Proposal to change sail force mods

[z4ys]

Prologue

What I think is the intention of physic mods like "pirate rig refit", "spanish rig refit" and their elite counterparts is that the sailing profil of ships can be changed in some directions. More to the upwind or downwind part.

Litte video for better understanding.

 

What do the mods wrong:

 

Looking at those numbers it becomes clear that some ships have a bigger advantge than other ships by manipulation the sail force. Those mods start to create uber-ships changing sailing profils from the yellow line to the violet one.

The intention of those mods is reasonable and ok but not how its achived by manipulation the force.

My proposal:

Instead of force change mods every ship should come with 3 pre designed sailing profils. A upwind profil a default profil (current one) and a downwind profil. Those profils can be enabled by using a ship knowledge or mod.

Example:

yellow = default / red = upwind profil / blue = downwind profil ( ofc values are exaggerated for better visual understanding)

 

• When i equip the pirate rig refit I enable the red profil
• When I equip the spanish i enable the blue profil
• When i equip no such mods i get the yellow default profil

 

Pros:

• Easy balancing
• no ridiculous effects
• still ship customization
• no manipulation of the fsailforce strength and therefore smaller ships dont mutate to tug boats
• solves the problem of slow ships in ow but fast ones in instance therefore reduces tagging annoyance

 

Cons:

• Lot more work for devs
• crying meta freaks

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

My proposal:

1. make sail force work in OW (fake feature right now without this)

 

Admin said once that is not possible because ow has no physics

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Admin said that storms in battles are not possible (recently mentioned that they will work on it in the future)

Admin said that clan warehouse logs are not possible

Admin said many times that X is not possible, but we still got a lot of that stuff. 

Without working in OW, sail force is a fake feature and I would rather see it removed from the game totally.

the proposal is about to removing them and giving those mods hard numbers that even work in ow

All i read in your first post is that you want all 3 profils at one time and depending on the situation able to use them

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Yet again you miss the point of having negatives, that flaw of this I pointed out in point 3.

the negative is you change your profil. you get bad upwind while you become good downwind. where is the issue? Its not possible to change them at sea. Only in port

Quote

All i read in your first post is that you want all 3 profils at one time and depending on the situation able to use them

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

How is this not possible to change them at sea?

can you change mods at sea/ship knowledge ( except by reseting  the whole ship)

[z4ys]

7 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

It's not about changing mods, it's about hiding sails to not experience the negative effect of using them.

so you want only stuff that gives +?

[Teutonic]

interesting idea, this was different than what I was thinking.

------------------------------------------------------------------

a tl;dr of what i was going to suggest is

drop the sail force bonus on spanish/pirate by 50% so normal is 7.5% and elite is 15% but keep the penalty the same as it was (-15% and -30% respectively)
Then buff the knowledge slot sail force books by 1% (in most cases it would make them 4 or 5% bonuses now)

If someone wanted better sail force, they would have to use a Mod slot and knowledge slots to get it back now. Resulting in needing a perm and 2 knowledge slots to get 15% or a perm and 3 knowledge slots to get near 30%. But the debuffs would still be there so you would have an even "worse" sailforce of the "other" type.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if it would take the Devs longer to make 3 defined sailing profiles for every ship instead of just adjusting some stats?

Either way, I agree that the Permanent Sail force mods (Spanish and Pirate) are currently the WORST agitators for creating a very unbalanced Meta and probably need to be priority #1 when it comes to seeing what is causing some ships to be so blatantly OP.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Teutonic

[jodgi]

55 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Example:

  

This is kinda the intention of current sail mods. But then woods, books and stacking enters the stage and throws balance into the crowd.

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

 is historically accurate

like ramming ship and get no crew injuries

like replacing the whole mast at sea

like doing 15.5kn

like finding encyclopedias

like screening fleets that suddenly sail through the whole map while port was actually empty

like buying stuff for 30 million

like....

 

[z4ys]

5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

This is kinda the intention of current sail mods. But then woods, books and stacking enters the stage and throws balance into the crowd.

That why i porposed hard numbers. Currently a pirate rig can be fine on the privateer but the xebec just goes rocket. Its because balance between those  ships is hard because of the different sail areas. Hard numbers would change that and allow every ship to be unique but still balanced. Other way would be to make the current force mods depending on the ship they are used on.

For example the privateer would get  5% more force but same mod would do only 1% on xebec

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys

[Vile Executioner]

@z4ys couldn’t agree more man. Thumbs up 👍

Edited July 17, 2018 by Vile Executioner

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

. ..more magic that you're trying to bring ...

 

its a reduced system. like Bohr model vs Atomic orbital

VS

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said:

Admin said that clan warehouse logs are not possible

I have to correct you on this one, they never said it wasn't possible just it wasn't on there list of things to do and would mean programming time.   Which apparently they jumped up and got a rough version done cause we bitched enough.  Still needs a lot more work and hope the new In port UI if it gets here some time this year will have that.

[Tom Farseer]

3 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Not reduced system Bohr model is wrong and all modern scientists know it.

And? The orbital system is wrong, too.
Or rather "inaccurate" would be the better word. Bohr's model still finds use to describe phenomena for which it's accuracy is adequate. Almost every model that is actually used in practise, be it mathematical or chemical, is flawed in some way. The important thing is to find a balance between low complexity and high accuracy. Personally I'd be fine with the model @z4ys proposes here.

My idea would have been to halve the positives on both standard and elite rig refits while adapting negatives individually.
So for example:
pirate rig refit: Jib + 7.5% | Square -7.5%

elite pirate rig refit: Jib +15%   | Square -10% ( instead of -15% to give the expensive elite refit a bit of an edge)

Enhancing sail force by 30% has always been pretty absurd in my opinion. On most ships that additional energy would dissipate in a higher bow wave instead of extra speed, because the speed is hardcapped by the form of the hull. So you don't get faster, your sailors will just get seasick. 🤢

[Sir Texas Sir]

One of the negatives for any of the sail mods should be added crew.  Noticed this kinda got dropped fadded away cause folks Bitch about it taking up to much crew.

[vazco]

12 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

Personally I'd be fine with the model @z4ys proposes here.

The problem with an arbitrary model is that it's prone to mistakes even more than the current one. It would take a long time to tune it so that it feels and works well, just like a basic model took a lot of time. 

During this time expert players would find those sweet spots where some ship is OP, while casual players would struggle even more. 

It would be also much harder to adjust in the future, as someone would have to go through all ships and adjust three models in the same time. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by vazco

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, vazco said:

The problem with an arbitrary model is that it's prone to mistakes even more than the current one. It would take a long time to tune it so that it feels and works well, just like a basic model took a lot of time. 

During this time expert players would find those sweet spots where some ship is OP, while casual players would struggle even more. 

It would be also much harder to adjust in the future, as someone would have to go through all ships and adjust three models in the same time. 

Hard but not impossible like with the current design. Players always find the sweet spot.

Surprise -> Wasa -> endy -> bellona ....

A Spanish rig on a bellona or p frig is as broken as p rig on a xebec and there is no way to fix it other than removal of those mods or changing the system.

[SirAlatriste]

Since where the studding sails were used in history?

[AeRoTR]

21 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Couldn't be a more wrong statement, Xebec doesn't lose speed downwind, Bellona/Pirate Frigate lose a lot of speed upwind. 

So the pirate rig or spanish rig, they are  OP and xebec is also OP.

Be it xebec with pirate refit or your renomee with spanish refit which does 15.5 knots, it is the OP sail mods.

[z4ys]

30 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Wasa? Wasa?! 🤣 I guess you haven't been around much, there is almost none out at sea nowadays. The nerfhammer was huge, but I'm ok with it.

Couldn't be a more wrong statement, Xebec doesn't lose speed downwind, Bellona/Pirate Frigate lose a lot of speed upwind. 

The downside of this mode is fake. Losing speed upwind for a ship that's not designed to go upwind is fake. And by the way it is around 15% speed boost compared to 5 to 8% upwind speed loss. Which again only kicks in below 45° and is not important.

To make it more obvious it's like giving a car nitro who cares about the extra weight?

[Corona Lisa]

delete all mods tweak woods a bit and we are gucci

[Jean Ribault]

36 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

delete all mods ...

+1

[vazco]

4 hours ago, z4ys said:

A Spanish rig on a bellona or p frig is as broken as p rig on a xebec and there is no way to fix it other than removal of those mods or changing the system

Making those mods much weaker like Banished suggested would also work. 

[z4ys]

9 minutes ago, vazco said:

Making those mods much weaker like Banished suggested would also work. 

It will fix nothing. It's like reducing everything by 1kn. All stays the same just 1kn slower.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, z4ys said:

It will fix nothing. It's like reducing everything by 1kn. All stays the same just 1kn slower.

Not true because it only affects people using the mod. The mod users are slower but everyone else are the same speed as before.