’t a very good player. I did two zig zags to put broad sides on him aiming for that front mast.  Last ball hits snap he’s now at 43% sales.  I hit my repair (was only at 73%).  I put her in my best wind and escape him easly.  I been reminding folks since I demasted a Herc with a simple t brig with 6 mediums.  Just got to fight back. 

[victor]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

you cant compare it because it was not only a patch that changed names of currenc but also a patch that changed the whole OW gameplay and crafting which is fine and the current gameplay is just better

I can compare for sure mate. It's simple as that: much more risk for traders for quite less rewards.

Crafing it's simply easier but much more expensive. Is this better?

But there's no actual point in going on debating: this game has taken  now clearly the path of appealing one kind of player (a PVP oriented player that has several hours to throw at the game each day), which will lead inevitably to the path of recurring new paid DLCs to keep the servers up.

If you like it. Good for you.

Edited November 8, 2018 by victor

[victor]

Just now, rediii said:

there are not less rewards. You can make ~400k reals in one trip.

 

Shipmarket didnt settle yet due to dubs. Needs a bit more time. Right now you cant say any price is fixed yet.

My prevision is that ships' price will increase. But let's see.

This is just a masked "austerity/hardcore patch" 2.0. It did not increase playerbase last time, it will not this time.

Edited November 8, 2018 by victor

[Roronoa]

23 minutes ago, victor said:

This is just a masked "austerity/hardcore patch" 2.0. It did not increase playerbase last time, it will not this time.

I dont think the aim of this patch was to immedietly bring more players to the game. We can talk about numbers/new players after release, advertising and marketing of the game.

[Old Crusty]

4 hours ago, rediii said:

there are not less rewards. You can make ~400k reals in one trip.

 

Shipmarket didnt settle yet due to dubs. Needs a bit more time. Right now you cant say any price is fixed yet.

Yes, you could make 4K in one trip, because of RNG you could make less than a thousand in 5 trips. 

BAD, VERY BAD

 

3 hours ago, Roronoa Sensei said:

I dont think the aim of this patch was to immedietly bring more players to the game. We can talk about numbers/new players after release, advertising and marketing of the game.

You can get thousands of new players but the direction of the game is to throw them to the wolfs. You will lose almost all of them in the first week.

[Old Crusty]

30 minutes ago, rediii said:

there is no RNG in trading. Go to aport, drop a buy contract - wait

Yes, sorry, I was thinking hunting not trading. My bad

[Hawkwood]

4 hours ago, victor said:

I can compare for sure mate. It's simple as that: much more risk for traders for quite less rewards.

Crafing it's simply easier but much more expensive. Is this better?

But there's no actual point in going on debating: this game has taken  now clearly the path of appealing one kind of player (a PVP oriented player that has several hours to throw at the game each day), which will lead inevitably to the path of recurring new paid DLCs to keep the servers up.

If you like it. Good for you.

I don`t know what makes you believe that trading became less profitable and more dangerous since the latest patch came up. Like some mentioned here, 1 trip per day is more than enough.

 

[jodgi]

12 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

the two tier crafting system was pretty good, resources + materials = ship, it provided for two types of players

hmmpf... But it never did. Maaaybe there was a fledgeling materials crafter/seller market after austerity patch (which chased away too many players) but that pretty much died off after eco stuff and rewards were adjusted.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Hunting is RNG... i have no idea who is commanding the "enemy ship" nor if I survive the raid. That doesn't stop me from trying.

So the sequence is - RNG sail...RNG some ship is beyond the horizon... RNG tag position... akf or not...attack or not attack.... RNG opponent skill.... RNG what equipment and books and woods his ship has.... RNG if he makes many mistakes... RNG wind rotations.... RNG if I win or not... RNG If I win, check his hold.

Embrace the unknown. It pays off.

 

[victor]

5 hours ago, Hawkwood said:

I don`t know what makes you believe that trading became less profitable and more dangerous since the latest patch came up. Like some mentioned here, 1 trip per day is more than enough.

 

I already explained why.

It's quite clear that your "one trip per day" point of view is the one of a PVP player that makes also trading.

Mine is the POV of a player making (or, better, that used to make) trade most of its time.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by victor

[victor]

9 hours ago, Roronoa Sensei said:

I dont think the aim of this patch was to immedietly bring more players to the game. We can talk about numbers/new players after release, advertising and marketing of the game.

If they change the game not to attract more players, IMHO they are doing it wrong.

If they think that they will get a lot of players at launch with a game that got such an awful alpha review rate in steam and that is a newbie-killer game (sorta eve online difficult, but with half the half the half of the half of the content and of the deepness eve has), IMHO they are doing it wrong.

If you think this game, given the direction it took, will not become a DLC feast, well ... you are an optimist.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by victor

[Palatinose]

On 11/8/2018 at 10:46 AM, victor said:

You are doing it wrong mate.

The correct comparison is "what could you buy with 4 millions gold?" (Answer: a live oak/white oak santisima) vs "what can you buy now with 210 k silver?" (answer: definitely not a Santisima, not even a Buce or a Bellona, and neither a fourth rate ... maybe a trinco).

I was trading national goods before patch using indiamans and:

- selling price was 3x purchasing prince, now is 2x

- stocks spawned in given ports, now they appear to spawn random (and roaming around with a fleet or indiaman may be far risky)

- replace and Indiaman was way cheaper than now.

So basically, trade is now quite less profitable and much more risky than before. And I hardly understand why something that has become LESS profitable has become also FAR MORE risky. Reward shall follow risk, as per Devs said.

 

In your comparison you assume that the value of a 1st rate has not changed. But it did, and significantly. Let's say a shop price of a 1st rate was ~2.5 million gold, now the production of one first rate is probably the same, but in silver. In the calculation the trader would buy Doubloons for 50 reals each and ressources for shop prices - it's a very vague calculation, nothing is really settled yet. In that comparison the 1st rate prices have increased by a factor of  ~20 while the reward of trading has been increased by a factor around 3(*). How can you compare that to pre patch values? 1st rates are just a bad example, imo all of us need to clear their minds from the 1st spam we had. It won't be here anymore.

Not only the trader has to put more effort in getting a ship, but everybody has. And as all ports are still filled to the roof of the storages with previously worthless goods that are now profitable a trader can dock in all ports and make his sail. Nearly every port  is making profit now, people trade like crazy and still you speak of less profit.

If I was reawarded and looted overall 1k Doubloons in pvp, that's a lot. Assuming "dubs" can be sold for 100 each - that's 100k reals. Make it 200 to double it. Still 200k for the risk - it's the same for a pvper as for a trader - is an okayish reward and absolutely compareable to a trade run (which takes less time).

Yes distribution of drops of goods seems rather RNGish at the moment and still the richest players will be the traders. Sailing on nearly entirely safe routes back and forth, checking contracts - perhaps now a trader has to put in some work. I speak as a trader myself and making loads of money via trading was the easiest thing before the patch, and it still is.

 

(*)pre patch profit of two indiamans filled with Gold Coast Ivory (one of the better trading goods) was ~1.2kk gold. Now - as posted above - 210k silver. Conversion ratio of gold -> reals = 1/25, adjusted to inflation ~1/20. Even with adjustment to 1/10 it was 120k vs 210k.