A Re-take to Regional Bonuses

[Teutonic]

In the days where we fought over 1 port to control an entire region, where the "Strong Hull" regions were similar, if not better than the Cartaghena we have now. While I disliked the overpowering nature of some regional bonuses in the past I can't help but think that we lost a great opportunity to expand on it with the current RvR structure we have now. I am not saying we bring back all those regional bonuses because we now have them in the form of rare resources, and I believe that is alright for what it's worth.

I'm thinking more along the lines of economical improvements and incentives to both get out of the safe zones and create a reason to capture and hold multiple ports that we may otherwise not care about. I'd rather give the carrot that's on the stick than hit someone with a stick.

I would love to expand, improve, or change the following proposals I have in order to enhance RvR, crafting/trading and to bring more life to regions outside the safe zone. Find a purpose to actually using it instead of the "buy goods and bringing them back to our respective nation capitals" (nothing wrong with doing that though).

Regional bonuses Could be the following: I created the Poll for a quick view of suggestions I made, I go in more detail here. These bonuses would ONLY go into effect after a Nation controls all ports in a region (after downtime) and would be given instantly (clan does not need to manage it) the next day. If a Nation was to lose a port in the region, the Bonuses would be lost after downtime.

1. Port Maintenance reductions for the nation (clan port holders) when holding all ports in a region.

Simply put, if the nation owns all the ports within a region, the port owners get a reduction in maintenance costs. Could be 25%, could be 10% - the number can very. Clans and a Nation could find reason to work together to hold a regions ports that may otherwise be considered "useless" as they now may hold strategic value. Consequently this may increase RvR and Port Battle fighting as a clan or nation can disrupt this bonus by holding one port in the region. So it becomes a hotspot for conflict.

2. further increase in labor reduction/resource production bonuses.

the bonuses a clan can give (at the expense of higher maintenance) for ports they own to make their labor hours be more efficient as well as resources produced more (or faster) is really awesome, and I know of some people who do take advantage of these perks for ports outside the safezone. Possibly increasing this bonus even more when a Nation holds the whole region of ports could further point to giving better rewards for the risk (risk of having assets get locked by enemies when the port is taken away).

So if the bonus is 20% increase trade and 40% reduction in labor hour cost. The regional bonus could increase both by another 10%, making it 30% and 50% respectively. again, numbers could change if needed. if a clan does not have those bonuses active in the port, the regional bonus would just give them a 10% and 10% bonus respectively.

3. increase chances for better ship crafting (purple and gold ships more likely to be crafted).

Holding a Region should grant Crafters the ability to take advantage of the region's resources and manpower in order to construct powerful vessels. giving nations and clans another reason to capture the whole region. This bonus could be guaranteed or just a better chance to get the good ships. Again, an enemy nation or opposing clan could disrupt this bonus by taking just 1 port in a region.

4. increase in chances for better ship trims (like very fast, very cramped, very agile etc) as well as a way to "force" a ship trim possibly.

This goes in line with #3 as well and pretty much the same thing. Possibly allowing Crafters to regulate what trims on what ships, or just having a higher chance for better trims.

 

I know there are quite a few more that other folks could add, or on the opposite end, a few reasons for why this may be a bad idea. I'd love to hear either side of the argument

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Teutonic

[Angus MacDuff]

Add to that, regional capitols will buy goods at the same prices as national capitols.

[Fenris]

No. We had this and it didn`t work.

Ports won`t be more attractive if you give them regional bonuses. Try to understand why.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Please explain why.

[Fenris]

6 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Please explain why.

Becaus all i need to get the same bonuses as you do, is to activate my alt account, go to that port, open outpost and a shipyard.

Few months later we have same situation like before. Boredom.

"The rest is silence"....

[Fenris]

27 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Please explain why.

Something else..With taxation feature, some kind of economic warfare is possible. This just needs to be extended in a propper way. Port needs to be VALUABLE, needs to be SUPPLIED, and needs to GENERATE MONEY, needs TAXES from POPULATION, then it has a real VALUE.

Cut the supply, population goes down, TAXES go down, NATURAL DISASTERS, BLOCKADES, RAIDS, UPRISINGS, foreign PROPAGANDA, all these things might influence TAXATION.

Same in opposite direction..SUPPLY inhabitants with food, luxury stuff, POPULATION can be increased, and taxes go up, treat them well, they won`t follow enemy..and so on.

That is a real reason for a war, not a regional bonus, where every player can buy an "alt", open outpost and shipyard, and craft same ships as enemy.

Nations already now, fight for MONEY ports, not so much for teak/white oak ports. Why? Because money is still THE exchange medium for activities in the game.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Fenris

[Christendom]

23 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Becaus all i need to get the same bonuses as you do, is to activate my alt account, go to that port, open outpost and a shipyard.

Few months later we have same situation like before. Boredom.

"The rest is silence"....

Ok so let’s all stop RVR completely then.  Alts can do everything.  Why take any new ports, which is currently the issue.

@Teutonic‘s got some good idea here.  We need to breathe life into a dying RVR system where only 4-5 ports on an entire map of a couple hundred matter.  My only concern is that with 11 friggen nations not everyone will get a strong hull or the equivalent in this new system.  Then what?

Personally I think the chances of crafting a purple or gold ship should be zero if it wasn’t crafted in a player owned port.  An excellent way to get folks out of the safe zones.

To coincide with your proposed ideas I would also increase the cool down on attacking ports again after a defeat.  24 hours is not long enough and deters folks from setting up shop.  Also the cost and mats of the shipyards are a prohibiter.  

Edited May 9, 2018 by Christendom

[Fenris]

4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Why take any new ports, which is currently the issue

I wrote why. Upgrades,bonuses, whatever can be BOUGHT with ALTS. You can not erase them, and you can not forbid them.

Money and taxes are the key for RvR, not regional bonuses which we had already, or Cartagena Tar.

If you have a "strong hull" bonus  and i have the same bonus, what is the reason to attack that port, but only to..well, attack you? To have fun? You will never be able to motivate players again, cooking the same soup over and over again.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Fenris

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

1. Port Maintenance reductions for the nation (clan port holders) when holding all ports in a region.

Simply put, if the nation owns all the ports within a region, the port owners get a reduction in maintenance costs. Could be 25%, could be 10% - the number can very. Clans and a Nation could find reason to work together to hold a regions ports that may otherwise be considered "useless" as they now may hold strategic value. Consequently this may increase RvR and Port Battle fighting as a clan or nation can disrupt this bonus by holding one port in the region. So it becomes a hotspot for conflict.

The other day Marsh Harbor made 2 million and we paid 1 million in tax's.  I don't mind if our tax rate goes up as we make more money, like say we are paying the same 10% in maintenance as the tax in port and if you earn more you pay more but going from basically assuming you will make 1 mil and having a tax of 100K+ to doubling making it 50% of your profits is retarded.   We are getting taxed way to much on clan owned ports cause the devs think every one makes to much money.  The ports if you have a few good money making ports should pay for them self if you invested wisely if not every couple days if anything.   Though getting a bonus for owning the whole region would be nice too.

2. further increase in labor reduction/resource production bonuses.

the bonuses a clan can give (at the expense of higher maintenance) for ports they own to make their labor hours be more efficient as well as resources produced more (or faster) is really awesome, and I know of some people who do take advantage of these perks for ports outside the safezone. Possibly increasing this bonus even more when a Nation holds the whole region of ports could further point to giving better rewards for the risk (risk of having assets get locked by enemies when the port is taken away).

So if the bonus is 20% increase trade and 40% reduction in labor hour cost. The regional bonus could increase both by another 10%, making it 30% and 50% respectively. again, numbers could change if needed. if a clan does not have those bonuses active in the port, the regional bonus would just give them a 10% and 10% bonus respectively.

I think the labor reduction/resouce production is fine as it is so won't touch this one, they did boost it up a bit recently 10% too.

3. increase chances for better ship crafting (purple and gold ships more likely to be crafted).

Holding a Region should grant Crafters the ability to take advantage of the region's resources and manpower in order to construct powerful vessels. giving nations and clans another reason to capture the whole region. This bonus could be guaranteed or just a better chance to get the good ships. Again, an enemy nation or opposing clan could disrupt this bonus by taking just 1 port in a region.

Blue ships that are 3/5 should be all you get crafting ships in the safe/capital zones.  The purple and gold ships should only be able to craft out side the zones.   Give a reason for folks to own ports and craft out side the safe zones.  Than folks will still have to hull the supplies in and gives more player content like trade ships and escorts to hunt by other players.

4. increase in chances for better ship trims (like very fast, very cramped, very agile etc) as well as a way to "force" a ship trim possibly.

This goes in line with #3 as well and pretty much the same thing. Possibly allowing Crafters to regulate what trims on what ships, or just having a higher chance for better trims.

Keep the trims we have to the random roll in the safe zones, but any port owned out side of the zone gets a chance at the added perks that we see on the AI ships when we capture them (except shady of course).  Like said before give us a reason to own ports for better crafting.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Becaus all i need to get the same bonuses as you do, is to activate my alt account, go to that port, open outpost and a shipyard.

Few months later we have same situation like before. Boredom.

"The rest is silence"....

You know how you fix this?  Make it a clan only perk, only the clan that owns that port gets the perk so alts can't just pop in and use that port.  With that another suggestion we have brought up.

Add the optoin that clans can lock contracts to ports by either:  All Nation (I'm US so any US player can put a contract) or Friendly Clans only (Like PB list but clans will have friendly clan only list for trade) or open to all (auto setting if you set the port open to all).  This will limit the use of alts to go buy up goods from important ports owned by another nation.  You want those goods you fight for them or you get in buddy buddy with the clan in your nation that owns that port.  Your a solo player that wants those goods, tuff luck join a clan than.  Other wise the clan can bring back the goods and sail them in the safe zones for a marked up price to the folks that want to stay in them and not venture out into the big world.

[Sir Texas Sir]

23 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Ok so let’s all stop RVR completely then.  Alts can do everything.  Why take any new ports, which is currently the issue.

@Teutonic‘s got some good idea here.  We need to breathe life into a dying RVR system where only 4-5 ports on an entire map of a couple hundred matter.  My only concern is that with 11 friggen nations not everyone will get a strong hull or the equivalent in this new system.  Then what?

Personally I think the chances of crafting a purple or gold ship should be zero if it wasn’t crafted in a player owned port.  An excellent way to get folks out of the safe zones.

To coincide with your proposed ideas I would also increase the cool down on attacking ports again after a defeat.  24 hours is not long enough and deters folks from setting up shop.  Also the cost and mats of the shipyards are a prohibiter.  

This is how you make the perks not locked to a port or region.  If a clan owns a port they get a wider RNG chance of the Purple/Gold ships and the bonus perks that you can't get in the safe zones.  Safe zones all you can get are 3/5 ships with maybe the extra crafting perk.  Out side the safe zones you get a chance of the added perks that we for right now only see on captured AI ships (minus shady of course).  Maybe owning the whole region will give you an added RNG chance over owning one port in that region.  

[Fenris]

5 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Add the optoin that clans can lock contracts to ports by either

Less money, less taxes, port useless. Great idea.

As mentioned, if both of us have same things, why bother fighting for it. Btw, we would have even less players now, if alts wouldnt be able to buy Cartagena Tar, teak or white oak.. John Doe, not the player:) would say " screw this, they have best woods, best upgrade for thickness, i can not even buy it with my alt". quits the game.

Go figure.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Fenris

[Teutonic]

38 minutes ago, Fenris said:

I wrote why. Upgrades,bonuses, whatever can be BOUGHT with ALTS. You can not erase them, and you can not forbid them.

Money and taxes are the key for RvR, not regional bonuses which we had already, or Cartagena Tar.

If you have a "strong hull" bonus  and i have the same bonus, what is the reason to attack that port, but only to..well, attack you? To have fun? You will never be able to motivate players again, cooking the same soup over and over again.

I'm not asking for regions to have specific bonuses, I am suggesting that when a nation takes a region, ANY region, these are the bonuses that are applied. I am definitely not asking for "strong hull" to be back, and as i said, the rare resources already cover those types of bonuses through permanent upgrades.

Money and taxes are one portion of reasons for holding ports, that is why I'm suggesting these bonuses to be applied to regions once a nation takes the region ports to further grow ALL possible ways to make more money and to craft better or more efficiently.

When it comes to "why attack?" or "why do this if alts do it better."

why attack, why defend?

As an attacker, you can gain real value in knowing that once you take a port from a nation, where that nation has all ports in the region that you have effectively taken all these bonuses away. That is economical damage, that is damage to their resource production, it's damage to efficiency.

Why do this if alts do it better?

the alt argument is stale and basically can be placed for any and every mechanic to essentially say "we shouldn't do anything because "alts." I don't really care anymore. I don't have alts and I do just fine.

So what can an alt do here that take advantage of the situation? an alt in a nation with a region-wide own port area gains the bonuses here. big woop, everyone in the nation gains this advantage. What's stopping the alt's main from getting his nation to own their own region? nothing. honestly I don't see how an alt would take any more advantage of these suggestion than they already do by buying rare resources easier.. I would need a better explanation as to what an alt does to ruin all of this.

Money and Taxes.

you're right, RvR and money/taxes go hand in hand as to one of the big reasons why ports are fought over at this moment. The suggestions I bring up are meant to grow money and taxes AS WELL AS have attackers hurt money and taxes for all sides. Why should RvR only be based on money and taxes? These suggestions would help create a player market or player crafting outside a safe zone. It would make nations such as Sweden want to hold on to the entire Cartghena region for increased bonuses. It would further help clans like WO, or ROVER, or ALOHA be more inclined to fight over 1 port in a region to disrupt their enemy's crafting in certain regions. It would create meaning for all clans and nations who want these bonuses to go out and defend ports that are otherwise considered useless to many. It would create conflict in areas that otherwise would not see conflict, either due to again a useless port, or area of location.

I believe these suggestions would increase income and also taxes on all ports that are gained under this pretense.

 

EDIT: I do understand that a downside to this could be that a nation/clan focuses on only 1 region and they wouldn't "need" any more than that for these bonuses. But, we already have that with resources where we only need 2-4 ports depending on resource distribution to effectively create everything we ever wanted. I think the upside is that while nations only need 1 region to gain these bonuses, each nation can also "see" which region may be considered valuable, helping to create conflicts in areas and make it easier for folks to find each other.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Teutonic

[Teutonic]

@Sir Texas Sir

I believe you misunderstood me when it came to the tax reduction part (or I am misunderstanding you)

What I mean when you would gain the tax reduction bonus is if you paid 600k in maintenance (100k port + 500k timer) you would now only pay 450k (75k port + 375k timer) with a 25% maintenance reduction. This would effectively increase your income from that port, or lower the expense of the ports you own there.

[Kloothommel]

This actually a train of thought that shows promise!

Idea to add: Choose a regional trim in regional capital to build the ships with once your clan has a region complete. All regional trims are available in all regions so certain regions don't become inflated with value.

[z4ys]

If I remember correctly one big "NO" to regional trims was that people had to haul shipparts + (I am not sure if there was no need for a shipyard which made it kind of easier compared to today). So why would people sail their stuff to craft a ship with a specific trim? What changed to the try before?

Edited May 9, 2018 by z4ys

[Fenris]

7 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

the end of alts ruining RvR

Alts are not ruining RvR. RvR is ruining itself, because there is no real goal to achieve.

[Fenris]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

Alts are one of the factors, not the main one

Not at all. Make a real achievement in RvR, alts won`t matter.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Fenris said:

Less money, less taxes, port useless. Great idea.

As mentioned, if both of us have same things, why bother fighting for it. Btw, we would have even less players now, if alts wouldnt be able to buy Cartagena Tar, teak or white oak.. John Doe, not the player:) would say " screw this, they have best woods, best upgrade for thickness, i can not even buy it with my alt". quits the game.

Go figure.

Than you either become friends with that clan or you get it by buying it through some one that can buy it.  Remember I said clans can bring it back and sale it at the capital for a profit.  Why should an alt of some one that didn't fight for the port be able to come in and out bid every one and take the goods of a port that the clan worked very hard to capture (in most cases) and pays for the upkeep of. If your going to quit the game over that cause we just made it more of a players economy than sorry the game didn't need that player.  That player is some one that wants every thing the easy route.   

Oh and let you on a little secret.  I get Cart Tar all the time, but I don't get it from the port.  So it's not a deal breaker and I bet I pay way less than every one trying to buy it in that port.  There are other ways to get resources if you just get out of port.  Why should we support the freeloaders and alts?  

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

Make a option in the port tab: ports only available/open for the clans in the friendly list.

Consequence 1, the end of alts ruining RvR.

Consequence 2, clans not helping the nation dont take advantage-profit of your hard work. Internal politics (also called national unity) more important than ever.

I think that is a point a lot of us want to get a across.  Alts aren't ruining RvR they are messing the Player Economy up so folks are not supporting it as much as nations should be.  This is coming from some one with 5 chars in the game, but currently all mine are in the same nation (though two do have papers to switch if I wished too).  Though if I own a major resource port like Copper, Cart, WOODS than my clan should have first dibs at those resources without paying an arm and a leg to out bid some ones alt or some care bear that never leaves the safe zone but is rich as dirt. 

 

[Bach]

3 hours ago, Fenris said:

Something else..With taxation feature, some kind of economic warfare is possible. This just needs to be extended in a propper way. Port needs to be VALUABLE, needs to be SUPPLIED, and needs to GENERATE MONEY, needs TAXES from POPULATION, then it has a real VALUE.

Cut the supply, population goes down, TAXES go down, NATURAL DISASTERS, BLOCKADES, RAIDS, UPRISINGS, foreign PROPAGANDA, all these things might influence TAXATION.

Same in opposite direction..SUPPLY inhabitants with food, luxury stuff, POPULATION can be increased, and taxes go up, treat them well, they won`t follow enemy..and so on.

That is a real reason for a war, not a regional bonus, where every player can buy an "alt", open outpost and shipyard, and craft same ships as enemy.

Nations already now, fight for MONEY ports, not so much for teak/white oak ports. Why? Because money is still THE exchange medium for activities in the game.

You can probably avoid most of the "alt" issue if the bonuses ONLY apply to the clan owning the region.

[Bach]

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

But this is not good, very few clans can actually field entire port battles.

And what about those who help in screening or hostility?

 

No mate, my idea will work far better. A list for friendly clans that can take advantage of the port ressources.

That would work as well. Either way the clans that can become owning member can sell the ships with the bonuses to others and it creates a bit of an industry for the larger clans. More incentive to be a larger clan than to be a bunch of small clans mostly made up of ones own alts running around.

[Christendom]

5 hours ago, z4ys said:

If I remember correctly one big "NO" to regional trims was that people had to haul shipparts + (I am not sure if there was no need for a shipyard which made it kind of easier compared to today). So why would people sail their stuff to craft a ship with a specific trim? What changed to the try before?

Hauling ship parts = people on the water.  Not a bad thing.

[Bach]

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

Too much work for those clans providing ships to all the clans involved in the conquer.

How would it be to much work. They bring the parts and the labor contracts and you slap it together for them.  Less than 30sec for the owning clan.

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

Hauling ship parts = people on the water.  Not a bad thing.

I agree that people sailing is a good thing. But whenever we had mechanics that put people at sea they started to rage. "to time consuming" major "no" argument here. So why should it be different now?

Whenever we get mechanics that add a meaning to stuff people get mad.

[Vernon Merrill]

That’s basically the rub....  people want all the best stuff but can’t be arsed to work for it.  Unless you can get stuff via “missions”, some people will always claim that the game is “too hardcore”....

[Christendom]

All I know is back when we had the strong hull ports, ships were easy to produce and easy to sink.  No stupid OP mods.  We had more port battles going on with about the same population or less than we currently have daily.  RVR needs to mean something, or no one will do it.  

More folks sailing goods to ports to craft ships is exactly what we need.  More traffic and targets outside of the safe zone.  The fact that you can craft purple/gold ships inside the safe zone just astonishes me.  There is zero benefit to crafting outside of it now, other than labor hour reductions which can easily be mitigated with combat mark labor contracts.