Speed Capped Ships and Speed Meta

[Slim McSauce]

A new day, a new meta. Well, not so new. Once more player persistence has prevailed, we are back to the days of 15knt bellonas. Correction, 15.5. 

Some things that helped:

• reducing ship speeds across the board
• reducing mod effectiveness 

things that didn't help:

• 5/5 ships
• pvp mods
• raising the cap

things that COULD help

• further reducing mods effectiveness/stacking ability
• further reducing base speeds on all ships
• compressing the stats from fir-LO to create more conformity to base stats of a ship
• removing speed cap so ships with faster base-speed will retain that to the high end and not be capped to forced-equality.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Urchin]

NO MOD STACKING!

Problem solved.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by William Wade

[victor]

Speed meta's purpose is to allow players creating "ganking only" ships: ships that are good just for killing traders and noobs and fleeing from actual combats and counter fleets.

So, until ganking will be the actual way of playing of so many of the (few) left "core players" in this game, speed meta will not be touched.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by victor

[Guest]

Well there are still a few of us solo hunters around that have been forced to embrace the speed meta, because there is no other way to avoid being ganked ^.^

Don't get me wrong, I stay away from Fir like the plague. My ships are combat worthy, but they are as fast as possible. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Guest

[Capn Rocko]

My "very fast" Bellona w/ Elite Spanish, cooper plating, and AoSH does 13.5 knots. If people are hitting 15.5 then it must be with squishy builds. If someone wants to sail a paper ship at max speed, be my guest. If someone wants to spend the money on a 5/5 ship and stack speed mods, be my guest. As long as speed mods exist, people will go full retard. Remove the speed cap and lets have some fun 😎

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, EliteDelta said:

Well there are still a few of us solo hunters around that have been forced to embrace the speed meta, because there is no other way to avoid being ganked ^.^

Don't get me wrong, I stay away from Fir like the plague. My ships are combat worthy, but they are as fast as possible. 

What about the people who do use fir to put their ship at the very limit of speed and use that to ride out any situation they find unfavorable? There's always the ability to run if you have a fast enough ship but there should also always be the ability to catch a ship running which is impossible UNLESS you have an equal sized ship of the same speed or greater, otherwise you aren't doing serious sail damage or chopping any masts to slow them down long enough for you to tangle them up yourself.

You can put some blame to speed meta why you're getting ganked, because instead of even numbers of ships being enough you always need one decked out speedster to be able to reliable engage in PVP. We've seen how much numbers can mislead in a battle, if the skill gap requires a group of pubies and mixed clans to outnumber their pvp slick opponent by 2 to balance the odds and have a chance in a battle then I'd say you've brought the gank on yourself to some degree.

I think a new OW ROE is in order. Something that is more geared towards creating many small, even fights to occur and not one that has you constantly fighting 2 and 3:1 odds.
Infact instead of making a new threat I'll just say it here. OW should have a ROE where battles are limited to 1.5x only when joining but during a tag everyone is in the circle is dragged in regardless of numbers. 

This should be familiar to everyone, it's basically patrols which we've all played once if not your main source of PVP. But it's not as simple as plopping down another zone. This is the entire map we're talkin. To make a ROE like this work on a scale wider than missions there needs to be some changes, not big ones but things gotta fit together ya know.
Firstly the timer to join needs to be bumped up to 10 minutes or so. I know this will sound like a horrible idea to some of you but just think you won't have to worry about getting absolutely blasted by a big fleet joining in those 10 minutes. Ever newcomer will be a treat to the battle, it won't be annoying because there's a good chance the battle will progressively get bigger as time goes on and things will get more intense as the two sides slowly grow into each other.

We know this works because we see it all the time in patrols. Patrols, to my surprise are so successful even though they aren't in my view really engaging themselves, and are only a means to find PVP because population is so low it's just impossible to find a good fight sometimes. The ROE works very well and the battles, FOR THE MOST PART, when everything adds up and players are trickling in as they come across and not bombarding you with UBER MEGA GENK FLEET, are very enjoyable.

tl:dr patrolzone-like ROE for OW because the population is too low and the gank is too damn high.

 

 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

Perhaps if countergank fleets weren't the norm then there would be no need to have fast ships.

[Slim McSauce]

25 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Perhaps if countergank fleets weren't the norm then there would be no need to have fast ships.

Large, imbalanced fights should only come from whoever is pulled in from the initial tag. After that supple time for the out numbered side to receive reinforcement until the battle hits that 1.5x limit. As long as you aren't hunting right outside a capital you usually don't have to worry about a large countergank fleet hitting you when you leave a battle. But as regular ROE you expect over the course of some time (not the entire battle because OW time is compressed), but the first 10 minutes or so for there to be some reinforcements who stumble across the battle who should be for the side with the lower numbers, but if not it can only go towards the "gank" side until it hits 1.5x battlerating and joining from that side is locked until battle closes from the timer or someone joins the other side, increasing BR, enough so that perhaps you can fit whatever ship your sailing to fit into the 1.5br limit.

[admin]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

 

• further reducing mods effectiveness/stacking ability

Mods will be rebalanced by july

 

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

Mods will be rebalanced by july

great to hear, I think the extra mods from pvp with reintroduction of 5/5 ships had a counter affect on the progress made balancing ships. It was only a matter of time before players found the optimal build, which again seems to be the 3rd rates being right in the sweetspot for firepower and speed.

[admin]

10 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

great to hear, I think the extra mods from pvp with reintroduction of 5/5 ships had a counter affect on the progress made balancing ships. It was only a matter of time before players found the optimal build, which again seems to be the 3rd rates being right in the sweetspot for firepower and speed.

All mods will be rebalanced based on the simple system

• Mod bonuses should be RELATIVE to the parameters they affect
  • example
    • Current penetration bonuses are much smaller relatively to their affected parameter compared to other stats which can be doubled.
      • penetration bonuses (very small boosts) vs reload bonus or vs repair time bonuses (very large boosts)
      • same can be said about speed or turning. If max speed bonuses can only grant you 3 knots (or 3/15 of max possible base stat) then all upgrades of same rarity, must give the same relative bonus 3/15 of the base stat
  • All upgrades should use the same system affect stats in a relatively equal way (especially absolute increase % bonuses)
• Negatives should add up faster (bigger) so stacking punishes you

 

[staun]

In generally all have acces to the books and upgrades, they just drop to rare, maybe make more drops. Fine with a small rebalance, but lets us just not go over the top again. 

Btw. the revenge fleet works fine. No need to change that. The hunter allready have the advandtage to be able to jump missions and ow battles, plus invissiblity and sail against the wind.  Think it is a fair compromise. 

Think wood types may need a look in stats ore maybe where the are drop. Some wood are to powerful than others. If they not are going to be adjusted, maybe make them more avaible for all nations. But I doo like that you can build a ship that fits your need for your fighting style.

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, staun said:

In generally all have acces to the books and upgrades, they just drop to rare, maybe make more drops. Fine with a small rebalance, but lets us just not go over the top again. 

Btw. the revenge fleet works fine. No need to change that. The hunter allready have the advandtage to be able to jump missions and ow battles, plus invissiblity and sail against the wind.  Think it is a fair compromise. 

Think wood types may need a look in stats ore maybe where the are drop. Some wood are to powerful than others. If they not are going to be adjusted, maybe make them more avaible for all nations. But I doo like that you can build a ship that fits your need for your fighting style.

It's not fair because it's balancing on the extremes. You're saying because hunters can cheese noobs and PvErs that means revenge fleets are justified in cheesing the hunter with a 20:1 gank? That aint fun for either sides.

Meet somewhere in the middle, woods vary wildly in performance in the same way pvp happens. There should be less variation and more consistency.

 

 

 

[staun]

4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's not fair because it's balancing on the extremes. You're saying because hunters can cheese noobs and PvErs that means revenge fleets are justified in cheesing the hunter with a 20:1 gank? That aint fun for either sides.

Meet somewhere in the middle, woods vary wildly in performance in the same way pvp happens. There should be less variation and more consistency.

 

 

 

I belive is balanced fine right now. when it comes revengefleets. I am not a top PvP players, but in my experience the chance to get away is fine. If we got ganked every time we wouldn't keep going out. I would like how open battles works in the capital area changed. Just seams wrong that they can't spawn on top of you when they join late. Think they should have a join circle like in normal battles, but be open for joining.

[staun]

3 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

As I always say, instead of empty words let's make a test. My clan will make a revenge fleet on you, ok? Our revenge fleet success ratio is 80+% because we know how to do that and it's extremely easy. If you get away alive, I will admit you're either very skilled or/and revenge fleets is not a problem.

So it should be based on me. You want to change the rest of the games development based on me to. Think we should have a larger perspective, than just two players, when it comes to all more than two players play the game.

Edited June 8, 2018 by staun

[staun]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

We are testers and let's test game, ok? I claim scenario A, you claim scenario B. If you say revenge fleets is not an issue, you should be able to prove it, right?

Because: either you never hunt or face only noobs that have no clue how to organize a revenge fleet. 

1 in short, I hunt a bit. not much. Think I am out 1-2 a week with 1-3 other players. Who arrange the revenge fleet, I can't say.

2 As you your self have stated many times. You get away most of the time and if they want to catch you, they will have to chase you  for many battles. 

3 But again the change should not be based on 1-2 players but at a general picture. You claim ppl have to little chance to get away, and I say I belive it is fine right now. You have put up your opinion and I have made mine. In the end it is up to the developpers to make the change if it is needed. I just raise my voice because if they only see one side of it, they may think it is the general opinion. And by that said, my opinion can be wrong.

[Slim McSauce]

it's fine if you're comparing revenge fleet to jumping people's battles who may be new and PvEing and not fit for pvp. Both are very devastating in terms of morale cost to player. Neither of these things on their own are good and it's these extreme actions taking place that spoil PVP.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Guest]

1 hour ago, staun said:

Think wood types may need a look in stats ore maybe where the are drop. Some wood are to powerful than others. If they not are going to be adjusted, maybe make them more avaible for all nations.

naaah, the best wood types should be the one that you have to fight for for example; teak, white oak, live oak. I would honestly like them to put the trees where they realistically would grow, i.e. teak in rainforest areas, white oak up by the us coast etc. You shouldnt be able to get the most expensive stuff without working for it, or pay a good price for it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Guest
.

[staun]

1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

They only reason why is because I use mostly retarded speed meta fully stacked ships which I don't like, but I'm forced to use. I know for the fact DNP with Lars used that sort of ships for months, even fir-fir. Just ask darkjoker. 

I want both things fixed, not just one. Speed meta + revenge fleets.

We have sailed in fir fir ships. Will we do it again, maybe, all depends on what will have to the change from devs side. But for now think most of oure hunting ships are made of teak teak, but we have speed upgrades on it. I can honnestly say I can't remember when I last build a fir fir ship.

I still belive the chance are good of escaping. That can ofc change when there are more players playing. But for now I think it is fine. But as said I would like a rework on the reinforcement battle. It is simply plain wrong if you can join 10 min later and just and on top of the enemy.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

As I always say, instead of empty words let's make a test. My clan will make a revenge fleet on you, ok? Our revenge fleet success ratio is 80+% because we know how to do that and it's extremely easy. If you get away alive, I will admit you're either very skilled or/and revenge fleets is not a problem.

just need one 15.5 prince and lgv refit/frigate in the revenge fleet and the hunter cant escape. will eventually run into land

[staun]

1 minute ago, Wyy said:

naaah, the best wood types should be the one that you have to fight for for example; teak, white oak, live oak. I would honestly like them to put the threes where they realistically would grow, i.e. teak in rainforest areas, white oak up by the us coast etc. You shouldnt be able to get the most expensive stuff without working for it, or pay a good price for it.

In theory I would agree with you. The problem is the behavior of players. It is unfortnatly a game, so ppl can only spend a certain amount of time on it. I  do honnestly belive if it get to hard to replace the ship, ore players can only get a crappy ship, they will just stay out of the fights.  So imo it is a balance between fun gameplay and a hardcore game. But I agree you shouldn't have every thing handed for free.

[TrackTerror]

I would recommend to forget any balancing until the devs had the game featurecomplete with exception for tweaks that only requires changes to variables.

[Slim McSauce]

14 minutes ago, staun said:

We have sailed in fir fir ships. Will we do it again, maybe, all depends on what will have to the change from devs side. But for now think most of oure hunting ships are made of teak teak, but we have speed upgrades on it. I can honnestly say I can't remember when I last build a fir fir ship.

I still belive the chance are good of escaping. That can ofc change when there are more players playing. But for now I think it is fine. But as said I would like a rework on the reinforcement battle. It is simply plain wrong if you can join 10 min later and just and on top of the enemy.

It's only wrong if you're joining with a fleet twice the size of the one in battle. A 1.5x br swing in any direction is still a winnable fight no matter what. If you plan on jump ganking people this way it simply wouldn't be possible with a balancing ROE. Unless of course you where jumping in with a large fleet to reinforce someone who was already severely outmatched.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Wood and upgrade effects are fine, in my opinion. What needs a slight workover is the influence of ship size /weight on those boni. Meaning - the effect should not equal the one found on smaller ships equipped with same wood and upgrades.

Don't think this is difficult to implement. Just add growing malus in some stats as ship size increases. Will make anything below 3rd rate great again. As Bellonas with 15.5 knots are a bad joke. As much as I like the Bellona, that needs to be said.

[staun]

The right ship dropping magchically from the air, you can’t take that in to account, when you plan to fight. It can change the whole battle. Don’t think lottery should win a battle