Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[Angus MacDuff]

52 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

3.5 kts has been always way too slow... granted the ludicrous speed and manouvrability of our ships.

Probably 8 kts was a bit too high. But with 3.5 with end up again with the same push to the wind as only way to stop a ship. Realism?
On the other hand not so high. Real SoL fought often around 4 kts... and boarded eachother in a dim.
Our heavy 1st rate combat speed is... 8 kts.

And then discussing again collision damages. I am quite good at manouvering, so I do not fear heavy collision damages. Even "friendly fire": awareness and reaction should matter.

BUT one of the two: or I can board side to side even on speed just hugging the enemy ship, and a bad manouver could be dangerous for my hull... OR I have to be able to push and stop him. Otherwise, easier cancelling boarding altogether.

Ahhh, right. You can board after demasting the enemy... what's the point boarding an already demasted enemy? Make him auto-surrender.

The funny part is the call for realism (or physics).
The AC-RA = Alternate Current - Realism Argument.

Realism should mean
That running full sails in battle to be suicide.
That tacking into the wind will require a minimum 5 minutes even on a nimble frigate.
That maximum speed of any ship (yes, schooner too) to be approx at broad reach.
That closing wind to 80° would stop (no, not slow down - STOP) any square rigged ship.
That even thinking to "aim" to masts, from a rolling deck of a full speed ship against another one, should be plain stupid.

Etc... Etc... Etc...  

Forgot: that if you have been dismantled in combat.... you cannot repair to full = no repairs in combat.
That rum, even if very good, dont revive the deads.
Nor you can refit a smashed ship out of combat in OW either.
Nor you can teleport new crew from Enterprise.

I'm on for this kind of full realism.
And you? (in general the veteran player base = the usual whiners)

I've always been for no repairs in battle (just plugging leaks, putting out fires).  I happen to agree with OW repairs and crew replacement for pure gamey convenience.  It's too slow to go back to port after every battle.

[Rabman]

So what was in today's patch? Is boarding back down to 3.5 knots?

[Dibbler (Retired)]

3 minutes ago, Rabman said:

So what was in today's patch? Is boarding back down to 3.5 knots?

 

Aye 3.5 knt boarding, all other changes same as far as i know.

[Armored_Sheep]

The relative speed 5 kts difference = 2.5 meters per second. That does not look authentic "match speed for boarding" to me. I don´t care how fast do ship sail for boarding as soon as they can match speeds for certain time. Isnt that definition of hugging?

[Licinio Chiavari]

7 minutes ago, Armored_Sheep said:

The relative speed 5 kts difference = 2.5 meters per second. That does not look authentic "match speed for boarding" to me. I don´t care how fast do ship sail for boarding as soon as they can match speeds for certain time. Isnt that definition of hugging?

Indeed far better leaving the max speed at 8-ish kts (if not even more) and changing the differential to something really close, like only 1 o 2 kts (and may be a shorter range for starting the pull).
That's would make proper sail handling matters a lot.

But whiners won... a stupid battle; IMO even against their own interests: they prefer to lose 1st rates to hercules than risking frigates to Requins 🤣

[Sir Loorkon]

7 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

But whiners won... a stupid battle; IMO even against their own interests: they prefer to lose 1st rates to hercules than risking frigates to Requins 🤣

Who whines? Look at your posts.

[Licinio Chiavari]

9 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Who whines? Look at your posts.

Read them. All. And yes, also the lasts.
I'm not whining  no reason to.
Nothing, almost, change to me: for long time I sailed no requin with more than 300 crew; only in last weeks having a v.cramped pushed her higher, but never liked the set up (hammock book hurts morale): I used it to overcome DD; problem solved.

I'll sail now one sitting on 250.

I pointed out that a nerf is a nerf not, as Admin stated "nothing changed for LRQ". Aside that, no whining.

I do well remember the outcry and the desperation thinking being boarded at 8 kts     

You missed some posts, may be... or are you a case of selective reading?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Gentlemen, let's stop with requien/youthisyouthat back and forth, c'mon, there's literally dozen of other ships in the game and game simulations affect all.

[Teutonic]

I thank the devs for reverting the speed change. 

I still think we should look at it but it really does seem the only way is to add musket fire in the game - we'll see.

I actually enjoy the other changes. I honestly feel that cramped and very cramped should still be 5% and 10% respectively since it is a chance based trim. The barricades change is good - those who don't like boarding should probably get it, those who also want a different kind of boarding instead of attacking should also consider it.

I eagerly await the mod/book balance pass though, and the UI and flag teaser is nice and next patch is looking good.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Teutonic

[Rook]

6 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

I would say increase grappling time, instant grapple and pull is so silly.

This is a very elegant, and simple, solution. As well, currently mass and momentum seem to be misrepresented in grappling. Not to mention the strange spinning of ships being grappled.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Rook

[LeBoiteux]

16 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Gentlemen, let's stop with requien

Requiem, requin or Requin ? 🙂

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Correct chevalier Le Requin... brain hurts with so much of it back and forth.

Anyone knows what was the usual "warning shot" distance ? 

 

[Palatinose]

6 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Players die to boarding so often because it's too complicated and too complex.

Players die to boarding because they refuse to learn the mechanics. If anything is simple in NA, it's trading, boarding and demasting HMS Surprise. The issue with boarding might be, that it's so fast and abrupt compared to the rest of NA's combat mechanics. To your proposals concerning AI boardng nerf and prolonged grapple time I agree.

A question to those, who sail boarding fitted or specialized boarding vessels: do you honestly consider boarding fun or do you actually mostly like the possibility of quickly knocking out an enemy? If I imagined a boarding fight for ten minutes - that's not what NA is about for me, and it's for sure not fun imo. It's rock-scissors-paper game with a tiny degree of customization. If boarding was entirely reworked, it should have more of a place ingame. Atm it's a grotesquely boring feature imo. 

3.5kn and DD at 0.001% is GOOD. Realistic or not, 8kn was game breaking for stated reasons, thx for removing it.

[Jack Jones]

Let's look forward yo the port UI and changes it brings.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Flash Jack

[Palatinose]

42 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Well, did you learn by heart all preparation needed for all comments in all time frames? e.g. musket on start, after 5 seconds, after 10 seconds etc... It is very complex and complicated. Las seconds comment is a poker game and lottery and ping related case. How in boarding one would change mind in last second? Commands chosen should be hidden and revealed once both sides choose something. No option to change them, simple. 

Correct. But basics in boarding is what 80% of players lack. I know only basics but defensive boarding is really easy. How often get experienced players just quickly killed by rageboarding? 

How often did you hear on comms: OMG I'M PULLED with this tune of desperation. Basically it's the sound of surrender. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Palatinose

[Gott365]

Thing is, as Banished mentioned, last (split) second changing options is way too unrealistic.

Maybe changing options in the last 3 seconds should be impossible, so that one can prepare for the next round. Or maybe the last second change should be punished even heavier, speaking of 90 prep for an attack in the last second, whereas defend should stay at the 20 it is atm.

For realism/immersion, as defender you can see the attackers coming, and prepare for another 1 or 2 seconds. Same goes for Musket salvo etc.: All the offensive ranged attacks can be set to around 60-70 prep, whereas Brace mainly is ducking when you see the enemie´s musket barrels, so staying at about 10 prep.

 

Or you overthrow this alltogether and make it a RTS minigame

[Angus MacDuff]

3 hours ago, Gott365 said:

 because a speed difference of 4kn or higher in real life would have just caused the ropes to snap, or the brackets to break when the ships moved on (bc they would not take down sails in an instant). But when your relative speed is quite close, boarding may actually be possible.

To be clear, a speed difference of zero (both ships on same course/same speed) would snap ropes if they are moving at any speed, because they are never in the same plane at sea.  With both ships moving at 4 knots (and each of them weighing 500 tons), they would roll and pitch differently and cause violent rope snapping if they were tied together.  Lets stay away from "in real life" on this thread.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

Players that I help in boarding also survive. You need 3 basic steps to win defensive boarding, no need for 5000 hours experience. There is no knee-jerk reactions or showing off. No git gud, just simple instruction. 

Are your instructions written down or posted anywhere?  Would you consider writing them up and posting them as a tutorial, that would be very beneficial for both new and old players alike. 

[Gott365]

21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

To be clear, a speed difference of zero (both ships on same course/same speed) would snap ropes if they are moving at any speed, because they are never in the same plane at sea.  With both ships moving at 4 knots (and each of them weighing 500 tons), they would roll and pitch differently and cause violent rope snapping if they were tied together.  Lets stay away from "in real life" on this thread.

Depends on how much slack the ropes have, but you´re right nonetheless. It´s a game after all

[William Death]

I saw this quote in an earlier reply. It looks like @Flash Jack's post was deleted (I think I can understand why it was deleted, but quotes don't disappear when the original post is deleted...[which is interesting] but he does bring up a valid point, I think):

/quote

Haha!

Death who are you kiddng??

You sail with Cart/AOS/as a minimum!

You have no right to talk how you find a ship for hunting. You and others have too many top mods to even comment and this is why the game is in this mess for normal non super modded players.

Although I diagree with Crow, he was telling the Devs not to get directed by the forum elite all the time. 

The game needs balance for normal players.

end quote\

I assume he was referring to my post (because he said "Death" as if he was addressing me) about Requin being very easy to hunt with. Though his post was deleted, I feel it deserves a response. Especially in the context that pertains to this patch. So here's a wall of text:

Basically, what I was pointing out in my post: Requin (and most other 6-7th rate ships, but especially Requin) are very, very easy to hunt with. You can tag risk-free in the reinforcement zones, because the worst you'll get is a (buffed) AI Brig or Snow. Yeah, I'm soooooo scared . Sink the player and go. Not so easy to do in frigates and larger. Perhaps this is a good thing, since it encourages players to try smaller ships. Furthermore, upwind ships like Privateer, Lynx, and Requin are pretty risk free if the revenge fleet shows up, or the battle goes badly for you, you can escape upwind 90% of the time if your enemy hasn't prepared for this (and they normally don't).

Also, most players don't know how to counter the tactics these little ships use (like hull-hugging and chain boarding). Earlier this week, a smallish (3-6) group of us sailed around in 6th and 7th rates tagging ships in the US reinforcement zone. We boarded/sank: Agamemnon, Ingermanland, LGV, Rattlesnake, and ran from anything that challenged us. Had the players simply *not* done everything wrong, they would have countered us. None of us could easily keep up with them if they ran downwind. And several of us would have been dismasted and left if our rigging had been focused. But instead the players tried to shoot the hull of agile ships that can simply turn and avoid cannonballs. No fancy mods involved here, or broken mechanics. Just mechanics that weren't countered. (side note: I support the idea of properly implemented musket fire that will damage crew of ships within a short range)

I also mentioned: that the temporary boarding arrangement helped players in larger ships combat this somewhat, because they could eliminate side-hugging with intention to sink. But it had the unfortunate consequence of basically making all NA battles be a contest of "lemme board" or "no! don't get boarded. So...side-hugging with intention to slow down to 8kn and board. Thats not the type of NA most of us want to play. 

 

Beyond that, I think it is rude to say I have no right to speak my opinion. I believe all players have a right to their own opinion, no matter what it is. Amount of mods I have or don't have is irrelevant to that right. But it may influence how I feel about certain aspects. Having played NA when we had a few mods of each type, and playing it now with many of each type, I can say I completely prefer the first option (2016 NA with few mods, most craftable). I like my gold super modded fancy ships, but its a shame my favorite old blue ones from back when are almost useless (I sailed a 3/5 Teak/WO Endymion for 8+ months with copper, bovenwinds, and gazelle (when gazelle was good); now that same 3/5 Endy is almost useless when compared to 4/5s and better, but I can't bring myself to get rid of it). I don't like that. I deal with that. There is a difference

 

And don't go about casting suspicions about the way I outfit my ships. Unless you sit in TS with me, you've no idea how I setup a particular ship on a given day. I don't always sail with cartagena, because many times I prefer an extra speed mod there. I don't always run full speed stack, because I sometimes want repair or boarding mods. I do, however, always sail with Art of Shiphandling , but I bet almost all other players who have that book use it too.  But I'm not sure why any of this should affect what I can and can't say about how to outfit a ship?

You want a cheap build for PvP? I'll give you 3. 1 will be about as close to uncatchable as you can get it, one will be a decent all-round speedy frigate, and one will be a very nice brawling frigate. All should be within the reach of any Rear Admiral.

• The (almost) uncatchable ship:  200-500k plus a few combat marks and PvP marks (assumes DLC). Without DLC, tack on 200-500k more for a Prince.
  • Requin: Fir/Fir   (free if you have redeemable [Prince can be substituted])  + Navy Hull Refit (10 PvP Marks)  + Pirate Rig Refit (2-500k at major freeports) + light carriages (25? combat marks).
• The speedy frigate:  800k-1.2M plus combat marks and 10 PvP marks. (cheaper if you produce the ship or are in a clan crafting line)
  • Trincomalee/Endymion: Fir/Fir (400-600k at ports where players produce ships, or check capitals and freetowns) + Navy Hull Refit (10 PvP Marks) + Bovenwinds Refit (400-600k at most major freeports) + light carriages (50? combat marks).
•  The brawling frigate: 900k-1.8M plus combat marks and 10 PvP marks. (again, cheaper if you produce the ships or are in a crafting line for that purpose)
  • Trincomalee/Endymion: Teak/Teak or Teak/WO (500-800k at major freeports and capitals)  + Navy Hull Refit (10 PvP Marks) + French Rig Refit (100-400k at major freeports) + Northern Carpenters (300-600k at major freeports) + Light Carriage (50? combat marks)

Assuming the Rear Admiral has the common RNG books (like steel toolbox, barricades, etc.) and a few marks (a Rear Admiral should have a reasonable stash of PvP and Combat Marks [if he is short of either, he can go to the PvP zone and grind AI or players to get both]), these ships are well within reach. When sailed well, the Requin can beat or escape any 6th rate she comes across, and stands a chance of beating some fifth rates too. The fir frigate should teach the aspiring PvPer all about managing your damage, protecting weak sides, and disengaging from a battle if you can't win. He may sink it once in a while, but it only takes 1-2 fights to get enough PvP marks and gold to cover everything lost on the ship. The heavier teak/teak or teak/wo build can brawl quite well against other frigates, but should be sailed cautiously because she will be run down by faster frigates and the occasional speedy lineship.

 

So, I *do* sometimes sail in 4/5s, purple, or gold ships, with top of the line mods that cost several million gold per mod, but I haven't lost sight of the casual players. I was there, I remember what it was like when I got my first decent ships and mods. The pain of losing them. The joy of sailing them and winning. The amazing feeling when I could finally reliably beat other players in even PvP battles and not just in ganks. The first few times I won vs a larger or more numerous enemy (players)... Oh I remember. The golden days of my evolution from basic noob to advanced noob (but you called me "forum elite" so maybe I can finally be elite? nah...I'm still too much of a noob ).

While I don't like the current system which is so mod-dependent (my gold 5/5 Trinco will go as fast with the mods I have on it as that fir/fir Trinco with the mods listed, it'll out-tank, out-turn, and out-repair it too), it is what it is and we must work with it as best we can till the mods are re-balanced. What I gave above were a few examples of cheap ships that aren't total garbage. With the first two, you can out-fight or disengage from most enemies you run across. With the last build, you might challenge my beloved 5/5 Trinc, and I might be forced to disengage (probably not, but maybe).

 

In the future, I'd appreciate it if you *didn't* tell me what I do and do not have a right to post, as well as extrapolating ideas about my opinions of mod systems (which I have stated quite clearly before [fewer mods = best mods]). Thanks.

-The Dread Pirate William  Death   Fear me! AAARRRGGGHHH

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Palatinose said:

Players die to boarding because they refuse to learn the mechanics. If anything is simple in NA, it's trading, boarding and demasting HMS Surprise. The issue with boarding might be, that it's so fast and abrupt compared to the rest of NA's combat mechanics.

Isnt considered fair that someone not protecting his masts, lose them... and got killed?

1 hour ago, Palatinose said:

A question to those, who sail boarding fitted or specialized boarding vessels: do you honestly consider boarding fun or do you actually mostly like the possibility of quickly knocking out an enemy? If I imagined a boarding fight for ten minutes - that's not what NA is about for me, and it's for sure not fun imo.

Isnt the basic of warfare "quickly knocking out an enemy"?
This is not a duel game nor an arena game.
Nor Naval Warfare was (nor is) duelist stuff: it's warfare. Using any possible advantage to kill the enemy in the fastest way (and so less expensive).

I have problem imaging any anti-boarding veteran... leading a PB and say "no guys we cant use this meta (choose one, plenty), it's too op we could win too easily".

[Barbancourt]

54 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

This is not a duel game nor an arena game.
Nor Naval Warfare was (nor is) duelist stuff: it's warfare. Using any possible advantage to kill the enemy in the fastest way (and so less expensive).

But I think the question was about fun.  If the game isn't fun, for both sides, it will die.  Nobody is forced to play.

[Gott365]

2 hours ago, Barbancourt said:

But I think the question was about fun.  If the game isn't fun, for both sides, it will die.  Nobody is forced to play.

Lets make it fun again. I hereby call upon the new fir/fir-4th-rate-fireship-meta!

 

Oh, and btw: Can we maybe get to give our fleet ships separate commands?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Gott365

[Palatinose]

5 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Isnt considered fair that someone not protecting his masts, lose them... and got killed?

Isnt the basic of warfare "quickly knocking out an enemy"?
This is not a duel game nor an arena game.
Nor Naval Warfare was (nor is) duelist stuff: it's warfare. Using any possible advantage to kill the enemy in the fastest way (and so less expensive).

I have problem imaging any anti-boarding veteran... leading a PB and say "no guys we cant use this meta (choose one, plenty), it's too op we could win too easily".

Imo what you describe here is RvR. RvR is of course also about fun, but it's about teamwork and subordination of the own style to a more group fitting style. Here the people aim for the win. No matter what, the win or losing with keeping low own casualties. A greater good. ("We could win too easily" - watch PB vids and you will see cirlces sometimes being given up on purpose to kill more enemies.)

If you like that for your own style it's fine. If that's fun for you - it's your right. It's a valid tactics, valid style. Personally I just can't understand it though. 

Concerning demasting: there was a short phase when Mast Thickness was a bit higher. Shooting lower sections wasn't a big thing, middle and top sections were relatively easy to get though. I preferred that as it this wasn't so decisive.

[AeRoTR]

11 hours ago, Rook said:

This is a very elegant, and simple, solution. As well, currently mass and momentum seem to be misrepresented in grappling. Not to mention the strange spinning of ships being grappled.

Check my revised grappling and boarding purposal.