True Economy: An Experiment and Vote

[jpjchris]

Kind gentlemen and ladies,

Who favors the idea of removing the European Trader facet of the economy and going full player-based? Is it even feasible at this time, with the current size of the playerbase?

...I would argue it is plenty feasible, given increased and/or cheaper yields from player-owned facilities. Cast your vote and let us all know your thoughts!

Cordially Yours,

JPJChris

Edited September 19, 2018 by jpjchris

[Galt]

I'd say not yet. Maybe for release but for this beta I don't feel like there are enough players yet. There are a lot of times that I have to rely on nations opening ports to I can place contracts to insta-fill. I'd say if the population goes above 3k then make the move and see how it goes. But not with 500 at peak server time. 

 

[Teutonic]

6 minutes ago, Galt said:

I'd say not yet. Maybe for release but for this beta I don't feel like there are enough players yet. There are a lot of times that I have to rely on nations opening ports to I can place contracts to insta-fill. I'd say if the population goes above 3k then make the move and see how it goes. But not with 500 at peak server time. 

 

Plus, players are extreme hoarders and it just seems extremely difficult to ever get anyone outside of your own respective clan to sell you something without the insane prices.

Ideally I'd like the EU trader gone, but realistically it's not possible at this time and I would enjoy a look into buidlings and production before we looked at the EU trader.

 

[Galt]

45 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Plus, players are extreme hoarders and it just seems extremely difficult to ever get anyone outside of your own respective clan to sell you something without the insane prices.

Ideally I'd like the EU trader gone, but realistically it's not possible at this time and I would enjoy a look into buidlings and production before we looked at the EU trader.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Basically, in order for demand to be even close to met, there has to be enough supply. EU traders help to supplement that since there are so few producers, and that itself is a danger in a game where the demand is ships and the ability to play the game. So if that can't be met, people stop playing. 

[Barbancourt]

I've never used it, so I dunno.  What is the intended effect?

[jpjchris]

2 hours ago, Barbancourt said:

I've never used it, so I dunno.  What is the intended effect?

If you place a contract for an item at or above a certain set price, it fills automatically. Such is the mechanic.

[Barbancourt]

10 minutes ago, jpjchris said:

If you place a contract for an item at or above a certain set price, it fills automatically. Such is the mechanic.

Sure but it's a nosebleed price, and I think all the desirable upgrade crafting stuff like Greenheart Logs and Crooked Cedar don't qualify? 

[vazco]

7 hours ago, Barbancourt said:

Sure but it's a nosebleed price

Not exactly. It's sometimes worth spending 4x price to free up an outpost or save you a travel time, especially if you're running eco alone. With this outpost and time you can sometimes get more than price of resources. 

[Thonys]

we need real economy and no AI, traders

get rid of the contract idiotery

make the stuff yourself 

instead of rng drops of goods  to the highest bidder

and if we continue with the ai trader for dropping instant goods..... make it 100 times the base price (that will change your mind)

if you want goody goody stuff sail for it an build it at your factories 

it stinks and is  lame at the same time  lubricate money favoritism

especially when the goods factories are at the middle (favored clans) of the fighting area..(i know areas where there is really nothing of value)

thats why we need a drastic change

 

sometimes it seems the lower part of the map is below the lower edge of the development screen when they make an issue of the buildings and goods

the same goes for ships i bed they can not even put a finger on the map if you ask them were Portugal is or holland , but hopefully, that will change 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Thonys

[Christendom]

Harvesting resources should go towards port taxes.  Unsure why it doesn’t.  

Removing EU trader would be ideal if we had 1000 players and a decent economy.  We do not.  

[jodgi]

I wonder... I haven't used the euro trader thing since before player production. Who uses it, for what and why?

(Is it for people without alts and dlc? I'm assuming you can't get white oak, teak, carta or whatever else...)

[Thonys]

21 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Harvesting resources should go towards port taxes.  Unsure why it doesn’t.  

Removing EU trader would be ideal if we had 1000 players and a decent economy.  We do not.  

the only thing what is needed is access to a building for everyone

if there is one player who makes a product there is from that point on ....  an economy and value

and not what we have now, a product what is available  for one nation ,and the rest can go to hell

it stinks

it is possible for a polish person to have a barbershop in France or England Gibraltar cape corn Cabo the la vela or whatever island.even in the old days and especially in the Caribbean area were there where more nationalities than islands

it's favoritism what we have now...

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Thonys

[Ink]

28 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I wonder... I haven't used the euro trader thing since before player production. Who uses it, for what and why?

(Is it for people without alts and dlc? I'm assuming you can't get white oak, teak, carta or whatever else...)

Euro traders main idea is to provide basic raw resources like oak, iron, stone, hemp etc. at a 4x of base price, you cannot get rare resources like white, live oak and such through the mechanic.

[John Jacob Astor]

53 minutes ago, Ink said:

Euro traders main idea is to provide basic raw resources like oak, iron, stone, hemp etc. at a 4x of base price, you cannot get rare resources like white, live oak and such through the mechanic.

The ET is a set of training wheels for new players.  The mechanic probably ought to be limited to ports in the immediate vicinity of a capital.  It's another form of safe zone, only in the economy.

Its effect on the the player-to-player economy is to throttle average returns on the sale of basic resources to well below that of dropped trade goods.  Which discourages new production.  Labor hours become impossible to factor into the return from the transaction.

Experienced players do not need it.

Couple changes to this with putting player contract activity on the same footing in the trader tool with port stock and we might not need it at all.  Any potential price gouging goes away when the player can see contract availability in a nearby port.

Training wheels.  Which I needed my first 30 days in the game.  I haven't used them since.  Even when I was running solo.

Edited September 20, 2018 by John Jacob Astor

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

Harvesting resources should go towards port taxes.  Unsure why it doesn’t.  

Removing EU trader would be ideal if we had 1000 players and a decent economy.  We do not.  

Tax's off anything sold or done in the port should go back to the clan that owns it.  Like production cost, repairs done in port and such.  That would make the insane tax you pay (pretty much 50%) on the port of any profits you make when you include the port maintance fee.

[z4ys]

I would like to see tax on used warehouse slots. Storage room is expesive and has to be guarded otherwise stuff may disappear May reduce hording + good for town owner + money drain

Edited September 20, 2018 by z4ys

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Decay.

[John Jacob Astor]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

I wonder... I haven't used the euro trader thing since before player production. Who uses it, for what and why?

(Is it for people without alts and dlc? I'm assuming you can't get white oak, teak, carta or whatever else...)

I'm quite curious as well.  I've been playing primarily and economic game for about eight months now so it clearly isn't necessary for anybody but very, very new players.

Players in clans don't need it.  Players with alts don't need it.  Players with the Admiralty DLC don't need it.

[Vernon Merrill]

Yes, decay OR VASTLY DECREASE the amount of material you can stack.

It makes little sense to me have caps on the number of DIFFERENT materials we can fit in a warehouse but not the AMOUNT of materials.

Looking at some screenshots with everyone having 10K of EVERYTHING absolutely makes the economy pointless.

 

What we have is a world of buyers and very few sellers.

 

[jodgi]

57 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Without the Euro trader mechanic, demand would go up, prices would go up... Enterprising individuals would start producing and selling said products.

Heh, you're describing the very reason why I decided to buy alts. I don't have the time nor the inclination to do terrible things like doing trade runs or grinding bots in order to get cash for the "enterprising individuals". I gladly supported GL with cash in order to protect myself from... um... enterprising markups. Euro traders is just inflation control. Traders went ballistic in the past, euro traders were put in place where shame should have been.

[jodgi]

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

So sell your precious PvP marks, no?  I can make 400k in PvP marks sinking a single trader brig... should be easy to keep yourself in ships that way...

Good point, some day I may get to the point where I have more marks than I need. I'm still grinding for the last admiralty book and there will always be a need to withdraw the good admiralty mods. We'll see. I play very casually because I don't have enough hours to spend on NA.

Ships have always been easy to get, even during austerity patch. Alt usage have made my ships ridiculously cheap and quick to click out. For a long time my alt focus has been to get the most expensive mods "for free" or at a very reasonable price.

Someone might want to cut my access to the eco easy mode. Here's where the sandbox becomes the mythical monster eating it's own tail: If you manage to hurt me you've also hurt ten normal players much worse. (I can see the words forming in your heads: "Clan based NA." Well, good luck with that...)

[jpjchris]

5 hours ago, Thonys said:

it's favoritism what we have now...

 

Good sir, I beg you to reconsider. The economy is an indifferent beast, with fortune only favoring the bold....it is quite similar to RL in that regard.

Devs: as I'm sure you have already gathered from my previous post, I am a massive proponent of modeling this game off of true-to-life examples.

Pay a professional economist to analyze this game's markets! There are actual economists who have analyzed EVE Online's economy, and I'm 100% certain you'll be able to find one which would enjoy analyzing NA.

Cordially Yours,

JPJChris

Edited September 20, 2018 by jpjchris

[jpjchris]

3 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Decay.

Forgive me — could you elaborate? You posit an interesting thing...

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, jpjchris said:

Forgive me — could you elaborate? You posit an interesting thing...

Victuals will spoil, wood will rot, metal will rust, ropes will get brittle, salt will get rock, ... given enough time sitting forgotten in a corner of a warehouse...

[Beeekonda]

5 hours ago, Ink said:

Euro traders main idea is to provide basic raw resources like oak, iron, stone, hemp etc. at a 4x of base price, you cannot get rare resources like white, live oak and such through the mechanic.

But its not 4x base price. I put contracts at much lover rates