Economic model design - Infinite Resources.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Present economic model design states the following rules:

- players can build resource buildings in ports where they own a outpost

- building will produce resources ad infinitum at a cost rate in gold and labour hours

- players can acquire resources in port via contracts place for gold bids

- contracts quantities will be fulfilled by players, limited quantity but infinite by design, or AI euro traders, infinite quantity.

- resources are infinite, there are no shortages nor supply crisis

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

discussion open

[Grundgemunkey]

depends on the alternative scenario

depending on your nation and amount of time you play shortages and supply crisis exist already .. for instance GB does not own a port that produces Teak, white oak , Live oak

this creates a shortage and high prices .. but the only people that really suffer are those that dont have an alt or dont play longe enough each day to earn the cash to pay for it ...

creating shortages will only drive players away the game is hard enough for those new to the game trying to establish themselves .. without making things worse  by creating artificial shortages ..

if your looking for ways to stimulate players .. a better option would just be regular port resets / wipes .. maybe once a year or every 6 months ..

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

depends on the alternative scenario

binary universe. infinite or finite. no national considerations.

Let's assume a binary scenario as well, Red Team / Blue Team one map territorial conquest with resources allocated.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

binary universe. infinite or finite. no national considerations.

Let's assume a binary scenario as well, Red Team / Blue Team one map territorial conquest with resources allocated.

 

yuchhh...No flavour.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

creating shortages will only drive players away the game is hard enough for those new to the game trying to establish themselves .. without making things worse  by creating artificial shortages ..

Ye, I was there during the great iron depression of 2016 and remember the loud and universal discontent. People disregard whatever sense it may make and feel negatively toward the limitation forced on their individual play session (s).

Whatever fancy new sense or systems we put in place; I can't see that it will ever play out differently. 10% of active players do something about it by engaging in RVR, the rest just suffer? (Numbers pulled out of my ass...)

Good or bad for the game as a whole? I can't say.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, Oberon74 said:

yuchhh...No flavour.

theorycraft has no flavour, just smell

[Angus MacDuff]

Yes, in the real world, resources would deplete, and trade could not always cover a shortfall, but we don't want that reality.  The real world of that period had many other factors that affected resource use and we don't have those here.  We are a small microcosm of that reality and therefore need the unlimited access to these resources.  We do nothing but build ships and fight. 

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, jodgi said:

Ye, I was there during the great iron depression of 2016 and remember the loud and universal discontent. People disregard whatever sense it may make and feel negatively toward the limitation forced on their individual play session (s).

Whatever fancy new sense or systems we put in place; I can't see that it will ever play out differently. 10% of active players do something about it by engaging in RVR, the rest just suffer? (Numbers pulled out of my ass...)

Good or bad for the game as a whole? I can't say.

the great iron depression ,,, was more about a perceived inbalance created by devs .. ie it favoured some nations over others  some had it and some did not .. and the did nots didnt have the means to get it even if they wanted to try for it

[Norfolk nChance]

@Sir Hethwill the RedDuke

 

Couple of points first. The economic model so we are lead to believe is about to change dramatically.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25771-partial-materials-wipe-advanced-warning/

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25623-next-big-patches-real-currency-and-open-world-user-interface-update/

Are these two going to be rolled out soon?

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26265-correcting-the-negative-impact-of-the-euro-trader-mechanic-on-contract-markets/?page=3

This we’ve talked at length about and why the ET exists but doesn’t work. Also, NO additional work on the economy can be done until the top two Dev ideas are rolled out first.

 

I love the idea down the road...

Down the road yes, I like but the game needs a balancer. Imagine [EDARK] dumps ALT farmers into a port and continues to extract key resources unabated? Locking out single PCs is a big NO-NO so parking rental and extra tax is needed to be applied. You can’t favor the port owner as [EDARK] has invested in the PORTs growth, allocation each cycle must be random.  This is deeper coding...

There needs to always be a counter balance ability to stop or lock out completely a resource.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

This was real life and is very hard to achieve, NA-OW it’s too easy to achieve. Another example GB wanted Tea from China while China would only accept payment in Silver. GB sold Opium (grown in India) illegally into Southern China for silver. This broke the tea monopoly creating a huge population of heroin addicts...

 

Norfolk.

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

great iron depression of 2016 and remember the loud and universal discontent

Also the oak one.

That is a good point. Where does the "economical meaningful model" starts and stops.

1 month into the wipe ( with added redeemable help packs ) warehouse were already packed with "infinite" resources.

I am looking to the top end spectrum, "the end game" players, the "have it all" ad infinitum.

 

 

[Grundgemunkey]

2 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Yes, in the real world, resources would deplete, and trade could not always cover a shortfall, but we don't want that reality.  The real world of that period had many other factors that affected resource use and we don't have those here.  We are a small microcosm of that reality and therefore need the unlimited access to these resources.  We do nothing but build ships and fight. 

not really .. what resources have ever run out and been impossible to get ? maybe dodo meat .. but as far as i know .. countries still produce copper, iron , wood .

 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

not really .. what resources have ever run out and been impossible to get ? maybe dodo meat .. but as far as i know .. countries still produce copper, iron , wood .

 

I mean resources in the 19th century Caribbean.  You wouldn't find unlimited Oak there, for example.  The unlimited resources that we enjoy in game are in compensation for the lack of a world-wide trade network.

[Norfolk nChance]

1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

I mean resources in the 19th century Caribbean.  You wouldn't find unlimited Oak there, for example.  The unlimited resources that we enjoy in game are in compensation for the lack of a world-wide trade network.

I agree, but not much core first rate ship building occurred either to create the shortage.

Game play ability with cycle restrictions yeah could work, but its a game mechanic like ETs and balance is definitely needed

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Unlimited resources has to be seen in relation with instant ship building. The funny ways of constructing a whole ship in a couple of minutes, if you have all material ready, and the speed how ships are being lost and need to be replaced - all this only works with unlimited resources.

Prepare for a big whining drama among the players once this balance changes and materials become really rare for keeping up the speed in ship crafting.

* Prices will explode.

* Captains will have to settle with smaller vessels as the bigger ones consume too much materials.

* The need to close down an exploited mine/forest and move on to another port for setting up a new one (assuming the place isn't exploited already by previous enterprises) will also consume money and the risk of losing your stuff when having to ship on new/long/dangerous transportation routes.

[Lovec1990]

Just now, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Unlimited resources has to be seen in relation with instant ship building. The funny ways of constructing a whole ship in a couple of minutes, if you have all material ready, and the speed how ships are being lost and need to be replaced - all this only works with unlimited resources.

Prepare for a big whining drama among the players once this balance changes and materials become really rare for keeping up the speed in ship crafting.

* Prices will explode.

* Captains will have to settle with smaller vessels as the bigger ones consume too much materials.

* The need to close down an exploited mine/forest and move on to another port for setting up a new one (assuming the place isn't exploited already by previous enterprises) will also consume money and the risk of losing your stuff when having to ship on new/long/dangerous transportation routes.

and more DLC ships sale

[Vernon Merrill]

26 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Yes, in the real world, resources would deplete, and trade could not always cover a shortfall, but we don't want that reality.  The real world of that period had many other factors that affected resource use and we don't have those here.  We are a small microcosm of that reality and therefore need the unlimited access to these resources.  We do nothing but build ships and fight. 

Your last sentence says it all...  This pond is a thousand miles wide and 3 inches deep.  

Maybe that too plays a role in people leaving?

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Your last sentence says it all...  This pond is a thousand miles wide and 3 inches deep.  

Maybe that too plays a role in people leaving?

Possibly, but it's Naval Action, not Civilisation.

[Vernon Merrill]

But dammit, I want both!!

;D

[Angus MacDuff]

I like Civ and would enjoy more depth in that regard, but it would not be popular to the majority. 

[Vernon Merrill]

I keep hearing this.  But maybe it’s actually one of the reasons people don’t necessarily stick around longer.  

Theres a vocal group who, in my opinion, assume all new players want a simple arena instead of a true 18th/19th century age of sail experience.  

But again, we shall see which way the devs go.  

 

[Lovec1990]

14 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

I keep hearing this.  But maybe it’s actually one of the reasons people don’t necessarily stick around longer.  

Theres a vocal group who, in my opinion, assume all new players want a simple arena instead of a true 18th/19th century age of sail experience.  

But again, we shall see which way the devs go.  

 

Not really its just devs that cannot decide they want realistic and historical or arcadic game they keep jumping inbetween 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Lovec1990 said:

Not really its just devs that cannot decide they want realistic and historical or arcadic game they keep jumping inbetween 

Realistic and historical would be very difficult.  The Caribbean didn't really produce much (sugar the exception).  You would almost need Trade Nodes of some sort and I would hate to see the competition for resources in that case.  I like that you can find places to gather your resources, even though it is not realistic.  Yes, I wish I could farm some more of them, especially the rare ones like copper etc.  And yes, I wish I could have more outposts, but overall, I don't mind the work involved. 

[Grundgemunkey]

realistic and historical would be very difficult because people died .. and didnt spawn back to the nearest port ..and have another chance

[Norfolk nChance]

Can find little ship building outside of UK waters, just maintenance, upgrades and repair. Bermuda 41 ships built 1803-1815. France similar...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/21533369.2003.9668328

So, either make it really hard to build anything above a 5th rate via a note. Or use the [EvE] demand and supply system. Each cycle a PORT will produce “x” amount of a resources.

 

Demand & Supply...

Say Oak Logs, 1,000 produces at a PORT. If the PORTs AI is offering 250 logs, then 750 only can be harvested that cycle. The 750 logs are dropped into the Buildings available. If total buildings only equal 650 harvested allocation leaving a 100 balance. The next cycle the PORT offers 1,000 – 250 (on sale with price rise) – (100 float) = 650 produced for the new cycle...

It will keep dropping supply and increasing price until demand takes it back to 1,000 logs.

 

Demand...

Demand in reverse, with 650 logs available and someone increase the building size so 700 is needed. The AI allocates the 650 available randomly with percentage weighting to the larger buildings until the 650 is complete.

This doesn’t account for stock piling either. The Clan builds would rarely suffer as they should always build in multiples and have resource stockpiles. The rare goods another issue.

 

Wider Balancer...

Instead of using just the PORT, using the PORTs region as allocator may prove less problematic and easier to code from a Dev’s stand point. Start with CORE resources first...

 

Norfolk.