DLC ships = Multi Dura ships

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

gaming the game   to hell with the experiencing the age of sail game

meaning?

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, admin said:

meaning?

intense gear wars  

a arms race operated from relative "total" safety

[admin]

1 hour ago, Oberon74 said:

You cant adjust what somebody bought.  If you bought a Xebex that redeems every 24 hrs, that has to stay. 

You can (especially in early access)
But we don't plan to adjust cool downs as we wanted them to be comparable with crafting times similar vessels. 

[Angus MacDuff]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

You can (especially in early access)
But we don't plan to adjust cool downs as we wanted them to be comparable with crafting times similar vessels. 

In that case, make the Xebec a paper ship that can be sunk easily (if hit), and if rammed, splits in half.  There has to be a downside to that thing. 

[huliotkd]

5 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

In that case, make the Xebec a paper ship that can be sunk easily (if hit), and if rammed, splits in half.  There has to be a downside to that thing. 

it's already a paper ship but a lot of players think that requin is a small ship only cause its a xebec...but its long as a surprise and a little larger in the middle...

even without all the mods and skillbooks, requin will be always the queen of the upwind due to his sailing profile.

 

during the age of piracy in the mediterranean sea, the arab xebecs were a pain in the ass for all nation exept for the italian Maritime Republics (genova, venice, amalfi, pisa)...the only ones able to fight against those african rats with their galleys.  Due to this ability , Britain payed (and should still pay) a tribute to Genova to have the licence to use the cross of San Giorgio (red cross on white flag, still in use on RN) on their ships to scare the rat xebecs  - history mode off -

 

so the requin isn't an OP ship due to DLC or statistics...is an OP ship cause player knows how to use it. nothing to change on that ship then...maybe skillbooks and mods have to be redefined.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, huliotkd said:

so the requin isn't an OP ship due to DLC or statistics...is an OP ship cause player knows how to use it.

I agree. Now, if you can spare time, go test your xebec open deck being shot by clouds of grape - test various types and various poundage, and post the video here. Thanks captain.

For comparison baseline use a Niagara and run the same tests. Thank you.

All tests that we, early access players, can do is appreciated and can only improve the game.

o7

[HachiRoku]

42 minutes ago, admin said:

You can (especially in early access)
But we don't plan to adjust cool downs as we wanted them to be comparable with crafting times similar vessels. 

You need to. Simple fact is that a cooldown makes it a trolling ship. What is the difference between a requin and a basic cutter? Why is a cutter not allowed to tag anymore? Have you ever considered redeeming a ship note? Or like in gta online. In that game if you destroy your car (including dlc cars) you need to pay a lot of money for insurance. I believe it was 30 or 40000k for high end ones. I have not played in a while tbf. Let's say you sink a requin maybe a 50k redeem price. Could make people think twice.  

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

I think @z4ys post a vid somewhere. Full hold - 15.4 and straight downwind normal cargo, something fairly high 13.4 or something like that. No idea about the equipment.

Yeah, it is easy to run away from anything when you know what you do and pay attention to the wind. Issue is, all the guys that know their stuff and grouped up and roving across the zones like moses through the red sea  

That the problem most casuals don't know things like that to get away or have a chance so they are easy pickings to the vets.  I tell folks all the time when tagged in a trade ships go with the wind when it's a Prince or something of that sail profile.  Than my second question is where is you escort ships?  As they are in like 4 trade ships with no escorts trying to max there penny off the trade goods they have.  

1 hour ago, Lovec1990 said:

herc is more problematic than requin balance wise.

still waiting for 3 dlc ship that admin said we will get

Please explain how the Herc is more than the Requin, I actuall think it''s very balanced in the 5th rate spot it's in right now.  Yes it's a strong ship to fight in the shallows and needs a higher BR, but we have not had a problem killing them with H. Rattlers and Niagara's before the DLC.  

53 minutes ago, admin said:

You can (especially in early access)
But we don't plan to adjust cool downs as we wanted them to be comparable with crafting times similar vessels. 

@admin I honestly think 36-48 hours would be better, they shouldn't have the same cool down as the yatch a 6th rate.  So that way what you can do for every rate above 7th you can add 12 hours to the cool down.  Also using the crafting time how much would a cool down a 1st rate if you ever did a DLC?  Or more realistic a 4th or 3rd rate?

43 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

In that case, make the Xebec a paper ship that can be sunk easily (if hit), and if rammed, splits in half.  There has to be a downside to that thing. 

It honestly needs to be a 5th rate to allow for it to use 5-4th rate perks and mods, this will kill a lot of the stat stacking like the crew that folks do.  It's the fastest way to balance the ship just like they did with the Herc.

23 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

it's already a paper ship but a lot of players think that requin is a small ship only cause its a xebec...but its long as a surprise and a little larger in the middle...

And see your comparing it to a 5th rate, it's not a 5th rate (though it should be one for game balance).  Like Hethwill posted below test it against a ship of it's class.  Right now the Herc and Rquin have 500 more HP's than any of the 6th rates.   All there stats match up with 5th rates in game all ready not the 6th rates.  Requin should be a 5th rate that can get into shallow waters OW but not port battles.

19 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

I agree. Now, if you can spare time, go test your xebec open deck being shot by clouds of grape - test various types and various poundage, and post the video here. Thanks captain.

For comparison baseline use a Niagara and run the same tests. Thank you.

All tests that we, early access players, can do is appreciated and can only improve the game.

o7

Specially when folks keep stacking the crew the ship needs something other than the Moral hit....when you stack that much crew it should be way easier to grape a ship like that.  

[z4ys]

26 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

That the problem most casuals don't know things like that to get away or have a chance so they are easy pickings to the vets.  I tell folks all the time when tagged in a trade ships go with the wind when it's a Prince or something of that sail profile.  Than my second question is where is you escort ships?  As they are in like 4 trade ships with no escorts trying to max there penny off the trade goods they have.  

 

I like to add the people sailing their Indiamen without guns and repairs and then begging for mercy cursing the game etc. Sometimes it's not the game making things easy sometimes it's the player himself.

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I like to add the people sailing their Indiamen without guns and repairs and then begging for mercy cursing the game etc. Sometimes it's not the game making things easy sometimes it's the player himself.

Happened last night...4 Indiaman...zero guns

[Sir Texas Sir]

13 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I like to add the people sailing their Indiamen without guns and repairs and then begging for mercy cursing the game etc. Sometimes it's not the game making things easy sometimes it's the player himself.

Even my trader brigs have guns, it's the only time i don't escort my trade ships cause if I loose something on one of them I can quickly replace, but any time I'm in anything else they all have guns.  It's only like what 20-40 cargo space they take up, that could save you your ships.  

 

11 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Happened last night...4 Indiaman...zero guns

and I bet he lost all 4, that is a lot of fire power if it was a solo hunter, I mean you might loose one, but not all four.

[Jean Ribault]

54 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I like to add the people sailing their Indiamen without guns and repairs and then begging for mercy cursing the game etc. Sometimes it's not the game making things easy sometimes it's the player himself.

 

I don't put guns on any of them.  Used to, but it's not worth it, just be careful.  The irony is only been taken once for the trade trip and that was when I had guns on, but was watching too much TV.  Didn't know I was tagged til shots were fired.  You probably have GOT or Westworld to thank for that, not lack of guns (or your skill, lol).

[Captiva]

7 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

You mean several durabilites and that modules are lost with each durability... or.... ?

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

If the reward for purchasing a DLC ship is that you can, after sinking,  redeem again in 24 hours, then something has to be implemented to somewhat re-balance the game towards the players that are unable (for whatever reasons) to invest in extra game content.

The only solution I can come up with is to reintroduce the multi dura crafted ship with a 24 hour cooldown. Even if this was done the DLC ship still retains a huge advantage in the it is redeemable in perpetuity without the need for crafting materials; not so for the multi dura replacement.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Captiva

[Captiva]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:22 AM, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

DLC ship serves quite well the player that dedicates 2 hours to the game and wants nothing to do with "clans/conquest" and simply wants to "smell the gunpowder and hear the roar of the guns". Redeem, sail out, battle, sink or return to port, logoff.

One may discuss the merits and sins of the DLC when being used by the several hardcore types ( they will always take all advantages ) but it is undeniable that those ships are a fast, affordable and time-economic way to play the game.

You couldn't have made the argument for multi dura ships any better.

[Fargo]

3 hours ago, admin said:

You can (especially in early access)
But we don't plan to adjust cool downs as we wanted them to be comparable with crafting times similar vessels. 

Assuming youre going to fix and balance economy after the next wipe, how is the effect of free ships (= free labour+gold) generating currency going to be compensated?

Especially if larger dlc ships get introduced, it could result in one half of players having to pay with more expensive crafted ships for the free ships of others.

I would suggest to keep dlc ships small, or to reduce currency rewards for dlc ships. And to finally make the largest ships an expensive ultimate currency sink, so people always have something to invest extra currency and labour in while smaller ships can remain affordable for everyone. Maybe also redeeming a dlc ship could cost some amount of labour, as kind of a middle way between just buying a dlc blueprint and getting the free ship.

Also increase repair cost for larger ships by alot, so in general PvE farming isnt several times more effective than using medium ships or doing PvP. With exponentially raising income a medium ship cannot be affordable for a mid rank captain, while remaining valuable for a high rank captain. Also crafted repairs should be significantly cheaper than npc repairs to generate demand for crafted repair items.

[Fargo]

15 minutes ago, Captiva said:

You couldn't have made the argument for multi dura ships any better.

Youre not understanding durability. There is not a single valid argument for multi dura.

Economy needs to be balanced, meaning the cost per durability needs to be balanced. Besides plausibility, the only difference between a 1 and a 10 dura ship would be the entry cost, you would have to buy 10 ships at once. What isnt really a good thing. 

[Njord]

2 hours ago, Fargo said:

Youre not understanding durability. There is not a single valid argument for multi dura.

Economy needs to be balanced, meaning the cost per durability needs to be balanced. Besides plausibility, the only difference between a 1 and a 10 dura ship would be the entry cost, you would have to buy 10 ships at once. What isnt really a good thing. 

Here I am still wondering why we are still discussing this topic when one dura made the game so much better in terms of realism and gameplay. Multi dura is something I wold expect from a temporary test server and not in the actual polished game.

[Captiva]

3 hours ago, Fargo said:

Youre not understanding durability. There is not a single valid argument for multi dura.

But I do understand durability. I played while we had it since it's inception. A 3 dura ship would have a minimal affect on the in game economy because all it really does is increase the amount of time before a player purchases or crafts another ship. Again, over the long haul, minimal affect.

And once again, I was all in favor of single durability ships when it was being discussed and before it's implementation. 100%

But with the recent addition of two DLC ships the Dev's have added multi durability ship's to the game - in perpetuity no less! Until and unless the Dev's change this for these two ships (which I doubt they will) then all players should have access to some limited form of multi dura, not just those who have paid money for the privilege.

Let the shop ships retain their 1 durability with a maximum of two upgrade slots and three knowledge slots so that the player crafted ships would command a higher price and always be the better ship between the two.

[Fargo]

2 hours ago, Captiva said:

A 3 dura ship would have a minimal affect on the in game economy because all it really does is increase the amount of time before a player purchases or crafts another ship. Again, over the long haul, minimal affect.

Yeah, all it really does is increasing this time by 200%... For the same time period thats 200% less ship cost, 200% less resources and labour needed to be replaced by economy, and 200% less ships demanded. Not a minimal effect.

Once again, the game, in this case money print vs. money sink and labour generation vs. labour sink, needs to be balanced. You cant just make stuff 200% cheaper. And if you could, you would just decrease the cost by 200%, without touching durability. Same effect, but no magic. 

In general why would you mess up economy just to make it more fair compared with dlc ships, instead of simply changing dlc ships to be fair compared with economic production?! Quick ideas are labour cost for redeeming a dlc ship, and dlc ships providing less currency rewards. You get a special ship you can have fun with without any effort, but no serious economic advantages. Otherwise crafted stuff would even need to become more expensive to compensate free dlc ships, depending on how popular they are.

I dont see the point to compare dlc ships with durability. In the same way crafted ships would translate into much more durability than 3, when people stack similar amounts of labour and gold again because eco balancing is not existent... Its just an balancing issue. What you call multi dura is basically free labour and gold you get each day after buying dlc ships. The easiest way to balance this would be to translate materials needed for crafting into gold and labour, and make it the redeem cost.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Fargo

[z4ys]

7 hours ago, Captiva said:

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

If the reward for purchasing a DLC ship is that you can, after sinking,  redeem again in 24 hours, then something has to be implemented to somewhat re-balance the game towards the players that are unable (for whatever reasons) to invest in extra game content.

 

It's called pvp marks and it allows to buy ships for notes. As many as the player can effort.

It's actual much better than the 24h CD redeem.

Edited August 1, 2018 by z4ys

[Captiva]

16 hours ago, Fargo said:

Yeah, all it really does is increasing this time by 200%... For the same time period thats 200% less ship cost, 200% less resources and labour needed to be replaced by economy, and 200% less ships demanded. Not a minimal effect.

So what? Compared to a DLC ship that is redeemable in 24 hours after sinking with zero ship cost replacement, zero resources to craft and zero labor hours needed? Absolute zero affect. 

Please understand my argument. If the DLC ship in it's current form is the new normal, then the player crafted ship must be balanced (in minimal way) to compete with DLC ships. Other wise the game is totally out of wack.

The same goes for the toxic combination of Alts with Prolific Forger DLC. Unlimited accounts, each of which can change character name and nation every 30 days. At it's simplest it breaks the spirit of the game, and at a deeper level it tarnishes the integrity of the game.

#One account, no alts, play the game as intended.

#change redeemable DLC ships to redeemable notes that have to be crafted, with a longer cooldown; if not, reintroduce multi dura ships for the unwashed masses.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Captiva

[Lovec1990]

17 hours ago, admin said:

we wont introduce new DLC ships until the long term effects of the first 2 are fully understood. 

Yet first two DLC ships are kinda broken so this is set up too fail. Long term effect= people will cry and you will nerf current DLC ships so much they will not be any good and later intreduce underperforming other DLC ships or scrap the idea of DLC ships

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

I wish DLC ships to be credible in the age of sail motif, not a "must buy" toy because it can replace anything in the OW.

And phrasing a pro player which sank me using one of those:

- "Is there any reason to use any other ships other than the DLC ones ?"

- "For OW no. For PB yes."

Enough said

----

Back to durabilities...

5 duras = to 5 times the price, the resources, the moving stuff around, the labour hours, etc.

Sure. Make it 10 even. That's 10 more times sailing the OW gathering stuff and maybe, if you sail your ships outside the zone, be open to trade raiding.

Do not know the details BUT, having the entire loss of guns and modules per dura might not be possible with multi duras, but don't quote me.

Also remember that when we had multiple durabilities we couldn't steal the enemy sinking ship equipment, so there's that also.

Did we forget all the changes already ?  

[Lovec1990]

20 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

I wish DLC ships to be credible in the age of sail motif, not a "must buy" toy because it can replace anything in the OW.

And phrasing a pro player which sank me using one of those:

- "Is there any reason to use any other ships other than the DLC ones ?"

- "For OW no. For PB yes."

Enough said

----

Back to durabilities...

5 duras = to 5 times the price, the resources, the moving stuff around, the labour hours, etc.

Sure. Make it 10 even. That's 10 more times sailing the OW gathering stuff and maybe, if you sail your ships outside the zone, be open to trade raiding.

Do not know the details BUT, having the entire loss of guns and modules per dura might not be possible with multi duras, but don't quote me.

Also remember that when we had multiple durabilities we couldn't steal the enemy sinking ship equipment, so there's that also.

Did we forget all the changes already ?  

DLC ship is so cheap to replace you only need to buy cannons thats why is so popular

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, Lovec1990 said:

DLC ship is so cheap to replace you only need to buy cannons thats why is so popular

Absolutely. Add on top them both being good enough to put a fight against rates above, even two rates  and it works wonders with roving squadrons anywhere.

I am sure it is a success given the amount of energy/time/resources that now is solely diverted to building PB kraken fleets and not waste any more economy in building all the other nice models for the OW ... right ?  win win power gamers