Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[admin]

19 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

even if they are edinorogs in the end witch i doubt. Diana should only mount them or 12pd cannons

 

 

Important point
This is a game first 
Realism vs gameplay balance is a made up dilemma, it does not exist in reality. full realism is amazing in single player and coop games (and we plan to do one fully realistic single player game after NA)

PVP Games must be balanced and fun first. The concept of NO USELESS SHIPS is going to be applied going forward.
If it will require some temporary bending of historical gun composition until new ship models appear in game - we will pick temporary balance over realism. 
Having said that - balance can also include good gun compositions.

 

[Lovec1990]

Just now, Sella22 said:

Let's upgun the Surprise, Prince etc with that logic. 

Just make the 24pdrs an extra gundeck like in the Prince instead of changing the whole deck.

calm down thats why we will have her(Diane) as test ship for 15days plus admin said he will look at it again

[HachiRoku]

Just now, admin said:

we plan to do one fully realistic single player game after NA

What is game labs stance on modding your single player games? 

[Lovec1990]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Important point
This is a game first 
Realism vs gameplay balance is a made up dilemma. full realism is amazing in single player and coop games (and we plan to do one fully realistic single player game after NA)

PVP Games must be balanced and fun first. The concept of NO USELESS SHIP is going to be applied going forward.
If it will require some temporary bending of historical gun composition until new ship models appear in game - we will pick balance over realism. 

 

Admin you did not yet amswer will Diana after test period be Craftable or imported ship?

 

Im not sure many people will be happy tahr you turned 12pd frigate into 24pd frigate

[admin]

8 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

Let's upgun the Surprise, Prince etc with that logic. 

Just make the 24pdrs an extra gundeck like in the Prince instead of changing the whole deck.

You reaction to a new (and maybe temporarily overgunned) ship looks too negative to me. As if it is the first time you saw a temporarily overgunned ship in this game. 
Perhaps if players reacted with more excitement to new vessels - artists would work faster hearing the loud applause.

[admin]

Just now, Lovec1990 said:

Admin you did not yet amswer will Diana after test period be Craftable or imported ship?

 

Im not sure many people will be happy tahr you turned 12pd frigate into 24pd frigate

diana wont be an imported ship

[Sella]

2 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

calm down thats why we will have her(Diane) as test ship for 15days plus admin said he will look at it again

I ain't angry or startled or whatever. Just providing some alternatives. 

Please avoid making up conclusions about how I feel. Thanks

[Sella]

1 minute ago, admin said:

You reaction to a new (and maybe temporarily overgunned) ship looks too negative to me. As if it is the first time you saw an overgunned ship in this game. 

It's not something that I can't live with. I'm just trying to find an alternative that will be aligned to what she actually could carry. Same goes for all the ships. The situation of overgunning is not ideal for me but I won't lose any sleep about it as well. It wasn't my intention to sound like that. That's the problem with written speech I guess. In the end you make the call.

[Angus MacDuff]

Diana was 12lbr Frigate and when the Brits captured the class leader they left it a 12lbr Frigate.  So what if the Devs let us overgun it?  It will be a fun test and im sure there will be no lack of feedback.  I think it will be hard to load the big guns with a 5th rate crew though.

[Galt]

5 hours ago, admin said:

• Major BR rebalance
  • We are gradually moving away from the static BR based on HP and DPS characteristics and will also consider several other factors including battle performance data. 
  • How it will work
    • Ships with much lower performance statistics will have lower BR even if they are a higher class vessel. For example 2nd rate pavel having a much worse battle performance than 3rd rate Bellona will have a lower BR than Bellona. 
  • The changes will be applied gradually as full performance based BR is currently impossible as it will break old mission system. Once new mission system is added in September we will let battle performance influence the ship BR slightly more.
  • This will mostly affect the port battles and will require captains to recalculate their battle plans for future conquests.

While I am a huge fan of this system, I also think that this will be a continuous thing from now on (and I'm fine with that.) Game metas are always evolving so it think it's fair to say that BRs should also be continuously evolving. I don't believe there will ever be a time when we are all settled on the proper BR for a ship because the trade offs coupled with the sheer number of ships means that there is almost always a better option to use instead. 

If you can just remain conscious of how all the ships are being used then I think you can implement an automatic ranking system that effects the BR values of the ships regularly. 

[Fluffy Fishy]

This is a 36lb Obusier, the Spanish armed their ships with French made guns to help them level the unmatched playing field between the British Carronade and standard French/Spanish guns, because of this all Spanish naval obusiers are manufactured with French weightings and they come in 48, 36, 30, 24, 18, 12 variants. They are by no means standard 24lb guns, they are basically just poorly made carronades without the windage or casting technology behind the standard British carronade. This is why they are dropped very quickly as naval armaments once French and Spanish gunmaking technology allowed them to produce weapons of similar level as the carronade.

They look like this: (This is the 36lb variant recovered from the wreckage of Golymin)

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[NethrosDefectus]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

You reaction to a new (and maybe temporarily overgunned) ship looks too negative to me. As if it is the first time you saw an overgunned ship in this game. 

I would point out that there is a track record of adding new ships that make sailing anything else in that class pointless. I happened with the Agga I believe, The Wasa for a long time made all 3rd and 4th rates obsolete. Currently there is no point sailing any 5th rate that isn't a Herc other than out of principle. And we don't even need to mention what the Requin has done to the game.

Bearing that in mind, you must understand why people are not keen to make a ship overpowered for the sake of it.

[Angus MacDuff]

@admin There was a valid question earlier and I don't recall seeing an answer.  Will this redeemable ship be a one off?  Some will lose it very quickly.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Let's test the up-gunned version. I am glad to have a new ship to test in earnest. Not only to throw into ganks, but to conduct appropriate testing.

She might prove, after intense testing, to be a bit off. Same as happened to other ships since Sea Trials.

First iteration of the ship, let's get her underway.

@admin question, will her speed and heeling be considered in the increased weight gun deck or is her basic speed already base considering the full 24 pounder setup ?

[NethrosDefectus]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Let's test the up-gunned version. I am glad to have a new ship to test in earnest. Not only to throw into ganks, but to conduct appropriate testing.

She might prove, after intense testing, to be a bit off. Same as happened to other ships since Sea Trials.

First iteration of the ship, let's get her underway.

"Intense" testing is not possible if the ship is a one off redeemable that will be lost to the first joint Pirate/Prussian gank squad that just happens to be "roving" around

It needs to be replaceable during testing

Edited August 28, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, NethrosDefectus said:

"Intense" testing is not possible if the ship is a one off redeemable that will be lost to the first joint Pirate/Prussian gank squad that just happens to be "roving" around

 

Hopefully they will gank you with Dianas.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

2 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

"Intense" testing is not possible if the ship is a one off redeemable that will be lost to the first joint Pirate/Prussian gank squad that just happens to be "roving" around

 

Go to PvE server, enter a OW battle with a buddy, both state in chat you allow green on green. Test.

Or in PvP server, ask a guy from another nation to meet you somewhere remote, fight and test.

You are a smart fellow. You will manage to survive.

[NethrosDefectus]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

 

You are a smart fellow. You will manage to survive.

Smart enough to realise ONE ship is not enough for sufficient testing.

Edited August 28, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, NethrosDefectus said:

Even so, ONE ship is not enough for sufficient testing.

We will not agree on that one. Not a single bit.

[Cecil Selous]

17 minutes ago, admin said:

Perhaps if players reacted with more excitement to new vessels - artists would work faster hearing the loud applause.

Then tell them/him/her, that the wood texture is awesome. Though I can't tell out of my head if it is the case for every ship since I only play with low graphic settings but it was the first thing that caught my eye. 👍

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, admin said:

+ definition and size of Obusier could be argued as well. If more data is uncovered we can review this again.

The book "British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814 (Duel)" makes mention of:

"THE OBUSIER DE VAISSEAU. The initial French response to the carronade was the obusier de vaisseau. Bronze, rather than iron, the gun was adopted in 1787, and came in two sizes – one fired a 24lb ball and the other fired a 36lb ball. They were intended to fire an explosive shell, but the shells proved more dangerous to their users than their targets, and most captains used only solid shot with their guns. While sometimes called naval howitzers or sea mortars due to their short size, they were intended for direct fire, on a flat trajectory. The obusier de vaisseau was phased out after 1803, replaced with an iron 36-pdr gun similar to the British 42-pdr carronade. While they were in service, most French frigates carried four obusiers de vaisseaux, two on the forecastle and two on the quarterdeck."

From the looks of it, it was more like a carronade.

[Percival Merewether]

Just now, Archaos said:

The book "British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814 (Duel)" makes mention of:

"THE OBUSIER DE VAISSEAU. The initial French response to the carronade was the obusier de vaisseau. Bronze, rather than iron, the gun was adopted in 1787, and came in two sizes – one fired a 24lb ball and the other fired a 36lb ball. They were intended to fire an explosive shell, but the shells proved more dangerous to their users than their targets, and most captains used only solid shot with their guns. While sometimes called naval howitzers or sea mortars due to their short size, they were intended for direct fire, on a flat trajectory. The obusier de vaisseau was phased out after 1803, replaced with an iron 36-pdr gun similar to the British 42-pdr carronade. While they were in service, most French frigates carried four obusiers de vaisseaux, two on the forecastle and two on the quarterdeck."

From the looks of it, it was more like a carronade.

Going by that description I would say they are most certainly equivalent to a 24lb long cannon 😉

I've been looking at all the available sources I have comparing Diana to similar ships, but without a copy of "Modelos de arsenal del museo naval" I won't be able to confirm the following however: I'm am 99% certain that the Fragata Diana never carried anything other than 12lb cannons on her gundeck.

So @admin, I am still curious to know what source you have for the Diana stating that she has ever carried anything other than 12lb cannons on her main gundeck?

Going by the following statement:

1 hour ago, admin said:

The main determinant is if the gun fits the port and the deck and if at least 1 gun had been installed on the deck historically.

I would say it is much more accuate to allow 24lb carronades on the topdeck, and perhaps 18lb longs on the gundeck if you insist on overgunning it... but giving her 24lbs is the same as giving the Indefatigable 32/42lbs.

[Fluffy Fishy]

13 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The book "British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814 (Duel)" makes mention of:

"THE OBUSIER DE VAISSEAU. The initial French response to the carronade was the obusier de vaisseau. Bronze, rather than iron, the gun was adopted in 1787, and came in two sizes – one fired a 24lb ball and the other fired a 36lb ball. They were intended to fire an explosive shell, but the shells proved more dangerous to their users than their targets, and most captains used only solid shot with their guns. While sometimes called naval howitzers or sea mortars due to their short size, they were intended for direct fire, on a flat trajectory. The obusier de vaisseau was phased out after 1803, replaced with an iron 36-pdr gun similar to the British 42-pdr carronade. While they were in service, most French frigates carried four obusiers de vaisseaux, two on the forecastle and two on the quarterdeck."

From the looks of it, it was more like a carronade.

Considering the best example, which is now housed at the Paris Maritime Museum, was found on a Téméraire class ship called Golymin which wasn't launched until 1809 and was sunk in 1814 the phase out program was rather slow, with them being used at least up to the end of the Napoleonic wars, I've pointed them out before when doing a little bit of work on possible cannon additions to the game. I made a reply at the end of page 5 showing the example they also come in more sizes than 24 and 36. They are distinctly different from Edinorogs too, which are much longer heavier guns, although I am unsure if they use the same conical chamber as an Edinorog, my assumption is they don't and maintain a more typical cylindrical chamber with a relatively low powder charge.

For those who may have missed it:

 

28 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

This is a 36lb Obusier, the Spanish armed their ships with French made guns to help them level the unmatched playing field between the British Carronade and standard French/Spanish guns, because of this all Spanish naval obusiers are manufactured with French weightings and they come in 48, 36, 30, 24, 18, 12 variants. They are by no means standard 24lb guns, they are basically just poorly made carronades without the windage or casting technology behind the standard British carronade. This is why they are dropped very quickly as naval armaments once French and Spanish gunmaking technology allowed them to produce weapons of similar level as the carronade.

They look like this: (This is the 36lb variant recovered from the wreckage of Golymin)

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[Archaos]

18 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

Going by that description I would say they are most certainly equivalent to a 24lb long cannon 😉

I think they would be more equivalent to a 24lb carronade rather than a long cannon.

[Percival Merewether]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

I think they would be more equivalent to a 24lb carronade rather than a long cannon.

I was merely joking, the rest is in my post above