Chain shot limitations - advanced warning

[OneEyedSnake]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Captains

Amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch (so called tutorial patch)
No perk will be required for use of chain (at least for now).

Reasons

• Historically ships carried A LOT less chain and grape compared to normal cannon balls. 
• Gameplay wise we want to bring more skill into chaining and limitation of chain will force players to conserve it, pick proper angles to destroy more sail and in general think about its use instead of current chainshot clicker heroes
• This also means that outnumbered players will have easier time fighting against bigger groups who rely on active chaining as the ONLY tactic. 

Please start thinking about new tactics and of course.... discuss. 

if we limit it due to historical reasons, we must also make it do the same thing historically. such as messing up rigging, taking much longer to fix and repair, snapping spars, etc. 

[Project Pluto]

37 minutes ago, admin said:

Nope
On average it was 5-10 chains and 100 cannon balls
 

Do you think 250 chain / 1000 grape/ 2500 ball would be a good start before resupply needed? We can't have 10 chain shot. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Project Pluto

[OneEyedSnake]

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

 Now with unlimited repairs and rum a stern rake does nothing. The wind means nothing with all the wind shifting. Positioning has less meaning because of wind shifting.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I almost never agree with this ragdoll. But I am now. think about that. 

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, RKY said:

It will only promote speed meta

Don't call speed a meta. Speed is not called a meta in racing games either. Speed/energy is arguably the most important thing in naval warfare. 

[Project Pluto]

19 minutes ago, admin said:

When replying to Christendom i think - i mentioned that of course limitations of chain will come with changes in their damage and tuning of repairs
The main goal is simple
Remove mindless chaining from any distance
Force the player to think when to shoot and at what angle. 

Look at the difference

• Hull damage has some tactical depth
• Raking and grape has a lot of tactical depth
• Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
  •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.

 

Then remove Chain and add it as a Trained skill with timer. 

-Enable / Shoot as much as you like/ wait for reset timer to use it again. 

Limiting one ammo type is not wise. 

[admin]

9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You cannot seriously mean that? Chaining is attacking an enemies ability to out maneuver you and to take his wind. Chaining ensures you have the sail advantage to get yourself into an tactical position to strike. Now with unlimited repairs and rum a stern rake does nothing. The wind means nothing with all the wind shifting. Positioning has less meaning because of wind shifting. You cannot make these changes to combat system and say its more hardcore. Naval action used to be hardcore. It isn't hardcore anymore. 

Wind changes happened. Due to in game time scale they happen a bit less than once a day (which is normal).
Wind change makes speed less relevant - as we want you to not run but fight. If you don't plan to run - wind change brings variety.
Constitution ran away because of the wind change

For chain there is no tactical depth becuase you just click fire by KD. Tactical depth in shooting

Limited chain is a win win feature. There are no losers
If you plan to fight and you fit for strong rig it will be harder to chain you non stop
If you plan to run, if you really really want to run limited chain will actually make running easier.

 

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Wind changes happened.

Due to in game time scale they happen once a day (which is normal).
Wind change makes speed less relevant - as we want you to not run but fight. If you don't plan to run - wind change brings variety.
But limited chain will actually make running easier.

And making running easier is good why?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RKY said:

Just watch reverse's wasa: Bermuda/fir

elite Spanish rig refit

navy hull

Copper plate

 

treatise on square sail

art of ship

optimized ballast

study sail

Combat carpenter

 

That is no naval warfare, that is an abomination.

 

 

Do he still carry 4pds?

 

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Capt Trashal Early said:

And making running easier is good why?

We did not say it will be always easier, skilled opponents will still stop you and sink you.

But If your enemy is

• Not agressive (you can outrepair damage)
• Cannot pick the right time for shooting and cannot aim (miss a lot or shoot into already damaged sails)
• Wastes shot 

They dont deserve you as a target just because they can shoot unlimited chain

[Christendom]

5 minutes ago, RKY said:

Just watch reverse's wasa: Bermuda/fir

elite Spanish rig refit

navy hull

Copper plate

 

treatise on square sail

art of ship

optimized ballast

study sail

Combat carpenter

 

That is no naval warfare, that is an abomination.

 

 

And the key part is he is almost never alone and very rarely outgunned.  Now it's naval gank action now with the ability to outrun revenge fleets because they run out of chain.  

 

@admin if you want to make this really dynamic you will make chain shot a resource like hull/rig reps.  Once you're out, you're out and you must replenish in port or loot.  Otherwise this will just become an endless cycle of tagging, running in battle, re-tagging, running in battle     rise repeat.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Christendom

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 minute ago, admin said:

We did not say it will be always easier, skilled opponents will still stop you and sink you.

But If your enemy is

• Not agressive (you can outrepair damage)
• Cannot pick the right time for shooting and cannot aim (miss a lot or shoot into already damaged sails)
• Wastes shot 

They dont deserve you as a target just because they can shoot unlimited chain

I still dont get it. Running is already easy. 

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

Limited chain is a win win feature. There are no losers
If you plan to fight and you fit for strong rig it will be harder to chain you non stop
If you plan to run, if you really really want to run limited chain will actually make running easier.

Don't get me wrong. Limited chain is great! It's just pointless because repairs are not limited

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

So you think 6v1 will make a difference if the have limited chain? They still have 6 times more chain than you. 

Well they might run out of chain and he just keeps repairing, but than I would of gone for demasting instead, but since you get 100% HP back to mast every repair that is a pain too.  Though in most 6 vs 1 he should of been dead depending the ships, but than we have some pretty bad players out there (in my nation included as the most) those 6 also might be completely sunk...lol

1 hour ago, Capt Trashal Early said:

#epicsareruined

How the hello kitty are we gonna do epics now? 

I done plenty and we rarely shoot sails.   Get one/two guys to kite half the group away from the rest, than you sink them one at a time when you get them spread out.  Portect any that get damage until they heal up and back into the fight.  They are to fast and mast to strong to try to slow down.

 

Back on topic I think we should bring back the repair limits per battle.  Say give every one 5 repairs to use in battle so you will have to save them.   Now this will hurt in Epics as I tank the AI to gain agro to protect others and can blow through a lot of repairs, but other wise all folks will do is tank your chain until you run out than pop a repair and run.  If they didn't use all there chain they can now chain you down as they run from you.

 

@admin some of the perks should honestly be gained as you level up instead of being perk points.  Maybe have Chain something you learn out of the first tutorial and than you get double ball and charge shorting after that as you level up.  The perks system really needs an update.  Crafting perks should be tied to Crafting rank not combat and so forth.

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

@admin some of the perks should honestly be gained as you level up instead of being perk points.  Maybe have Chain something you learn out of the first tutorial and than you get double ball and charge shorting after that as you level up.  The perks system really needs an update.  Crafting perks should be tied to Crafting rank not combat and so forth.

Yes it should be reworked
But it will be done after localization. Which is more important for online new players (just like a nice friendly community that random players who stumble onto the forum want to stay in)

[Cabral]

 Let's test limited chains before criticizing. Pina Colada I hope you are happy now  

[Teutonic]

6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Don't get me wrong. Limited chain is great! It's just pointless because repairs are not limited

that's the big thing here that I hope gets across.

Admin has stated they will look into fine tuning repairs, or limiting them...

Limiting chain shot and keeping unlimited repairs is not going to give the desired outcome that the Admin wants, that is my opinion. I hope it doesn't become reality but past experience has shown otherwise.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Teutonic

[Sir Texas Sir]

Just now, Teutonic said:

that's the big thing here that I hope gets across.

Admin has stated they will look into fine tuning repairs, or limiting them, but past experience leads me to want to keep hammering that:

Limiting Chain shot and keeping unlimited repairs is not going to work. Simple

And it's not hard for us to test it and than find that sweet spot of how many should be allowed per battle.  We did this with the cool down and I actually think the cool downs are good right now.  So lets come up with what is the average repairs used in battles and pick a number. I can see popping any where from 5-10 repairs in a fight so lets try it out with 5 and than maybe bump it up or bring back that perk that allowed two repairs instead of one, but in this cause it gives you two extra repairs for a total of 7.

[John Jacob Astor]

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

As if all those tanky built ships care about speed theses days. Speed and the battle for the wind are dead in this game now...  Limiting repairs would solve alot of the retarded over the top full tank metas there are these days. The combat was better of with fewer repairs and made battles more tactical. We used to duel for 2 hours back in the past and battles were interesting. One  mistake and it was gg. Now it's get close do damage and out dps and out repair your enemy. Here is what should be tested for once. Stop wind shifting and limit repairs. I think the combat would improve a lot. 

As a trader I actually DO care about the effect of the load on my speed.  Repairs compete directly with cargo and 100% loading is rather a bad idea.

[DeRuyter]

For anyone questioning where this idea came from it has been discussed before, see this thread:

 

For the historical context @Fluffy Fishy posted numbers on the HMS Victory in that thread:

Figures for HMS Victory:
Round, 32pdr: 2400.
Round, 24pdr: 2800
Round, 12pdr: 4200
Round, 68pdr Carronade: 84
Grape, 32pdr: 90
Grape, 24pdr: 112
Grape, 12prd: 168
Grape, 68pdr carronade: 7 Case shot, 7 Grape in tin.
Double headed (Chain/Bar), 32pdr: 90
Double headed, 24 pdr: 84
Double headed, 12pdr: 126
Paper cartridge (Gunpowder), 32pdr: 2580
Paper cartridge, 24pdr: 2996
Paper cartridge, 12pdr: 4728

From my post on the USS Constitution:

In 1797 she carried 85 round shot per 24 lb gun and 15 chain per 24 lb gun. In 1813 she carried 100 round and 40 chain. I also note that no chain was carried for the carronades by either ship. Each navy had different standard load outs of specialist shot.

Obviously now we have multiple repairs so that will have to be balanced, but @admin has already noted that will happen. The announcement is about limiting chain shot and does not even talk about how much chain shot you get, yet the doomsayers are out in force. At least wait and see how it effects your game play before ranting about the change.

 

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

And it's not hard for us to test it and than find that sweet spot of how many should be allowed per battle.  We did this with the cool down and I actually think the cool downs are good right now.  So lets come up with what is the average repairs used in battles and pick a number. I can see popping any where from 5-10 repairs in a fight so lets try it out with 5 and than maybe bump it up or bring back that perk that allowed two repairs instead of one, but in this cause it gives you two extra repairs for a total of 7.

apologies for editing the previous post - but I agree.

I'm all for finding the balance, but I dislike the seemingly knee-jerk reactions.

in the past it's been the following:

1. Devs make multiple changes to the game in the past big patches
2. Players give feedback and say "we didn't like this, but A and B are ok and I feel we should work with it."
3. Devs come back and say "since you didn't like the changes we are going to scrap it and do something else."

To name one example, alliances/diplomacy. We gave feedback saying generally "it's not in the right place but we do want to expand on it, lets try this or that." and what we got was it just being thrown out and here we are now. To some degree that may be the Admin finally figuring out what they really want this game to be for them, but to a number of players it was just seen as wasting "time."

[z4ys]

Why is nobody talking about that small ships won't gank big ones anymore? ^^

[Christendom]

6 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

For anyone questioning where this idea came from it has been discussed before, see this thread:

 

For the historical context @Fluffy Fishy posted numbers on the HMS Victory in that thread:

Figures for HMS Victory:
Round, 32pdr: 2400.
Round, 24pdr: 2800
Round, 12pdr: 4200
Round, 68pdr Carronade: 84
Grape, 32pdr: 90
Grape, 24pdr: 112
Grape, 12prd: 168
Grape, 68pdr carronade: 7 Case shot, 7 Grape in tin.
Double headed (Chain/Bar), 32pdr: 90
Double headed, 24 pdr: 84
Double headed, 12pdr: 126
Paper cartridge (Gunpowder), 32pdr: 2580
Paper cartridge, 24pdr: 2996
Paper cartridge, 12pdr: 4728

From my post on the USS Constitution:

In 1797 she carried 85 round shot per 24 lb gun and 15 chain per 24 lb gun. In 1813 she carried 100 round and 40 chain. I also note that no chain was carried for the carronades by either ship. Each navy had different standard load outs of specialist shot.

Obviously now we have multiple repairs so that will have to be balanced, but @admin has already noted that will happen. The announcement is about limiting chain shot and does not even talk about how much chain shot you get, yet the doomsayers are out in force. At least wait and see how it effects your game play before ranting about the change.

 

It's also important to note that chain was not really used that often and at very close ranges.  Far closer than what in-game ranges are.  Round shot was more effective against sails/rigging than it currently is in game.  

I personally like the idea of limiting chain, but repairs needs to far more restricted.  

[z4ys]

16 minutes ago, Christendom said:

...

we just have to keep in mind that the game is speed up compared to rl (talking about cannon reloadtime). So sticking to real data without scaling might be wrong. I hope devs consider that and dont use rl data and apply it 1to1 to the game.

[Stilgar]

Good move. A long due. 

Why not do smth similar to double charge and double shot? For example, about 2 broadsides of both double shot and double charge ammo should be available by default. Double charge and double shot perks could still be in game with the effect of doubling the ammo for corresponding shot type. (this would bring total ammo to 4 broadside per type, as it is now with perks)

[jodgi]

55 minutes ago, admin said:

We did not say it will be always easier, skilled opponents will still stop you and sink you.

Wooo! admin is on fire today!

SerB was a controversial figure, but I liked him: