Risk verses reward

[Christendom]

VLast night we had a 3v3 up on the east coast where my side was a bit out gunned, yet prevailed.  

I got 2 of the kills and we kept the bellona, it was a decent one and we knew we’d get hosed on doubloons for it. As predicted, I got 9 dubs as a reward and I think Wraith looted 100 or so from one of the holds.  Let’s say in total we got 200 split between the 3 of us.  Not even enough to purchase a navy hull.  Not much for 2 hours work, albeit the bellona was a nice catch.  The loser of the engagement risked everything and lost, with zero gain.  

Not a whole lot of incentive to go out there and try again.  I got more doubloons snagging an AI tsnow on the way home.  Quite frankly it’s a joke. 

While I was never a fan of the PVP mark system, one could sustain themselves with it and replace their losses.  Now that PVP is so costly one had to grind AI just to get the ships to lose.  The level of effort to get the coin to craft the ships is not worth the ease you could lose it.  Ganking will be 100x more common.

Doubloon payout needs to be significantly higher if this system is to succeed.  40:1 seems to be the ratio.  As it stands currently the new econo / reward system seems rushed and poorly thought out.... much like this entire patch.

Every single time this game moves toward a more hardcore and grindy stance people quit and this time is no exception. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Christendom

[Lord Amplify of Key West]

it seems the recent patch is the final nail in the coffin

[Beeekonda]

4 minutes ago, Lord Amplify of Key West said:

it seems the recent patch is the final nail in the coffin

It's actually ok  good if we will get few things figured/tuned out

Fees are dumb tho

Edited November 2, 2018 by Beeekonda

[staun]

6 minutes ago, Christendom said:

 Every single time this game moves toward a more hardcore and grindy stance people quit and this time is no exception. 

I agree with you. But thats the game that admin wants. Sure there are players that want that game.

Imo ships is way to expensive. Unless you are going to sail 5 rate and belove. But it is easy enough. They make the game they want. You choose if and how to play it. And who knows. Maybe go extrem hardcore will appeal to more players.

[William Death]

8 minutes ago, Christendom said:

VLast night we had a 3v3 up on the east coast where my side was a bit out gunned, yet prevailed.  

I got 2 of the kills and we kept the bellona, it was a decent one and we knew we’d get hosed on doubloons for it. As predicted, I got 9 dubs as a reward and I think Wraith looted 100 or so from one of the holds.  Let’s say in total we got 200 split between the 3 of us.  Not even enough to purchase a navy hull.  Not much for 2 hours work, albeit the bellona was a nice catch.  The loser of the engagement risked everything and lost, with zero gain.  

Not a whole lot of incentive to go out there and try again.  I got more doubloons snagging an AI tsnow on the way home.  Quite frankly it’s a joke. 

While I was never a fan of the PVP mark system, one could sustain themselves with it and replace their losses.  Now that PVP is so costly one had to grind AI just to get the ships to lose.  The level of effort to get the coin to craft the ships is not worth the ease you could lose it.  Ganking will be 100x more common.

Doubloon payout needs to be significantly higher if this system is to succeed.  40:1 seems to be the ratio.  As it stands currently the new econo / reward system seems rushed and poorly thought out.... much like this entire patch.

Every single time this game moves toward a more hardcore and grindy stance people quit and this time is no exception. 

Agreed 100%.

The doubloons you get from sinking the ship through combat (as in, the same way PvP marks worked) already go into our doubloon chests. This is a good thing. Unfortunately, the rewards are terribly off from what they should be. They're worthless. They seem to be going off the old mark system, because you and I both got only 9 doubloons and I think Wraith did too. This reflects what we would have gotten in PvP marks for sinking two frigates.

So, if they fix the rewards to give us the proper amounts, I think there would be less people upset (conversion rate from PvP marks to doubloons seems to be 40 doubloons = 1 PvP mark, based off of the navy hull refits, as you pointed out).

I'd have been much happier about the patch if we'd each gotten 360 doubloons from that fight (9 PvP marks each), plus the captured 5/5 Bellona, and had more doubloons looted from holds (that we had to carry back). 

This will also encourage people to go out and fight, even if they may get sunk. You go out, fight, sink a ship or two and get sunk, you don't get 100% of the doubloons you earned that trip, but you at least got a decent amount transferred directly to your reward's chest so you can recover. And the people that sunk you are happy because they got all the doubloons you had in your hold, plus whatever might pop up in your hold when they sink you, plus the amount that your ship was worth just for being a PvP kill (remember, 40x the old PvP mark value).

[Christendom]

If payouts and prices of ships are meant to be this way and won’t change, it might be worth revisiting the idea of ship duras again.  

[Angus MacDuff]

15 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Every single time this game moves toward a more hardcore and grindy stance people quit and this time is no exception

I'm still trying to figure out if the unhappiness is about the game being more hardcore and grindy or if its simply resistance to change and not having all the nuances figured out.  I expect we'll see some hotfixes based on feedback (they took away the 8 knot boarding scandal) and as we figure out how to play in this new reality, people will calm down (with the regular exceptions).

[Jean Ribault]

Just now, Christendom said:

If payouts and prices of ships are meant to be this way and won’t change, it might be worth revisiting the idea of ship duras again.  

Should've never removed multi-dura to begin with.  It was never a good idea.

[Christendom]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

I'm still trying to figure out if the unhappiness is about the game being more hardcore and grindy or if its simply resistance to change and not having all the nuances figured out.  I expect we'll see some hotfixes based on feedback (they took away the 8 knot boarding scandal) and as we figure out how to play in this new reality, people will calm down (with the regular exceptions).

It’s reward vs effort.  In WoW quests or items took months to grind, but players endured it because the juice was worth the squeeze.   In naval action it very much never the case.  

This is an open world full loot MMO game.  PVP is meant to be rapid and losses easily recoverable.  DLC ships and their popularity is enough proof of this.  This patch is a complete opposite of that mindset and is floundering as a result.  

[TheHaney]

Just now, Christendom said:

PVP is meant to be rapid and losses easily recoverable.

I'd agree, but since they adjusted Admiralty ships to the new prices I've noticed it takes essentially one trader brig or LGV to pay the full cost of a frigate plus guns. Granted, it's not exactly competitive, but I've started to be less worried about encountering players since, at least from a very base level, losses are easily replaced.

[Angus MacDuff]

I think @William Death made a very good point.  If your kills in that battle had given more Doubloons as a straight up reward, a lot of the unhappiness would pass.  In the old world, 10PVP marks was a substantial reward.  10 Doubloons as a reward is more of an afterthought.  PVP success should give us the highest rewards in a PVP game.  I like the random amount of Doubloons that can be found in the hold as loot, but we expect something more for a PVP fight.  It doesn't even have to be Doubloons (since they are not PVP mark replacements), but if it's not, then what will it be? 

[staun]

14 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

I'd agree, but since they adjusted Admiralty ships to the new prices I've noticed it takes essentially one trader brig or LGV to pay the full cost of a frigate plus guns. Granted, it's not exactly competitive..

So another way to feed casual players to the PvP players? 

[TheHaney]

2 minutes ago, staun said:

So another way to feed casual players to the PvP players? 

Not all PvP players are hardcore, and not all casual players stick to PvE.

More importantly, this patch is clearly attempting to bridge the gap between PvP and PvE players. And, as a PvE player, I'd say it's done so successfully, albeit with many ancillary issues. I've been forced into PvP several times since the patch specifically because I've had to venture outside of "safe" areas, and I've picked up more skills in the last two days because of it than in the prior week of play.

Edited November 2, 2018 by TheHaney

[staun]

2 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

Not all PvP players are hardcore, and not all casual players stick to PvE.

More importantly, this patch is clearly attempting to bridge the gap between PvP and PvE players. And, as a PvE player, I'd say it's done so successfully, albeit with many ancillary issues. I've been forced into PvP several times since the patch specifically because I've had to venture outside of "safe" areas, and I've picked up more skills in the last two days because of it than in the prior week of play.

Don’t get my wrong. We are on a PvP server. There should be PvP. I don’t as an example like the reinforcement zone. But I also know I don’t want to grind Ai’s to get enough douplons to buy my ships. As it is now I simply have to win to many fights to replace a ship. I can sail a 5 rate and belove more ore less cost free. But that just dosent help me. 

I done a lot of PvP and are in a clan that done a lot of PvP. But since the patch, we all stopped. Plain an simple.

[Old Crusty]

3 hours ago, admin said:

no-one is forced to pvp

in fact many active pvp players say that rewards are now better in PVE and tell us that no-one should be forced to pve

I will take the time to explain how you have forced people into unprofitable PvP.

After the update everything is now all about Doubloons. To buy anything that you need to compete in PvP or RvR you need Doubloons. The best upgrades, and the Bigger ships need Doubloons. Thousands of Doubloons to build a SOL but you cannot sell it for Doubloons. The players with the majority of the Doubloons will be setting the price of Doubloons  for everyone else.

   So how does a player that is of average skill get Doubloons so we can buy the best upgrades to try and compete with the higher skilled players? Simple, we sail to where these higher skilled players live and hope we find a trader To sink or capture. Then we hope that the Trader has hundreds of Doubloons, and then we hope we can kill the Enemy players waiting for us outside our battle, or that jumped into our battle. After the battle we hope we can escape the Enemy players so we can get back to port and actually get our reward.

MISSIONS.

The concept for the missions that the Developers came up with is very good in my opinion. The problem is that to fulfill the missions you must go to Enemy territory where there are Enemy players waiting for you to attack the AI for your missions so that they can attack you after the battle and take your loot. There is the kill missions that are in friendly territory but the rewards are very small.

The game in a couple of weeks will boil down to this. Waiting for people to come into your territory hunting AI so that you can gank them. If you go after AI fleets in Enemy territory you will have about a 100% chance of getting into PvP. You won’t be able to go hunting by yourself because you will spend most of your time running or getting killed. 

If you avoid going into Enemy territory you will not be able to earn enough Doubloons to teleport to your outer Outposts so you will close them and now only have Outposts in home waters.

Patrol Zone: I am one of the rare people that used the Patrol Zones. I was able to earn PvP marks by PvPing even when I lost. Yes I lost a lot of ships but with what I earned I could replace them. Now the rewards for the Patrol Zone is a joke with the new currency.

With this new patch the people that are not good at PvP will quit. When they quit, that’s make some players that are still playing the worst PvPers. They won’t be able to earn enough Doubloons to compete so they will quit. That cycle will continue until the death of the game.

I write all of this from the perspective of a USA player. Along the US coast we have hardly seen any AI fleets that we can harvest. A few Russian AI fleets thatvwe will now all compete for. We are forced to go to Enemy territory.

   I hope this explains everything without being to long.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Old Crusty

[staun]

6 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

I will take the time to explain how you have forced people into unprofitable PvP.

After the update everything is now all about Doubloons. To buy anything that you need to compete in PvP or RvR you need Doubloons. The best upgrades, and the Bigger ships need Doubloons. Thousands of Doubloons to build a SOL but you cannot sell it for Doubloons. The players with the majorit’s of the Doubloons will be setting the price of Doubloons  for everyone else.

   So how does a player that is of average skill get Doubloons so we can buy the best upgrades to try and compete with the higher skilled players? Simple, we sail to where these higher skilled players live and hope we find a trader To sink or capture. Then we hope that the Trader has hundreds of Doubloons, and then we hope we can kill the Enemy players waiting for us outside our battle, or that jumped into our battle. After the battle we hope we can escape the Enemy players so we can get back to port and actually get our reward.

MISSIONS.

The concept for the missions that the Developers came up with is very good in my opinion. The problem is that to fulfill the missions you must go to Enemy territory where there are Enemy players waiting for you to attack the AI for your missions so that they can attack you after the battle and take your loot. There is the kill missions that are in friendly territory but the rewards are very small.

The game in a couple of weeks will boil down to this. Waiting for people to come into your territory hunting AI so that you can gank them. If you go after AI fleets in Enemy territory you will have about a 100% chance of getting into PvP. You won’t be able to go hunting by yourself because you will spend most of your time running or getting killed. 

Mid you avoid going into Enemy territory you will not be able to earn enough Doubloons to teleport to your outer Outposts so you will close them and now only have Outposts in home waters.

Patrol Zone: I am one of the rare people that used the Patrol Zones. I was able to earn PvP marks by PvPing even when I lost. Yes I lost a lot of ships but with what I earned I could replace them. Now the rewards for the Patrol Zone is a joke with the new currency.

With this new patch the people that are not good at PvP will quit. When they quit, that’s make some players that are still playing the worst PvPers. They won’t be able to earn enough Doubloons to compete so they will quit. That cycle will continue until the death of the game.

I write all of this from the perspective of a USA player. Along the US coast we have hardly seen any AI fleets that we can harvest. A few Russian AI fleets thatvwe will now all compete for. We are forced to go to Enemy territory.

   I hope this explains everything without being to long.

But admin is right. You are not forced. You can just wait in your Capitol zone until a Ai comes by. You also can sail ships up to 5 rate, they don’t cost dublons. 

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, staun said:

But admin is right. You are not forced. You can just wait in your Capitol zone until a Ai comes by. You also can sail ships up to 5 rate, they don’t cost dublons. 

Not so.  No enemy AI will come to your Capitol Zone

[TheHaney]

14 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

If you go after AI fleets in Enemy territory you will have about a 100% chance of getting into PvP.

Hasn't been the case so far for me. Especially if you just cruise in an area of open water *between* enemy ports of the same flag.

14 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

If you avoid going into Enemy territory you will not be able to earn enough Doubloons to teleport to your outer Outposts so you will close them and now only have Outposts in home waters.

You can protect your own NPC shipping via PvP, which hopefully will be balanced to provide equitable doubloons to PvE.

14 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

With this new patch the people that are not good at PvP will quit.

I suck at PvP and of all the problems the patch has, the gameplay loop changes are the part I actually enjoy.

 

Also, if you're US, you have *Several* solo ports down south, surrounded by enemy ports. If you sit outside of those ports, guess what kind of shipping will be sailing on by for you to kill?

Edited November 2, 2018 by TheHaney

[Old Crusty]

17 minutes ago, staun said:

But admin is right. You are not forced. You can just wait in your Capitol zone until a Ai comes by. You also can sail ships up to 5 rate, they don’t cost dublons. 

I do believe you missed the part about no AI Enemy fleets on our coast

[staun]

33 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Not so.  No enemy AI will come to your Capitol Zone

And are you sure of that. I seen plenty of polish and swedish at the danish Capitol.

Edit:

Plenty might be a stech, But if you are ready to wait about 20 min.

Edited November 2, 2018 by staun

[Old Crusty]

37 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

Hasn't been the case so far for me. Especially if you just cruise in an area of open water *between* enemy ports of the same flag.

You can protect your own NPC shipping via PvP, which hopefully will be balanced to provide equitable doubloons to PvE.

I suck at PvP and of all the problems the patch has, the gameplay loop changes are the part I actually enjoy.

 

Also, if you're US, you have *Several* solo ports down south, surrounded by enemy ports. If you sit outside of those ports, guess what kind of shipping will be sailing on by for you to kill?

I think you better look at the map again

[Old Crusty]

7 minutes ago, staun said:

And are you sure of that. I seen plenty of polish and swedish at the danish Capitol.

Edit:

Plenty might be a stech, But if you are ready to wait about 20 min.

Look at the map and see the distance between your Capital and Enemy ports. Then look at the distance of Charleston from Enemy ports. Huge difference. That’s why you will see Enemy AI and we don’t 

[Old Crusty]

Just now, rediii said:

why dont you make a outpost somewhere and go there?

I will never understand it

 

I want to unbox my Bucentare, Constitution Classic, Dianna, or any other ship. I am an average, at best, skilled player. I think it is insane to take a new ship into a high probability of PvP situation. Do you seek out PvP in a ship with no ship knowledge? Did you know that all new players will have no ship knowledge on any ship they get? This new mission method is throwing players to the PvP Wolfs.

I have Outposts in far out neutral ports. I use them to go to the Patrol Zones because they rewarded lower skill players like me and allowed me to stay somewhat competitive. Now the rewards from the Patrol Zones will only cover my teleport in and out. I will be closing those Outposts.

[Corona Lisa]

Oh no...players might encounter PvP on the PvP server and might even be forced to take an even fight instead of sitting in the safezone all day and waiting to gank someone

[TheHaney]

1 hour ago, Old Crusty said:

I do believe you missed the part about no AI Enemy fleets on our coast

Truxillo. Playon. Frozen Cay.

Shroud Cay. La Tortue. Tumbado. El Rancho. Dariena. La Mona. Guayaguayare. Aves.

 

These are all ports, American-owned or free, that you can set up shop at right now. All of those ports are in the thick of enemy AI shipping. All of those ports allow you to kill AI without venturing out of sight of a dock, if you so choose.