Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[admin]

26 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Absolutely correct. The Canon obusier was developed by Paixhans in the 1820s, which makes it quite difficult for Diana to have carried them before she went out of service.

 

My last post on this subject. I promise

I believe that you are mistaking Paixhans gun (canon obusier 80 developed in 1827) with just canon obusier 24. 
 

 

10 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

You clearly do not understand the point I was trying to make... This was never meant to be a discussion... I asked you a fair question regarding whether or not these guns were present on the main gundeck of the Diana. It is a simple yes or no question which I do not claim to have the right answer to.

 

Cannon obusier 6 = 6lb gun using french classification.
Thus I did not and still dont get it. Please rephrase the question Percival.

The main gun deck (lowest deck) of diana carried 6 24lb guns in 1815 the rest were 12lb guns. The source is Threedecks.  (not 6lb guns)
3-6lb guns could be carried on quarterdeck and forecastle or decks above main gundeck. 
 

[Archaos]

The literal translation of Obuses is Howitzer and the article https://www.todoababor.es/historia/armamento-buques-real-armada/  has a section which translated reads:

The naval howitzer

Unlike the French, the Spaniards did seek and propose a good alternative to the carronadas.

48-pound howitzer with carriage placed on slide. Illustration of Everything to port.

The marine howitzers projected by the General Artillery Commissioner Francisco Javier Rovira, were light pieces designed to launch mainly grenades with direct shot and to increase the high fires of the ships.

24-pound naval howitzer and its upper view slide. Illustration of Everything to port.

The ammunition that could be used in these howitzers were bombs and shrapnel , although due to the technical difficulty and handling for the launching of the first ones they were not used, practically leaving the shells for the firing of shrapnel at close range.

If a good method had been obtained to be able to shoot bombs, with effectiveness and without danger, Rovira's howitzers would have become fearsome weapons , which would have given a great artillery advantage to Spanish ships .

24-pound howitzer with its rigging and with a carriage placed on a slide. Thanks to the slide, the piece could move laterally much like carronades, giving the howitzer more room to maneuver than a conventional carriage. The slides were also tested with embossed cannons. Illustration of Everything to port.

Initially, howitzers were fired at 24 pounds in 1791, after tests with carronades. They were installed in the castle or poop of the ships in carriage put on slide mainly, although in their beginnings they were also mounted on gun carriages.

They could be carried in large quantities in these high parts of the ships because they were of little weight . A 24-pound howitzer weighed like a 6-pound cannon only. In 1798 a specific regulation of howitzer was published , indicating the number of these pieces to assemble, from the large line ships to sloops and smaller vessels, with different calibers and number according to the type of vessel. This regulation was updated again in 1803.

[Jim Beamreach]

To the lb and size thinks i was reading the last pages. Im 174cm tall and have a wight of around 90kg. Has there someone a problem with this fell free too discuss.

Wash the blood from your decks guys, its a Game.

Nice to see Br changes and a new Frig. Looking forward to the next upcoming Patches.

[Percival Merewether]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

I still dont get it. Please rephrase the question. 
If i got it correctly.

The main gun deck (lowest deck) of diana carried 6 24lb guns in 1815. 
the source is Threedecks. 

3-6lb guns could be carried on quarterdeck and forecastle or decks above main gundeck

Yes that was my question, thank you for the answer. My source is also Threedecks, and I understood it the following way:

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2788

Main gundeck:

• 26 Spanish 12-Pounder

Forecastle and Quarterdeck:

• 6 Spanish 24-Pound Obusier
• 6 Spanish 6-Pounder

As I'm sure you can understand, this caused a bit of confusion for me. I'm guessing the real layout (1815)  is to be understood in the following way then:

Main gundeck:

• 20 Spanish 12-Pounder
• 6 Spanish 24-Pound Obusier

Forecastle and Quarterdeck:

• 6 Spanish 12-Pounder
• 6 Spanish 6-Pounder

Am I correct?

Edited August 28, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

 

Am I correct?

I think their db forces you to enter new type of gun in a new line. Some ships have 5 lines (even having only 3 decks).

[admin]

Once all of definitions of obusier including newly introduced "obus" will be properly checked by @Sella22 @Malachi @Fluffy Fishy and many other volunteer researchers we will be able to properly define her gun composition. If enough evidence is provided that obusiers are spanish carronades obusier vaisseau, not french short pattern guns canon obusiers, we will fix the composition. 

One concern though. Previously when history interfered with gameplay and balance we picked history (always). 
Ask any active player and he already hopes diana will be his favorite pvp ship. Until some hardcore historians will ask to ignore balance and turn her into a useless brick. Just like all other medium and light 5th rates. Honest opinion - dont bash us for it - this year we pick balance. History must balance with gameplay - there is no other option as it is a multiplayer game. Balanced by cost, or speed or turning, or rareness. 

 

[Percival Merewether]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

I think their db forces you to enter new type of gun in a new line. Some ships have 5 lines (even having only 3 decks).

Alright, thanks a lot.

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

Ask any active player and he already hopes diana will be his favorite pvp ship ...

Any active player wants his fav ship to perform best of all ships. But she is just a 5th rate so still "no real ship" compared to 1st-3rd rates.

 

 

[Slim McSauce]

Cool update. Are we ever going to see swivels for all vessels? Could be the balancing factor for shallow, open decked ships.

[Fenris]

8 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Any active player wants his fav ship to perform best of all ships. But she is just a 5th rate so still "no real ship" compared to 1st-3rd rates.

 

 

A Requin fan speaking about "real ships", and comparing 5th rates to 1st-3rd...

Lol.

[admin]

2 hours ago, Sella22 said:

It's not something that I can't live with. I'm just trying to find an alternative that will be aligned to what she actually could carry. Same goes for all the ships. The situation of overgunning is not ideal for me but I won't lose any sleep about it as well. It wasn't my intention to sound like that. That's the problem with written speech I guess. In the end you make the call.

We do want ships to be balanced useful AND historical (at least not far from history)
We do not want to put 24 lb guns on it just because we want it to be strong. We want 24 guns because we believe in a certain definition of canon - obusier (24lb obusier) and believe that exactly those guns were on this frigate.

There are just 3 alternatives actually
Diana gundeck has 
24lb carronades (obusiers meaning OBUS - carronades)) - we have them in game
24lb guns (obusiers meaning canon obusiers similar to blomfield) - we have them in game in form of medium guns
24lb special guns (obusiers meaning howitzers - eg 24lb edinorogs). we have them in game in form of edinorogs.

 But i prefer second and third option as this ship brings an alternative to heavy frigates even if it is rare or expensive. I would not lose sleep over it too though - just need more real sources disproving our theory - so we can change the ship before players get used to it.

I think its a translation issue

Lets just not get lost in translation for too long. 

[Lovec1990]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

We do want ships to be balanced useful AND historical (at least not far from history)
We do not want to put 24 lb guns on it just because we want it to be strong. We want 24 guns because we believe in a certain definition of canon - obusier. 

There are just 3 alternatives actually
Diana gundeck has 
24lb carronades (obusiers meaning OBUS - carronades)) - we have them in game
24lb guns (obusiers meaning canon obusiers similar to blomfield) - we have them in game in form of medium guns
24lb special guns (obusiers meaning howitzers - eg 24lb edinorogs). we have them in game in form of edinorogs.

 But i prefer second and third option as this ship brings an alternative and if it is rare or expensive. I would not lose sleep over it too - just need more sources - before players get used to it. 

And how will we get them they are very rare and very expensive.

[Palatinose]

15 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Any active player wants his fav ship to perform best of all ships. But she is just a 5th rate so still "no real ship" compared to 1st-3rd rates.

 

 

You have only one favourite ship z?

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

And how will we get them they are very rare and very expensive.

new year is soon (time flies fast)

[z4ys]

22 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

You have only one favourite ship z?

yes the prince

rattlesnake and xebec are great too but would chosse the prince over them anytime

Edited August 28, 2018 by z4ys

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, admin said:

We do want ships to be balanced useful AND historical (at least not far from history)
We do not want to put 24 lb guns on it just because we want it to be strong. We want 24 guns because we believe in a certain definition of canon - obusier (24lb obusier) and believe that exactly those guns were on this frigate.

There are just 3 alternatives actually
Diana gundeck has 
24lb carronades (obusiers meaning OBUS - carronades)) - we have them in game
24lb guns (obusiers meaning canon obusiers similar to blomfield) - we have them in game in form of medium guns
24lb special guns (obusiers meaning howitzers - eg 24lb edinorogs). we have them in game in form of edinorogs.

 But i prefer second and third option as this ship brings an alternative to heavy frigates even if it is rare or expensive. I would not lose sleep over it too though - just need more real sources disproving our theory - so we can change the ship before players get used to it.

I think its a translation issue

Lets just not get lost in translation for too long. 

im still wondering if you will increase crew damage from grape towards weatherdeck as that is the only way to counter the requin in an other 6th rate other than requin itself

[Sella]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

We do want ships to be balanced useful AND historical (at least not far from history)
We do not want to put 24 lb guns on it just because we want it to be strong. We want 24 guns because we believe in a certain definition of canon - obusier (24lb obusier) and believe that exactly those guns were on this frigate.

There are just 3 alternatives actually
Diana gundeck has 
24lb carronades (obusiers meaning OBUS - carronades)) - we have them in game
24lb guns (obusiers meaning canon obusiers similar to blomfield) - we have them in game in form of medium guns
24lb special guns (obusiers meaning howitzers - eg 24lb edinorogs). we have them in game in form of edinorogs.

 But i prefer second and third option as this ship brings an alternative to heavy frigates even if it is rare or expensive. I would not lose sleep over it too though - just need more real sources disproving our theory - so we can change the ship before players get used to it.

I think its a translation issue

Lets just not get lost in translation for too long. 

I'm glad that we got that cleared now. I understand. 

I believe that more unique types of cannons should be implemented. Like the obusier in this case or the Venetian shell cannons in case a Venetian vessel gets in. It definitely will add more flavour and tactical depth if implemented right.

[Grundal]

Good work devs, researchers and artists!

i haven't played in a bit but the itch is coming back.

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, admin said:

References point to a historical mix of 6 24lb guns (obusiers) and 26 12lb guns on the gundeck 
three decks for example lists main gundeck first

Also diana is not small - its only 20cm narrower than Endymion and has same width as Leda/Hebe class.
 

Have we thought of doing some mixed decks testing like we have on the prince.  While it's  listed in ports as haveing two decks all the cannons are on one deck at sea.  It would be interesting to see a few more ships like this.  I'll use the Pavel as an example of this.  3 deck says it had 18's in place of the 6 pds we have on it right now on the top deck.  We could fix some balance issues by putting them on the top deck.  Would it be good, maybe and take a lot more crew, but it had them at one time (1794 set up) it also had the "POODS" 6-4 of them on the bottom two decks.  We could actualy get an in game version of them that only goes on the Pavel (just like the 36 lbrs that no one ever uses on the L'OCean which should be the only guns allowed on it's bottom deck).  Maybe have the Diana with 6 slots that you can put either the 24 lbrs in or 12's and the rest of the deck 12 lbrs or all 12's.  Would be interesting to see more of this so that the Prince isn't the only ship with mixed decks.

2 hours ago, admin said:

My Shakespeare book is dated 1985 for some reason. Maybe its not Shakespeare? 

Congrieve was trialed in 1815 and Blomfield in 1813
And they look very very similar to those prints. 

Of course one would also mention that no shot was ever fired in combat from both those short patterned guns. But they were ordered by the navy and first ship that used short pattern 24lb was Eurotas. But they never fired (and fared poorly in testing - they were light and jumped a lot during recoil).  Maybe the designs was stolen by the french, or borrowed. + I am not good in french - maybe it says printed in 1840. 

Anyways - as people say - there is a tweet for everything. Thus we will pick the gun we feel most appropriate after the first tests of the ship.
 

I would love to see more cannons added to the game, even if they have restriction to which ships they can be used on poods only on Russian ships for example.  Hell even if they have exact same stats as the common cannons we can craft, but it's just something about having brass cannons or poods or something on you ship that other ships might not have.  Though I would keep them restricted by Nation ship or something else so they don't become a problem like the poods did when they first came out.  Poods can be brought back as  craftable but restrictd to only Russian ships (Pavel) and keep gift/NYE items with a none restricted tag on them.

Could be a good way to make a mission reward with items like this.  Sink so many Pavels and you get the designs to make Poods (restricted ones that can only be used on that ship.)

1 hour ago, admin said:

new year is soon (time flies fast)

While I love end of year gifts but please don't restrict that as the only time we might get something like special cannons or paints..........SPEAKING OF PAINTS WHY ARE THEY NOT IN GAME?   @admin I know ya'll wanted to change them a bit to make them more like ship knowledge but that will take a ship wipe to put in place.  Can we get paints returned to the loot tables cause we have so many beautiful ships out there that are just so bland and boring and use to have so many great paints.  Can we get PAINTS BACK PLEASE. It's not like you can't just wipe them again later.   

 

Oh and fort testing can we make this first batch of "Diana's" notes tradeable if you plan to make it not in the future. I have 5 chars and I'm not planing to play certian ships (like the xebec when it came out) but I will prob redeem them any way if that is how we will get these, but I would prefer to be able to hand my crafters and the dedicated hauler the extra ships to some one that will be fighting and testing the ship than just let it sit and collect dust in the docks.   YOu can lock them after the first week or something but let us with alts and those that just can't stand smaller ship trade them to folks that would use them and will prob sink them be able to do so.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Sir Texas Sir

[Sella]

Source: British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814
by Mark Lardas

 

@admin

[Archaos]

49 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

Source: British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814
by Mark Lardas

 

@admin

He already said that "Canon Obusier is NOT Obusier de vaisseau."

[Bluetooth]

WOW!!

WELL DONE DEV'S GREAT NEWS ON THE BR BALANCE and  SPEED FIXES and NEW SHIP.

@admin good work and thanks for trying to improve the game. 👏

To the  Obusier crowd.........SHOVE YOUR OBUSIER'S IN YOUR PORTHOLES  and test the bloody game.

 

[Magallanes]

11 hours ago, Anolytic said:

 

HMS Diana wil be given out for testing to all captains in the Caribbean. 

"HMS"...

[Fluffy Fishy]

There is a lot to clear up here over the last few pages, first off obusier isn't a particularly special word it literally just translates to being the French word for howitzer, the original gun style originating in Hungary or the eastern Holy Roman Empire sometime around the mid 16th century, where it goes from Houfnice to Haubitze, which strings into the English Howitzer and the Italian Obizzo or Obice, which then reached France where it became Obusier and Obus, which are essentially just the singular and plural words for the gun. The actual origins of the obusier come from the thought path of using mortar technology to fire projectiles on a flat plain or shallow arc much as they still are today, albeit much more refined with the modern variant being quite different to the historic gun type.

None of the pictures from sources are wrong, although I would lean to what @Malachi has stated that both gun diagrams are dated at 1840, which looks around the time at least my understanding of that design would lead them to be roughly from after having read a few papers on the subject. There are several points that should probably be taken into consideration with regards to gun making of the period, Britain had long since emerged into their golden age of artillery following the English civil war, something which put them to the forefront of technology iron ordinance making, which became a solid lead they would keep, decades ahead of the French, The bloomfield and carronade show this advantage during the later half of the 18th century, something as far as I understand were patterns the French were unable to copy until either after the game window ends or at least the very end of the game timeline, which was the reason the type of gun I posted pictures of was developed in 1787.

Something else worth pointing out is that the Carronade itself is a Howitzer/Obusier style gun, which you can see in the pictures showing its powder chamber, as are the French Paixhans, Russian Edinorog, the Venetian tirar bombe, and the Turkish Kantar guns alongside the Obus/Obusiers. Its basically just an encompassing word just like cannon, which similarly contains subgroups such as Falconet and Culverin.

Looking more closely at the bronze Obus/Obusier itself its by no means a terrible gun, its just not on par with the carronade but it is something close enough to at least level the playing field, when comparing the two the French Obusier is far from a bad gun, otherwise the French would not have been so keen to push the Spanish to use it, nor would the Spanish be so keen to take on the French guns, despite the logistical issues presented by having to deal with not only outfitting two fleets but also the two nations dramatically different ball weight, with Spanish using the 0.459kg pound to the French 0.489 pound.

Looking more closely at the cannon itself, I would strongly advise that the Obusier used on the main deck of Diana being far more than likely the heavy carronade style, it doesn't really make a huge amount of sense for it to be anything else. As I pointed out earlier, the weapons were used on the standard French warships at least as late as 1814, so it would be somewhat bizarre should the French not to be equipping their main warships with their best equipment available first when compared to a medium sized Spanish frigate.

I should really get myself a copy of Budroit's book on Artillery though, perhaps it would shed some more light on the subject.

 

Venetian Tirar Bombe

Turkish Kantar gun

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[z4ys]

47 minutes ago, Archaos said:

He already said that "Canon Obusier is NOT Obusier de vaisseau."

Ofc admin said that but in his source there is only mentioned that the Diana had "Obusier" but what is not said if its "Canon" or "de vaisseau". The source sella posted shows when they talk about "Obusier" the Marine nationale were talking about Obusier de vaisseau. Even the amount that were fitted fits to admins source.