DLC ships = Multi Dura ships

[Captiva]

I submitted a question within another players post a few days ago regarding DLC ships:

With hind sight I'm now wondering if the Dev's initial idea of reducing 5 dura ships to 3 dura ships would have been the better direction that NA should have gone? As we all know, the Dev's abandoned this idea before trying it and decided to go the 1 dura ship route. And for the record I was all in favor of and supported the idea for 1 dura ships.

Fast forward. Now we have the option of purchasing DLC ships. DLC ships are sorta the same concept as multi dura ships; with the one exception that you have a 24 hr cooldown. So what if 3 dura ships had a 24 hr cooldown as well? This might mitigate the fear of P2W that DLC ships bring to the game by leveling the playing field a bit for those who cannot afford DLC content.

If an increase in OW pvp is the end result of DLC ships (which many players have noted), then 3 dura ships should logically provide a somewhat similar outcome. And an increase in OW pvp would surely trump any adverse affect that 3 dura ships would have on the economy; plus DLC ships and 'Admiralty Connection' DLC have already made that impact.

Again, I'm only questioning this because of the introduction of DLC ships that are redeemable in perpetuity.

 

[Lovec1990]

3 hours ago, Captiva said:

I submitted a question within another players post a few days ago regarding DLC ships:

With hind sight I'm now wondering if the Dev's initial idea of reducing 5 dura ships to 3 dura ships would have been the better direction that NA should have gone? As we all know, the Dev's abandoned this idea before trying it and decided to go the 1 dura ship route. And for the record I was all in favor of and supported the idea for 1 dura ships.

Fast forward. Now we have the option of purchasing DLC ships. DLC ships are sorta the same concept as multi dura ships; with the one exception that you have a 24 hr cooldown. So what if 3 dura ships had a 24 hr cooldown as well? This might mitigate the fear of P2W that DLC ships bring to the game by leveling the playing field a bit for those who cannot afford DLC content. P2W issue is becouse devs screwed up and used two known OP ships as DLC ships if DLC ships were balanced and not top of their rates for example if Santa cecilia was used as DLC ship would it be still P2W?

If an increase in OW pvp is the end result of DLC ships (which many players have noted), then 3 dura ships should logically provide a somewhat similar outcome. And an increase in OW pvp would surely trump any adverse affect that 3 dura ships would have on the economy; plus DLC ships and 'Admiralty Connection' DLC have already made that impact. 3 Dura ship may help but its not DLC ships you still gona count your lives left while with DLC ship you do not care at all.

Again, I'm only questioning this because of the introduction of DLC ships that are redeemable in perpetuity.

 

read green colored text

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Fact: Cannot redeem more than "1 dura" per 24 hours.

-

DLC ship serves quite well the player that dedicates 2 hours to the game and wants nothing to do with "clans/conquest" and simply wants to "smell the gunpowder and hear the roar of the guns". Redeem, sail out, battle, sink or return to port, logoff.

One may discuss the merits and sins of the DLC when being used by the several hardcore types ( they will always take all advantages ) but it is undeniable that those ships are a fast, affordable and time-economic way to play the game.

Changing the entire foundation of the game to accommodate to the DLC makes no sense, as I see it.

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

One may discuss the merits and sins of the DLC when being used by the several hardcore types ( they will always take all advantages )

It reminds me of justification for creation of heroine/opium. Heroine is good - it helps people to fight pain. It's only people who overuse it who are weak and bad. Herione on it's own is good. It serves the society very well! Overdoses? Opium wars? Ah, that was just some hardcore crowd, some uber-elites using situation in China for their own gains. It should be accessible more easily, it would make world a better place.

If you think economy needs a ship to redeem easily, make it eg. a BellePoule, or Ingermanland.

Edited July 30, 2018 by vazco

[Magallanes]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

 

-

DLC ship serves quite well the player that dedicates 2 hours to the game...

Im not quite sure of that... DLCs captains spent a lot of time in game without pain to lost your ship. They will have another in 24 hours, but they need pvp marks to obtain good upgrades for the next ship, so we are forced to play for pvp and a lot

I think the relation between ship losses/mark gained is too favourable to second right now..and the DLC ship will be in docks every day 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Sorry, I completely fail at understanding your analogy @vazco

In any multiplayer game, the hardcore competitive types will always push the bar. ANY game, and Naval Action is no exception  

( hardcore means a lot of things, not only competitive. )

 

4 minutes ago, Magallanes said:

Im not quite sure of that... DLCs captains spent a lot of time in game without pain to lost your ship. They will have another in 24 hours, but they need pvp marks to obtain good upgrades for the next ship, so we are forced to play for pvp and a lot

I think the relation between ship losses/mark gained is too favourable to second right now..and the DLC ship will be in docks every day 

DLC ship serves the player that plays 2 hours now and then and wants nothing to do with "sailing parts and baubles to build a ship" and want nothing from the economy of the game, not even the store apart from guns. DLC ships can even be played without repairs. Sail out, fight, and if it sinks it sinks. End session happy because he heard the guns, the seaguls, and had to sail through lots of combat smoke.

Regarding the relation of win loss; That's a very good point. The balance of wins/losses is indeed a odd one as the DLC ships do affect, at high rates, the flux of combat and conquest.

I suggest that we look forward to the ship models having their characteristics issues fixed and then review this in depth.

We all have good points regarding the DLC and no opinion can be disregarded as we all see the game and the gameplay from different angles.

One thing is true - the DLC is here to stay.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

DLC ship are still one dura ships as you loose all your upgrades on it when you sink.

That was not the case when ship had multiple dura and then when your ship was reduced to his last dura, no-one was willing to play with it anymore.

[vazco]

8 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

In any multiplayer game, the hardcore competitive types will always push the bar. ANY game, and Naval Action is no exception  

Your point is that there will always be some people searching for and using meta. My point is that it's ok, as long as meta doesn't require you to use paid - for DLC ships. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

5 minutes ago, vazco said:

Your point is that there will always be some people searching for and using meta. My point is that it's ok, as long as meta doesn't require you to use paid - for DLC ships. 

It is not my point, but I accept it as a universal truth. I dislike it a lot, was never part of my gaming culture in any media type, but we are not discussing that

No one is required to get anything. If you think very very hard about it, it is the race to meta think-tank that makes you believe that you MUST use paid DLC ships.

 

( offtopic: using trackir while playing arma gives a edge - hands free head movement. is it paytowin ? No. But is nice to have.  ) 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Sure. That's why testing them is paramount to find the things that are not working correctly and report them as best as possible so the developers can go through the issues and solve them.

Once the bad features / bugs are fixed then we look again to the relative strength, same as happened with Wasa.

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

"There is no spoon"

 

aka. the matrix effect

aka. my pixels hurt

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

21 minutes ago, springby said:

the problem isnt so much that you can buy ships but that the ships stats is way better than average. 

The Constitution class, Monitor and Merrimack, the ironclads, CSS Hunley, Dreadnought, all natural evolution's in naval warfare, countries could either afford to employ them or they could not, the Dreadnoughts  were were the ultimate P2W warship, they made every other ship obsolete overnight! Even they were outclassed by the 'super-Dreadnoughts in time. The others were harder to sink certainly, and they all had an impact out of proportion to what they actually were. In time solutions to these ships were found either through natural causes or the ingenuity of the enemy.

The Xebec's widely used in the Mediterranean Sea were something of a culture shock even for the old world navy's, they solved it by building their own xebecs and hybrids, paradoxically the infant USN managed to beat them with square rigged ships and schooners, so, one has to ask what did they do that the old world navy's did not?  

The Hercules, another 'local' ship was fast, maneuverable, and heavily armed for her size, The Argentine Navy was not among the elite navy's of the world, they had few ships of the line compared to the old world navy's so they compromised, Hercules did exceptionally well for her size, to a degree it is reflected well in the game.

Are they OP? Yes they are, but like all warships they have strengths and weaknesses, they are not invulnerable, eventually they were outclassed tactically, or became obsolete,  and one day, someone like Hachiroku and his Trincomalee, or Greg Rainsborough and his Snow will find a solution to them, they will do it by exploiting the weaknesses of the Xbec's and the Hercules's, or the weaknesses of their Captains, or both. 

The big questions perhaps, are not so much are they OP, not so much that as DLC ships are they P2W,  but, who will be the first to comprehensively and consistently beat these ships, naval warfare over the centuries has demonstrated that you can have the best equipment that mankind can devise, yet still lose because your opponent exploited your weaknesses,  the weaknesses of your ship, or both, and very occasionally, blind, dumb, luck. 

 

[Captiva]

5 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Fact: Cannot redeem more than "1 dura" per 24 hours.

Correct. I noted that in the post. And you could do the same for 3 dura ships. You lose your ship, you cannot redeem next dura for 24 hours. Gives the player who cannot afford DLC ships a similar opportunity. The difference being, they have to build a new 3 dura ship after losing the last dura. The player in the DLC ship never has to be concerned with this aspect of his game.

What's the take away from DLC ships? Get's them back out there as quickly as possible. There is no reason why 3 dura ships would not have the same affect, as I'm now convinced that 5 dura ships did. 

You can argue that there was no evidence that 5 dura ships increased OW pvp, but at the same time you can argue that eliminating them decreased OW pvp. More than a few players have noted the increase in OW pvp after the introduction of the DLC ships....replace them relatively quickly and cheaply and get back out there and fight; sooner rather than later.

 

3 hours ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

DLC ship are still one dura ships as you loose all your upgrades on it when you sink.

That was not the case when ship had multiple dura and then when your ship was reduced to his last dura, no-one was willing to play with it anymore.

Yes, you are right. And at the time many of us were arguing that a player should lose all upgrades every time he loses a dura. This would eliminate the phenomena of the 'one dura left' phobia.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

I can redeem several ships right now, just by giving away marks without any need of resorting to any other mechanics in the game other than roving the OW and attacking enemy players or, just to maximise profit per hour spend, going into reinforcement zones and invading battles.

And I do not have to wait 24 hours , click redeem, use note. Click redeem, use note.

"Our Bellonas shall block out the sun!"

 

 

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

I can redeem several ships right now, just by giving away marks without any need of resorting to any other mechanics in the game other than roving the OW and attacking enemy players or, just to maximise profit per hour spend, going into reinforcement zones and invading battles.

That's not maximizing profits, that's barely breaking even. Most of the time if you go in a Bellona to a protected zone alone, you will get sank before getting PvP marks worth the value of the Bellona (unless you mod it, which at this point is a very significant investment, which lowers your risks but increases value which you can potentially loose).

With DLC ships you just redeem, sail out to zone, sink people, piss people off, get sank, don't care, repeat, make people leave.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

5 minutes ago, vazco said:

With DLC ships you just redeem, sail out to zone, sink people, piss people off, get sank, don't care, repeat, make people leave.

Er... anything different than before using other ships ? Sail in in Privateers / Surprises / Wasas / Trincs / whatever and "sail out to zone, sink people, piss people off, get sank, don't care, repeat, make people leave" !?

Honestly, this is not the reasoning we are looking. We can go backtrack in the discussions and find exactly the same "sink people, piss people off, get sank, don't care, repeat, make people leave" - give us forts, give us zones, give us... - from the fury of the gankers deliver us...

Oh yeah, gankers in DLC ships... what a change...wow...

o7 cya

[vazco]

8 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

anything different than before using other ships ? Sail in in Privateers / Surprises / Wasas / Trincs / whatever and "sail out to zone, sink people, piss people off, get sank, don't care, repeat, make people leave" !?

Yes, there's a huge change - DLC ships trump all other ships and greatly increase your PvP marks /hour, your win/loose ratio and by costing nothing, your profit/loss ratio. In fine with the last one, but not the first two. 

[z4ys]

What about the gankers in cheap pvp mark bellonas? I see no difference.

[vazco]

Btw, I believe we had a fight with your two princes and refit against a herc, endy and Hermione. Before that I had a fight with your friend prince vs herc. How did you find those fights?

[vazco]

2 minutes ago, z4ys said:

What about the gankers in cheap pvp mark bellonas? I see no difference.

The difference is they're not cheap and that in herc you don't need to gank. Why do you even make such ridiculous comparisons?

Let's just duel - me in herc, you in any 4-6 rate. Prove me wrong in actions, not words

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

4 minutes ago, vazco said:

Yes, there's a huge change - DLC ships trump all other ships and greatly increase your PvP marks /hour, your win/loose ratio and by costing nothing, your profit/loss ratio. In fine with the last one, but not the first two. 

Fair enough  Some folk are okay with it, some are not.

Especially when one is at the short end of the stick and is intercepted by a ton of barbary corsairs.

To me, no difference from being jumped by a ton of ekranoplane bellonas.

Snappy salute.

[Christendom]

1 Dura ships + an expensive and rare mod system does seem rather counter productive.  Maybe the desired effect was to increase RVR for these ports, but it seems like all it did was create more alts.  Perhaps going back to the dura system on certain ships and players might not care about losing ships and PVP and RVR will increase.  

Edited July 30, 2018 by Christendom

[z4ys]

15 minutes ago, vazco said:

The difference is they're not cheap and that in herc you don't need to gank. Why do you even make such ridiculous comparisons?

Let's just duel - me in herc, you in any 4-6 rate. Prove me wrong in actions, not words

It all comes down to the pov. I like to quote a player here shortly after he sunk: "that one ship you guys sunk gave me hundreds of pvp marks" - I guess for that player losing a ship feels like losing a dlc ship for some casuals.

So in the end marks dlc it's all the same even crafted ships for players who have mats that last till the end of the Caribbean.

[z4ys]

5 minutes ago, Christendom said:

1 Dura ships + an expensive and rare mod system does seem rather counter productive.  Maybe the desired effect was to increase RVR for these ports, but it seems like all it did was create more alts.  Perhaps going back to the dura system on certain ships and players might not care about losing ships and PVP and RVR will increase.  

I don't see the issue on ships they are only a small part of the total value. Mods are the bigger evil so why not change them?

[vazco]

10 minutes ago, z4ys said:

It all comes down to the pov. I like to quote a player here shortly after he sunk: "that one ship you guys sunk gave me hundreds of pvp marks" - I guess for that player losing a ship feels like losing a dlc ship for some casuals.

So in the end marks dlc it's all the same even crafted ships for players who have mats that last till the end of the Caribbean.

Duel, or no duel? If no duel, please stop commenting that DLC ships are ok.