My reasons why this Game will never Succeed....

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yeah, I guess  different games for different minds. Glad we have choices.

Though "ease the boredom" is not a selling factor on my book.

Give me NA anyday, sail, spot horizon, attack, fight, sink. Get another ship, go out again.

We make it more complicated than it really is  

 

[Fargo]

13 hours ago, Flinch said:

Eve has the economy, it has the players, it has PVE that has not been changed in a decade (litterally the same missions). 

Eve will never have the one thing that NA has; it will never have fun combat encounters. I'll take PB's over fleet engagements every day of the week. Hours upon hours of being an F1 monkey is nothing compared to sailing in battle in NA.

Eve has meaningful gameplay, because it has a working concept and thoughtful, working mechanics. 

Why is nobody understanding this? People dont play these MMOs just for fun combat, but to make progress and to achieve something in the game. You simply cant do this in NA. Player statistics and NA legends (cancelled?!) should prove that NA just as a meaningless combat arena isnt working. How obvious do things need to become?! 

Just take the economic aspect. Eve has an insane amount of professions/skills/careers. You have the freedom to do whatever you want, and it always will be meaningful and demanded by other players. NA has exactly one profession, and this one profession is absolutely meaningless. Since people can farm and trade labour, a single person could in theory supply the whole server with everything, while everyone else just grinds. Eve wouldnt even laugh about this, so ridiculously bad is this game design.

And it would be easy to improve. Trading, resource production, material crafting, low mid and high tier shipbuilder, upgrade crafting that also can be divided. Possibilities are there. But devs have this "the game needs to work for a single player" mentality, what is simply nonsesense. Then further you can base conquest/politics on e.g. gold and silver, strategically located, needed e.g. to craft the best upgrades, or maybe to allow you to craft 3/5 ships without RNG, just make it important without making it restricting. In addition, vary the production efficiency for different goods in different locations, to also make trading meaningful. Thats a concept that can work.

PvE or PvP doesnt matter if you make it work. But there is a simple reason NA needs to be PvP focussed. Its just so much less work to give players the tools to generate their own content, compared with doing basically the same stuff (and most likely worse) with AI. AI cant even control large ships properly, how do people seriously expect complex PvE content from a small dev team? PvE content can always be added later without problems. But NA needs a working core game at release.

[Lonar]

36 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Give me NA anyday, sail, spot horizon, attack, fight, sink. Get another ship, go out again.

The Problem here is you are a experienced player for you it is easy, now we have the problem that a new player needs to discover this and that is not given. Most player will quit before it, even player that played for longer do this. And from Enthusiast like you the game can not survive since it is a age of sail game, eve in comparison is a sifi game and sifi is for the majority a lot more sexy then wooden ships with sails. 

What NA misses like the post above me pointed out is a complex economy and things you can do without high loss risk to hook player and make them stay and then they will test PVP and enjoy this part to.

Also i think threads like this with reasons why the game is bad and cant survive do not help without ideas what to change to make it more fun. Brainstorming-Threads would be much more useful, some of the ideas may be stupid for one person but inspire other ideas that are better and shouldnt be judged there.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Lonar

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

I reckon we make it more complicated than it is due to our own wishful thinking.

- Grab ship, sail out, fight.

Player is a "navy" on its own. Player and his clan are a "nation" on its own.

Cannot get more simple than that.

We want it more complex or more simple ?

We want more PvE or more PvP ?

We, the people.

[Lonar]

We want PVE to get PVP, we want it simple to become complex. Basically we need a better learning or beginner curve. I personally think it is to steep at some point a easy fun entrance and after you had your fun there you discover complexity.

I would even go so far to think about fishing missions where you learn sailing into fishing circles and follow them and so on and from there you earn a bigger trader or something and go further. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Lonar

[Vernon Merrill]

22 hours ago, Fenris said:

In EVE there are spaceships shooting at spaceships, and there is space. And it is never boring, now guess why.

Almost 40 000 players online at prime time, NA has 450. Go figure.

 

Star Wars vs. Master and Commander.  Which has been more popular?

Now re-examine your numbers.

 

[Moria15]

On 7/7/2018 at 7:56 PM, Jean Ribault said:

Honestly the reinforcement zones are now ineffective so it doesn't matter much.  They never bothered me much and being a trader more of high end goods I didn't get much safety anyway since I was mostly outside of them.  However, I'd be just fine with eliminating them altogether if there was a way to stop newb ganking.

If ooooonly there was a way to eliminate tagging of lower ranks.....

Seems pretty easy coding to me.  But what do I know.

I would have thought that even easier coding would be....    no PVP marks for killing a ship in the green zone.  That would pretty much solve all the issues in one go with a micro coding change of the if else variety.    It would then severely limit ganking as there wouold be no point apart from just being a true griefing excersise.  would make the green zones truly a (mostly) protected area and drive true PVP combat into OW where people claim they want it to be.

 

After that you can work on things like econonmy etc to turn this from an MO into something that gets close to an MMO.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Okay, "we" want Operational level working - meaning the road to PvP to be paved with decision making, logistics and choices.

Better learning ? Don't understand exactly.

Better beginner curve is not hard, but combat is the same for all. Though more information is needed at start. Please feedback on the Tutorial feedback threads  

Combat can be complex. As an example and small sample, 6 players did complete the tutorial Final Exam in 6 different ways. Meaning it is not a puzzle to break with 1 solution.

There's a lot of factors that do not see a common support by the community though, one of them being "more PvE needed".

I keep my own view in the open - less mmo, more simulator/wargame.

 

[z4ys]

10 minutes ago, Lonar said:

We want PVE to get PVP, we want it simple to become complex. Basically we need a better learning or beginner curve. I personally think it is to steep at some point a easy fun entrance and after you had your fun there you discover complexity.

I would even go so far to think about fishing missions where you learn sailing into fishing circles and follow them and so on and from there you earn a bigger trader or something and go further. 

NA changed a lot of its target grps during the development. The learning curve fits to any sim game. But gameplay (pvp marks + ship notes + instant ship redeems + patrol area ... )of NA changed to an arena game. So point -  click -  kill and this crowd cant handle the complex legacy parts of the remaining sim features.

NA has to figure out what it want to be to completely satisfy 1 target grp. Or keep being mixed and appeal only partial to different target grps and creat headache for each grp.

Edited July 9, 2018 by z4ys

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Oh my...

DesMoines...

- click sail, click attack, have fun.

That's blablablabla enough for you master Jedi ?

or too complex ?

[Lonar]

13 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

There's a lot of factors that do not see a common support by the community though, one of them being "more PvE needed".

Learning curve well after the tutorial you have hearded about all the stuff you need to know but you are really bad at doing it, so we need something to train people more before they suffer, and we need to reward them so they dont feel bad if they fuck it up, at the moment you can loose at least feeled everything (thats btw. a fact why i still believe durability was a good idea). But i dont have a good idea for it to be honest. 

Why i think more PVE, is because PVE generates PVP. It creates new player for example and when they feel comfortable they go to PVP without getting forced to do it. But because they want and are interested in the crazy rewards or something. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Lonar

[Fenris]

2 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Oh my...

DesMoines...

- click sail, click attack, have fun.

That's blablablabla enough for you master Jedi ?

or too complex ?

You explained it..."click sail, click attack"....

No fun in that in long terms.

Simply boring.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, Fenris said:

You explained it..."click sail, click attack"....

No fun in that in long terms.

Simply boring.

Fair and honest

Not necessarily true for everyone.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, DesMoines said:

we can t click attack...where are players??? you can say me GOD....of my …

Yep, combatnews is bugged. No pvp happens anywhere.

Oh... wait... maybe it does happen 😮 just maybe not when we want it 😮

"I love PvP when I want to PvP not when you want to PvP" ?

I think this might be more true than not for many of us 🤔

 

[Lonar]

"I love PvP when I want to PvP not when you want to PvP" 

This is actually a really deciding factor for fun we want at least the illusion of having control.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Lonar

[Moria15]

14 hours ago, Flinch said:

Eve will never have the one thing that NA has; it will never have fun combat encounters. I'll take PB's over fleet engagements every day of the week. Hours upon hours of being an F1 monkey is nothing compared to sailing in battle in NA.

Eve has the equivalent of Port Battles, and has meaningful and fun combat encounters daily.   Taking a star system or a wormhole in Eve is the same as a port battle in Eve and moves all the resources of that are to the group that controls it so they can use it in their production or sell it to others to make a profit from the resources in that system.    Holding a system allows you the access to not only that systems resources in space but also the resources from any planetary bodies in those systems.

Oh and working up a fleet incursion(port battle) with upto 5000 ships a side is a damn sight more fun that having to go through the artificial methodology of attacking a port in NA and building up aggro then using a few ships to fight a baby battle that gains you nothing but a cost to maintain.

PS  the fight for B-R5RB ( a port battle in effect ) had 7,500  players all fighting over a period of 21 hours with a max of 3000 all fighting simultaneously.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Moria15 said:

Eve has the equivalent of Port Battles, and has meaningful and fun combat encounters daily.   Taking a star system or a wormhole in Eve is the same as a port battle in Eve and moves all the resources of that are to the group that controls it so they can use it in their production or sell it to others to make a profit from the resources in that system.    Holding a system allows you the access to not only that systems resources in space but also the resources from any planetary bodies in those systems.

Oh and working up a fleet incursion(port battle) with upto 5000 ships a side is a damn sight more fun that having to go through the artificial methodology of attacking a port in NA and building up aggro then using a few ships to fight a baby battle that gains you nothing but a cost to maintain.

PS  the fight for B-R5RB ( a port battle in effect ) had 7,500  players all fighting over a period of 21 hours with a max of 3000 all fighting simultaneously.

Two things. One, pos shooting is way worse than grinding hostility and they are basically the same.

Battles like B-R happen almost never and they take 21 hours because of time dialation, realistically the game chugs at 2% of real time in those battles to keep the server alive. The full battle is only about an hour stretched into a full day.

Its fun to say 'I was there'. But it wasnt that fun to actually be there. SOURCE: I was there.

[victor]

51 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Oh my...

DesMoines...

- click sail, click attack, have fun.

That's blablablabla enough for you master Jedi ?

or too complex ?

"click sail, click attack, have fun" can work for you, but it's not enough fun for a lot of us 

So, just to use your own words .... is this too complex to understand?

[Wind]

Thing is, they started in a very unusual way. They built the roof first and put it aside. Then started with foundation , but ran out of funds and support because the roof itself is not much of use. What we see now if the foundation taking shape and we are required to fund it again(DLCs) otherwise that roof will never be used. I will say no more, but once we get the whole team working on content that NA needs badly then we will see a comeback. It could take another year at least. 

Game is good as is, but it's empty shell. This means every 2nd casual player will quit and leave a bad review. Game needs a story to become alive and live. Simulators rarely survive for a long time. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Wind

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 hour ago, victor said:

"click sail, click attack, have fun" can work for you, but it's not enough fun for a lot of us 

So, just to use your own words .... is this too complex to understand?

A lot  for many.

See, this is the great thing about exchange of opinions, I see you aspire to a more complex simulation of the age of sail. I know others aspire to a more complex combat simulation without a care for the OW stuff. 

We are all here, hoping that our own "what works for me" comes to play.

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

35 minutes ago, Wind said:

Simulators rarely survive for a long time. 

OMG Wind, seriously ? Get real man. Simulators survive for decades with more daily pop that your average steam game. Maybe because they are designed different and to a specific customer base.

FSX, IL-2, Rise of Flight, Falcon, DCS, ... oh my oh my... just the amount of cash devoted to FSX alone, by developers of all the airports, virtual airlines, ATC modules, and hardware leaves a Fallout4 Bethesda on the flat.

 

[Raf Van Boom]

Click sail, attack, have fun, yup, that definitely works for me. Not interested in contract wars, hauling imaginary resources or any of that other stuff. Combat and OW unpredictability is all I need, personally. Does me sinking a trader ship really impede a nation's ability to wage war, nope. Is an established player really taking a big loss if his/her ship is sunk? Again, no.

Most of the kills in OW have no meaning, as all the stuff is easily replaced via alts, outpost DLCs or whatever. I don't see how these 'imported' ships are any different.

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

... an established player...

From that pov you are right. There is really no difference if a player with 6warehouses full of bits and parts loses a crafted ship or an imported.

That view can change if it's a new potential customer or a new player without that eco backup.

For them it's a gameplay changer. Ships that require nothing except real money and 3 clicks each day - bypassing eco feeding the daily meaningless slaughter.

[Wind]

46 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

OMG Wind, seriously ? Get real man. Simulators survive for decades with more daily pop that your average steam game. Maybe because they are designed different and to a specific customer base.

FSX, IL-2, Rise of Flight, Falcon, DCS, ... oh my oh my... just the amount of cash devoted to FSX alone, by developers of all the airports, virtual airlines, ATC modules, and hardware leaves a Fallout4 Bethesda on the flat.

 

I am real. Simulators = Crumb Catchers. I am talking money here, they are on the bottom of the pyramid and always were. Simulators are for old dudes who are retired and still want to ride that train in their backyard or on PC screen. Young generation is where the money is. Content is what makes $$$. ex. Player goes and spends 100s of dollars on avatar costumes. You just made a load of cash in a day compared to your 10 simulator sales. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Wind

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Laughing My Ass Off.