Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[Lovec1990]

Im also intrested in other stats i know that in day or two we will know everything but still intresed in max speed, turn rate and armor HP

Edited August 28, 2018 by Lovec1990

[admin]

40 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Considering the best example, which is now housed at the Paris Maritime Museum, was found on a Téméraire class ship called Golymin which wasn't launched until 1809 and was sunk in 1814 the phase out program was rather slow, with them being used at least up to the end of the Napoleonic wars, I've pointed them out before when doing a little bit of work on possible cannon additions to the game. I made a reply at the end of page 5 showing the example they also come in more sizes than 24 and 36. They are distinctly different from Edinorogs too, which are much longer heavier guns, although I am unsure if they use the same conical chamber as an Edinorog, my assumption is they don't and maintain a more typical cylindrical chamber with a relatively low powder charge.

For those who may have missed it:

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We disagree

We trust our sources too and in our opinion Obusiers look like british short 24lbs (short congrieve and even more like short blomfields which were extremely short) 

here is the pattern

 

Source

https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/12--artillerie-de-mer-france-1650-1850.html

Just took these photos from the book above  (sorry for attachments - imgur down)

The fact that Obusier can look like shorter version of normal gun can further be inferred from the 12lb obusiers (napoleons) and other variants introduced much later.

[NethrosDefectus]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

We disagree

We trust our sources too and in our opinion Obusiers look like british short 24lbs (short congrieve and even more like short bloomfields) 

here is the pattern

 

Source

https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/12--artillerie-de-mer-france-1650-1850.html

Just took a photo from this book

The fact that Obusier can look like shorter version of normal gun can further be inferred from the 12lb obusiers (napoleons) and other variants introduced much later.

NEVER, under any circumstances trust the French!

[William Death]

@admin and Gamelabs ship artists: 

Diana looks beautiful. I really like the weathering of the caulking lines between planks, as well as the textures on the planks themselves. Very nice looking.

I'm eager to test it out: whether you put it in as a 24pd frigate or a 12pd frigate, I'm sure there will be a way for it to find balance. Personally, I'm hoping you keep the 24s, but thats just because I'm partial to the bigger frigates and see room for another 24pd frigate to maybe compete with Endymion and Indefatigable in that category.

Two questions about Diana:

• Does she have chasers--bow or stern?
• Is this the proper sailing profile? (It will be VERY interesting to sail if this is the correct profile. Should allow Diana to fill a role both as a solo hunter and as support in a squadron, but perhaps she's a bit too slow at 180°? I suppose the testing phase will answer that though.).

 

Regarding the rest of the post: 

Speed changes seem very reasonable. +1

I'm happy to see you wish to balance the BR so that there are no useless ships. But I urge caution when balancing ships: if you make one ship's BR so low that it becomes the new PB meta (Pavel fleets?), then the BR of other ships can also become skewed when you have to re-adjust the new meta ship. That would be the biggest concern I could see: nerfing one meta, only to inadvertently create a new one. Given time and gradual balancing procedures though, I could see that system working. 

 

Overall, nice looking patch with some good fixes and a shiny new ship to enjoy. I look forward to it! 

 

 

[admin]

We argue that canon - obusier looks and shoots like short pattern Blomfield (shortest before carronade). Short pattern Blomfield cannon is known to have performance similar to the normal guns with first absolutely no difference in distance at 5 degree elevation (drop at 1800m) (source https://www.amazon.com/Frigates-Napoleonic-Wars-Robert-Gardiner/dp/186176135X) 

[Malachi]

Hm, both 'obusier' patterns are dated 1840. Just sayin...

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Malachi

[Percival Merewether]

Just now, Malachi said:

Hm, both 'obusier' patterns are signed 1840. Just sayin...

Thinking the same

That being said though.. I certainly trust admins sources.

[NethrosDefectus]

1 minute ago, Malachi said:

Hm, both 'obusier' patterns are signed 1840. Just sayin...

 

Like I said, never trust the French, they will always let you down

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Hm, both 'obusier' patterns are dated 1840. Just sayin...

 

My Shakespeare book is dated 1985 for some reason. Maybe its not Shakespeare? 

Congrieve was trialed in 1815 and Blomfield in 1813
And they look very very similar to those prints. 

Of course one would also mention that no shot was ever fired in combat from both those short patterned guns. But they were ordered by the navy and first ship that used short pattern 24lb was Eurotas. But they never fired (and fared poorly in testing - they were light and jumped a lot during recoil).  Maybe the designs was stolen by the french, or borrowed. + I am not good in french - maybe it says printed in 1840. 

Anyways - as people say - there is a tweet for everything. Thus we will pick the gun we feel most appropriate after the first tests of the ship.
 

[Malachi]

Oh, the book is amazing, had it for a while but got an offer I couldn't resist 😛

It's just that I've never seen other patterns of obusiers for our timeframe than the ones Fluffy posted. And they certainly don't resemble British short 24s.

 

[NethrosDefectus]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

And? Congrieve was trialed in 1815 and Blomfield in 1813

 

I think it was mentioned because you previously asked for sources before that date

[Archaos]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

We argue that canon - obusier looks and shoots like short pattern Blomfield (shortest before carronade). Short pattern Blomfield cannon is known to have performance similar to the normal guns with first absolutely no difference in distance at 5 degree elevation (drop at 1800m) (source https://www.amazon.com/Frigates-Napoleonic-Wars-Robert-Gardiner/dp/186176135X) 

But this book https://ospreypublishing.com/british-frigate-vs-french-frigate describes the Obusier de vaisseau as the French version of the British carronade.

"Carronades gave the British a significant advantage during the American
Revolutionary Wars, and the French soon added their own version of the carronade
– the obusier de vaisseau. By the start of the French Revolutionary Wars both navies
began replacing upper-deck long guns with carronades – typically larger carronades
that each weighed as much as the long guns they replaced."

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Oh, the book is amazing, had it for a while but got an offer I couldn't resist 😛

It's just that I've never seen other patterns of obusiers for our timeframe than the ones Fluffy posted. And they certainly don't resemble British short 24s.

 

well you seen other patterns now.  So can we close the issue?

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Archaos said:

But this book https://ospreypublishing.com/british-frigate-vs-french-frigate describes the Obusier de vaisseau as the French version of the British carronade.

"Carronades gave the British a significant advantage during the American
Revolutionary Wars, and the French soon added their own version of the carronade
– the obusier de vaisseau. By the start of the French Revolutionary Wars both navies
began replacing upper-deck long guns with carronades – typically larger carronades
that each weighed as much as the long guns they replaced."

Canon Obusier is NOT Obusier de vaisseau. 

[Lovec1990]

@admin can you share with us Dianes speed?

[Percival Merewether]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Canon Obusier is NOT Obusier de vaisseau. 

So Diana carried 6 'Canon Obusier' on her gundeck?

[admin]

8 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

I think it was mentioned because you previously asked for sources before that date

Before the infamous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_obusier_de_12 or Napoleon of 1853
(which also does not look like a carronade or a short howitzer at all). 

[NethrosDefectus]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Before the infamous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_obusier_de_12 or Napoleon of 1853
(which also does not look like a carronade or a short howitzer at all). 

Fair point

[Malachi]

6 minutes ago, admin said:

Canon Obusier is NOT Obusier de vaisseau. 

Absolutely correct. The Canon obusier was developed by Paixhans in the 1820s, which makes it quite difficult for Diana to have carried them before she went out of service.

 

My last post on this subject. I promise

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

So Diana carried 6 'Canon Obusier' on her gundeck?

I was open to discussions when I was in the office (as had monographs at home). But now i checked the monograph  i trust.
From this point I do not see any additional value in going back and forth on the subject. Especially when you ask strange questions instead of providing credible sources, or memories of Diana captains.

There are two definitions of Obusier gun

• Canon Obusier (fr)
• Obusier Vaisseau (fr)

Both are valid - but we doubt short vaisseau were installed on Diana in 1815!! When british were ordering short blomfield's.
We believe that obusiers that were on diana were short patterned gun/howitzers that later iterated into a infamous Napoleons which were used in crimean and american civil war. We value and respect other opinions. But we disagree and pick the option we consider most credible

 

Answering your question. Think about usefullness of a 3-6lb carronade type gun for a 1815 modern frigate

[NethrosDefectus]

1 minute ago, admin said:

I was open to discussions when I was in the office (as had monographs at home). But now i checked the monograph  i trust.
From this point I do not see any additional value in going back and forth on the subject. Especially when you ask questions instead of providing credible sources, or memories of Diana captains. 

I believe he is asking if you can provide the source that states the guns were carried on the ship at any point. As opposed to what the guns do or do not equate to in the in-game or British gun versions.

[admin]

6 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

I believe he is asking if you can provide the source that states the guns were carried on the ship at any point. As opposed to what the guns do or do not equate to in the in-game or British gun versions.

Do you personally believe that a modern spanish frigate that participated in the Battle of Cape St Vincent carried that inadequate monstrocity called obusier vaisseau? I will believe it when i see it on paintings, lithographs etc)) where they are actually installed on ships (or ship models). 

[Archaos]

Maybe someone who speaks Spanish could translate this for me, taken from https://es.slideshare.net/nelson3108/armamento-que-portaban-los-buques-de-la-real-armada

I note the Spanish SOL Santa Ana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Santa_Ana_(1784) was carrying 24lb Obuses but these seem to be in positions where lighter guns or carronades were carried in addition to her normal complement of longs.

[NethrosDefectus]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

Do you personally believe that a modern spanish frigate that participated in the Battle of Cape St Vincent carried that inadequate monstrocity called obusier vaisseau? I will believe it when i see it on paintings, lithographs etc)) where they are actually installed on ships (or ship models). 

I'm not sure you have got what I mean, I am not arguing about what a gun does or does not look like. I am asking for the source of your information that says the gun was used on the Spanish Diana

(The gun you say is the equivalent of a 24 pound long)

Edited August 28, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Percival Merewether]

16 minutes ago, admin said:

I was open to discussions when I was in the office (as had monographs at home). But now i checked the monograph  i trust.
From this point I do not see any additional value in going back and forth on the subject. Especially when you ask questions instead of providing credible sources, or memories of Diana captains. 

You clearly do not understand the point I was trying to make... This was never meant to be a discussion... I asked you a fair question regarding whether or not these guns were present on the main gundeck of the Diana. It is a simple yes or no question which I do not claim to have the right answer to.

I suspect you do not have that either

 If you do not know; then you could simply state so.. and I would continue to look for the answer regardless of what you do with the vessel inside your game.

All I wanted to know was what your source was so that I could look it up myself due to an interest in the ship that you have decided to put in-game..I am terribly sorry that I appear to have offended you.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Percival Merewether