Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[Malachi]

14 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I'd rather not doubt what you're saying - but I'm pretty sure you're wrong:

This is the 1815 configuration I've found:

• 6 Spanish 24-Pound Obusier
• 26 Spanish 12-Pounder
• 6 Spanish 6-Pounder

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2788

Like @Malachi says.. I really cannot imagine how they can fit 26, 24lb cannons on that ship.

EDIT: Another reference, but I think it's the same source as the above mentioned:

http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/914869/HCMF Diana (1792)

Hm, looks like she carried 18s for some of the sea trials, but that experiment wasn't repeated. Dunno how reliable 3decks is, though.

[Kawazz]

4 hours ago, admin said:

• We are gradually moving away from the static BR based on HP and DPS characteristics and will also consider several other factors including battle performance data.

AWESOME UPDATE!

@admin Once the patch is ready, can we get a formula to calculate the BR? 

[admin]

21 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I'd rather not doubt what you're saying - but I'm pretty sure you're wrong:

This is the 1815 configuration I've found:

• 6 Spanish 24-Pound Obusier
• 26 Spanish 12-Pounder
• 6 Spanish 6-Pounder

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2788

Like @Malachi says.. I really cannot imagine how they can fit 26, 24lb cannons on that ship.

 

The main determinant is if the gun fits the port and the deck and if at least 1 gun had been installed on the deck historically.
If the 24lb gun was on the deck historically then it means they CAN fit 24lb guns on the gundeck.

now if you have enough crew or if the ship will be slower because of 24lb weight its another question. 
+ definition and size of Obusier could be argued as well. If more data is uncovered we can review this again.

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

The main determinant is if the gun fits the port and the deck and if at least 1 gun had been installed on the deck historically.
If the 24lb gun was on the deck historically then it means they CAN fit 24lb guns on the gundeck.

now if you have enough crew or if the ship will be slower because of 24lb weight its another question. 

68pd for victory incoming?

[Malachi]

All I can see is 24-pound obusiers on the quarterdeck *scratcheshead*

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Malachi said:

All I can see is 24-pound obusiers on the quarterdeck *scratcheshead*

References point to a historical mix of 6 24lb guns (obusiers) and 26 12lb guns on the gundeck 
three decks for example lists main gundeck first

Also diana is not small - its only 20cm narrower than Endymion and has same width as Leda/Hebe class.
 

[Percival Merewether]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

The main determinant is if the gun fits the port and the deck and if at least 1 gun had been installed on the deck historically.
If the 24lb gun was on the deck historically then it means they CAN fit 24lb guns on the gundeck.

now if you have enough crew or if the ship will be slower because of 24lb weight its another question. 

But has it been outfitted with 24lb cannons before? I cannot see any references to 24lbs on the gundeck anywhere.

What sources have you used? I'm genuinely curious about this.

9 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Dunno how reliable 3decks is, though.

Not very, but it's the only reference I can find  

[Vernon Merrill]

I’m sorry.  But in my opinion this is NOT a 24-lb. frigate.

But it’s a game, so, we’ll see.  

But a ship HALF the size of a Connie with a similar broadside weight would have been far more prevalent in history than Diana ever was.  

[Sella]

Hoe does the "she carried a few 24prds" translate to "the whole deck can be 24pdrs". Isn't that impossible sometimes when the ship wasn't designed for them? Are there any references of this case withe Diana?

[Percival Merewether]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

three decks for example lists main gundeck first

Three decks is not that reliable, it does not always list the main gundeck first.

9 minutes ago, Malachi said:

All I can see is 24-pound obusiers on the quarterdeck *scratcheshead*

I believe that to be correct.

1 minute ago, Lieste said:

Concur. She is a 12lb frigate of conventional size and form. Later fitted with light weight 'over-bore' ordnance of howitzer/obusier form in 24lb size (if not shot weight).

This is also my understanding - been reading for a few hours now.

[admin]

6 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

Hoe does the "she carried a few 24prds" translate to "the whole deck can be 24pdrs". Isn't that impossible sometimes when the ship wasn't designed for them? Are there any references of this case withe Diana?

You are asking a wrong question. The correct question to ask would be - if captain could fit 6 24lb guns, could he fit the whole gundeck with 24lb guns suffering the penalty for crew and speed. 

+ again - the proper definition of obusiers will solve the dilemma.

 

3 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

Three decks is not that reliable, it does not always list the main gundeck first.

for all popular ships main deck is listed first. Victory, trincomalee, endymion 

[HachiRoku]

If the difference between cannon calibers and penetration was not as meaningful in game putting 24s on the ship would not harm balance either. Maybe 12 pounders can find their way back to the surprise

[Vernon Merrill]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

You are asking a wrong question. The correct question to ask would be - if captain could fit 6 24lb guns, could he fit the whole gundeck with 24lb guns suffering the penalty for crew and speed. 

+ again - the proper definition of obusiers will solve the dilemma.

Not necessarily true, in my opinion. The reason they WOULDNT have done it is NOT because the couldn’t, but because the timbers and structure  wouldn’t stand it for very long.  

Hogging of the keel would have been a huge problem. 

[Sella]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

You are asking a wrong question. The correct question to ask would be - if captain could fit 6 24lb guns, could he fit the whole gundeck with 24lb guns suffering the penalty for crew and speed. 

+ again - the proper definition of obusiers will solve the dilemma.

I don't know. That wouldn't be much of a problem with some mods.

I just find that logic flawed. Why should a ship that had some cannons of bigger caliber that she was designed to carry, has her whole gundeck changed? With the same logic the prince should be a full 9pdr etc?

[Potemkin]

What is her in-game crew total? It may not be wise to put 24lbers on her.

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Lieste said:

These are *not* guns. The field howitzer with it's carriage came to less than 17cwt, and the ordnance alone to ~5.8cwt (perhaps 8.8cwt if I mis-read the ratio of carriage to ordnance weight).

Compare to 45-50cwt for a bare 24lb gun of conventional naval type.

Link the references and we will review
Need more data on the Spanish 24lb obusier from the end of 18th century (not late 1850s european/french obusiers like napoleons)

[Vernon Merrill]

Now THIS would be a fun patch change.  You COULD put 24’s on the Diana.  But every time you return to port you lose 5% speed and 10% structure as your keel turn to mush under twice the design weight.

 

😎 

[Percival Merewether]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Link the references and we will review
Need more data on the Spanish 24lb obusier from the end of 18th century (not late 1850s european/french obusiers like napoleons)

What is your source for the 24lbs, I'm still curious - have you checked the  "Modelos de Arsenal del Museo Naval"? Supposedly this has some information listed on the Diana.

[admin]

9 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

I just find that logic flawed. Why should a ship that had some cannons of bigger caliber that she was designed to carry, has her whole gundeck changed? With the same logic the prince should be a full 9pdr etc?

The logic was always simple. This is a game and we allow maximum caliber this ship or any sister ship of same class carried historically - even if they carried it for just one day on the sea trials. We have weight penalty from guns and we have crew size per gun. 

For example - because its a game some players are sailing with 6lb santisimas. Is it historical - probably not very historical, but was it possible in history - yes - captain decided on gun composition provided ship could fit them into ports, provide for recoil, and wont capsize on the first journey due to extra weight. 

Overgunning has penalties, especially if you lose crew. But we are not 100% sure and ready to review credible descriptions of 24lb spanish obusiers so we can tune the ship closer to what could have been.

[Lovec1990]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

Link the references and we will review
Need more data on the Spanish 24lb obusier from the end of 18th century (not late 1850s european/french obusiers like napoleons)

Obusier was French/Spanish answer too British Carronades so Diana by this logic can carry 12pd cannons or 24lb carros and not 24pd cannons

Edited August 28, 2018 by Lovec1990

[Cecil Selous]

Also just 3decks but an overview of the weight of french and spanish obusiers

http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915757/Obusier

[admin]

10 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

Obusier was French/Spanish answer too British Carronades so Diana by this logic can carry 12pd cannons or 24lb carros and not 24pd cannons

I will see - i have a couple of old french ordnance monographs at home (not in the office) but as far as i remember they look more like edinorogs and are definitely longer than carronades.

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Still waiting for 68pd carronades on a Victory  

 

ok!

 

[Lovec1990]

1 minute ago, admin said:

I will see - i have a couple of old french monographs at home (not in the office) but as far as i remember they look more like edinorogs and are definitely longer than carronades.

even if they are edinorogs in the end witch i doubt. Diana should only mount them or 12pd cannons

 

 

[Sella]

Let's upgun the Surprise, Prince etc with that logic. 

Just make the 24pdrs an extra gundeck like in the Prince instead of changing the whole deck.