Ramming - Honorable or Dispicable

[Magnum]

Is intentional ramming, or shaving off the bowsprit of an opponent "just part of the game" or is it an underhanded crime that should brand the perpetrator an outlaw if they keep it up?

 

I'm not talking about the occasional crunch during close quarter combat - but targeting either a smaller ship or the bowsprit of a larger ship.

 

The targeting would be what would make it a crime - not the occasional inadvertent mis-steering accedent

 

Unless you all think it is just part of the play and any who don't like it should "get over it".

 

 

Keep in mind - it could be one of the paths to PIRATE!

[Flip]

All's fair in love and war.

[Magnum]

I think it should be outlawed - and if a Captain continues to practice it, the community can put pressure on him or her.

[Crankey]

I believe that ramming should not be censored, but its impact on both rammer and rammed 'at spead' should be at much higher risk of damage to both than is currently the case.

 

Masts going by the board, smaller vessels heeling over or possibly foundering etc. Obviously the size of ships involved, the angle and speed of the collision should have varying effects.

[Kanay]

I didn't played enough to get a definitive position on this but how i see it for now is that it's not something correct that i will do when ships are still in a very good shape, however when you are already done and ready to sink a last attempt to finish with honor and attempt to damage the enemy will be acceptable, same thing to finish a ship ready to sink ( at your own risks ).

 

I have in mind the open world where this last one could be a very dangerous move to try if you are far from any port , same thing for a guy ready to sink and ramming the enemy, this could be a lethal last hit reducing greatly his capacities for a while.

 

I was rammed only once by a bot for now, didn't rammed anybody and didn't played much yet, but for now that's how i see it, i will not like to see many players trying to ram each other with ships in perfect conditions and this becoming a way of fighting but when one ship is not far from sinking and all hopes are lost yes i think it's viable, from my newcomer point of view, it might change in the future.

 

PS : the pool should have a third option for guys like me

[Pheasent Plucker]

Ramming is part of the game, for example i forced my ship into the front of a victory (was in surprise) to knock off his front sail and stop him in the water which gave us a win,

 

I got away but he did one volley on my side and it cost me my ship but it was a noble and honorable sacrifice,

 

Ramming has always been a part of naval warfare for thousands of years eg: the greeks and romans were full time rammers.

 

Removing it just so you can sit back and sip your tea as you send volley after volley at small ships and laugh at the weak attempts to dammage you, then you sir have no respect.

 

Thats my two cents.

[NorthernWolves]

I'm going to have to say I'm very surprised this many people think it should be outlawed. Outlawed? What does that mean? Is this NYC where they outlawed sodas over a certain size?

Think of it what you will (and I NEVER intentionally ram unless I am going down anyway) but as I have referenced before in a long thread on this very subject, Nelson himself rammed during Trafalgar and he is the epitome of naval honor.

I get rammed all the time and more often than not the smaller ship hurts himself and not me. I never get mad or think the player is dirty, he has just shown himself to be tactically naive, unless it's his last move and it's all he's got.

 

Once it becomes costly to ram and condemn your own ship to sinking in the open world, when a striking of colors or simply avoiding a ram and staying afloat will make much more sense, you will see it happen a lot less than it is in the sea trial world of 100% sinking and where sinking equals victory.

 

Ramming wasn't considered craven in the age of Roman, Egyptian and Greek navies. It wasn't dishonorable in the age of ironclads, it just made tactical sense to do it, so it was done.

 

The only reason it didn't happen a lot in the age of sail because it didn't make sense, but when it did, as with Nelson in the Victory at Trafalgar, it was done.

Ampaholic, I have agreed with you on a lot, but not this one.

 

I am not for the 'outlawing' of a tactic that actually happened in warfare.

[eXnihilo]

Ramming is legit. Good way to sink yourself too.

 

In real naval warfare they would even send in ships that were on fire... honourable?

 

All is fair...

[Magnum]

.....

 

The only reason it didn't happen a lot in the age of sail because it didn't make sense, but when it did, as with Nelson in the Victory at Trafalgar, it was done.

Ampaholic, I have agreed with you on a lot, but not this one.

 

I am not for the 'outlawing' of a tactic that actually happened in warfare.

 

I usually agree with you as well, I just am trying to see this in a game play vs. realism light

 

IF - and it's a GIANT "IF" we played this game at the same speed as real battles took place - I would say go ahead ram me all you want, because in the two and a half hours it takes you to get from "sail ho" to ramming if I haven't OBLITERATED you with my cannons or turned and run - I deserve what I get.

 

However for the sake of sanity, we play at compressed speed and an opponent can easily ram you while you are firing your other side.

 

I don't think it is as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. I think it would help the ENJOYABILITY for everyone if it was not a very common tactic at all. If it takes making collisions more damaging I would be fine with that.

[Magnum]

Ramming is legit. Good way to sink yourself too.

 

In real naval warfare they would even send in ships that were on fire... honourable?

 

All is fair...

 

Well no Sarin Gas isn't "fair", killing prisoners isn't "fair" - well at least according to the Geneva Conventions.

 

Fire ship were used - but people had time to get out of their way, they were there own warning

[Prater]

Now here is a question. Is it honorable to force a ram? I don't know that I have ever intentionally rammed, but if someone is trying to rake me there are times that I have forced them to ram me by depowering my sails and removing the room they thought they had to get on my stern. Ram's video of his 1v1 with me is case and point.

[Robert de Keith]

I don't ram I, side scrape it's unavoidable sometimes .

But I will ram if I estimate that it is best for the squadron.

And some of those ramming events look awesome. Aye

[BBrown]

I don't think he meant literally outlawed as in removed or censored. I think he just meant through public opinion is it something that one feels should be frowned upon or accepted. And my answer is both really for the shear fact that the ones that utilize ramming as a battle tactic when the situation requires it, of course are going to accept it, and others who try to avoid it regardless of the situation are going to frown upon it. For me it all depends on the situation. Ramming the enemy's ship to break their bowsprit I see as perfectly acceptable because of the sacrifice one has to take in order to achieve this. As Plucker mentioned, he employed this tactic in order for his squadron to gain the advantage. A tactic that both worked, and cost him his ship. It requires great sacrifice (and virtual bravery ) in order to achieve this especially in a smaller vessel than your enemy and that is the side of the matter that I am perfectly ok with. Something I am NOT ok with, and what I frown upon, is when a larger ship rams a smaller one This is referring to a deliberate ramming of the smaller ship's hull in order to induce more damage than is recoverable. Again, the ramming of the enemy's bowsprit I see as an acceptable tactic regardless of the ship size, however I still find it annoying if a larger ship employs these tactics on a smaller ship.

[Tagera]

If you're in a small ship and you get rammed. That just means you just failed a prow rake usually. The bigger ships tend to have a lot more turn time then the small ships. Case in point being in two different matches in a row I failed to successfully get out of the way of bigger ships while doing a prow rake. My shots were successful, my sailing to break contact from their direction of travel was not. Both times my Cutter go plowed under, capsized and went down.

[BBrown]

Right, but that is an accidental ram. I am talking about intentional ramming by larger ships. If you fail to get out of the way, that's your fault not the other ship's.

[Master_Scrub]

Ramming is a valid tactic.  Nothing more or less.  And I should disclose that I am a real fan of ramming, and do it when the situation presents itself.  Done at the right time, it can be very effective, for instance, when a ship that is near dead, rams a much more healthy ship, causing it either heavy damage or to be sunk.  I sometimes wonder about this concept of honour in video games.  In real life there is honour.  In video games there is fun.  

[RAMJB]

I think it's a problem of the TDM we have now.

 

Ramming is not just bad practice, in many instances I've seen it "used" in game it's totally unrealistic too. But people do it because that way they can "sink that bigger ship" thus "helping their team to win". What they never account for is that doing that they just erased themselves from the battle aswell, and in most cases in the end their own team loses more than what they win.

Once open sea is released and those guys realize that intentionally ramming someone almost guarantees losing your own ship in the process, the whole thing will come mostly to a stop for very much the same reasons as it wasn't intentionally done IRL: ramming was extremely dangerous for the ship doing it, structural damage induced by a ram on a ship not stressed for it would cause very expensive to repair damages (if not warping the structure as much as to make the ship more expensive to repair than what it's actually worth on itself), if not the downright loss of it in the middle of a battle, and one way or another you'll pay for the consequences after the battle making it so unprofitable as to make it very very rare.

 

Right now you don't...but the "pro rammers" are in for a rude awakening once that stuff starts mattering .

[Magnum]

Hey, Northern Wolves knows I am not above a slow slide down his side while I shoot my cannons off, and I have sunk friend and enemy by accidentally running them over - so I could be called a rammer now and then. I just don't plan my mission 1. chain 2. ram 3. hope to be alive to win.

 

B.Brown is correct I am not thinking it should be grounds for anything more than a "tsk tsk, is that all you know how to do?" or perhaps a "jeese man, your getting a bit too serious, this is just a game"

 

But the vote will tell.

[LordBlowtorch]

I must admit I've bumped into a few allies by accident, I always try to say sorry, and also had other allies bump into me, its to be expected in the lower Lynx>>Snow range as people get used to navigating

As for the enemy, anything goes, our guild motto has always been 'Whatever it takes to win, we'll do it', thats just how we roll

[PrezesOi]

Ramming drama thread No#4537. Booooring.

 

Ramming is now (after many changes that weaken it) so risky that it has ... become realistic. Now it still in use but only when it makes sense, bearing in mind that in most cases, this means suicide and minimal damage to the opponent.

 

Like Prater said - currently more usable than ramming is forcing enemy to ram you. I call this bowsprit kiss.

[Marik]

I don't like to do it on or with full and healthy ships, unless I'm sinking and have a chance of capturing or hurting the other player before I go down.  However, I don't think it should be outlawed, as it kinda is a somewhat valid tactic. However, I'd hate to see it become overly used - I'm with those above that think more damage should be had by the ships collision - especially possible mast/sail damage and masts breaking off (and not just the bow sprit).

 

So should be something doable, but not so op that it becomes a main battle tactic...

 

Marik

[BBrown]

Ramming is a valid tactic.  Nothing more or less.  And I should disclose that I am a real fan of ramming, and do it when the situation presents itself.  Done at the right time, it can be very effective, for instance, when a ship that is near dead, rams a much more healthy ship, causing it either heavy damage or to be sunk.  I sometimes wonder about this concept of honour in video games.  In real life there is honour.  In video games there is fun.  

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a VALID tactic. It's most definitely not a valid tactic. That's not to say that in certain situations it doesn't become valid. But to go ram someone right out of the gate or because they are in a smaller ship is cowardly, and a major cheap shot.

 

I think it's a problem of the TDM we have now.

 

Ramming is not just bad practice, in many instances I've seen it "used" in game it's totally unrealistic too. But people do it because that way they can "sink that bigger ship" thus "helping their team to win". What they never account for is that doing that they just erased themselves from the battle aswell, and in most cases in the end their own team loses more than what they win.

Once open sea is released and those guys realize that intentionally ramming someone almost guarantees losing your own ship in the process, the whole thing will come mostly to a stop for very much the same reasons as it wasn't intentionally done IRL: ramming was extremely dangerous for the ship doing it, structural damage induced by a ram on a ship not stressed for it would cause very expensive to repair damages (if not warping the structure as much as to make the ship more expensive to repair than what it's actually worth on itself), if not the downright loss of it in the middle of a battle, and one way or another you'll pay for the consequences after the battle making it so unprofitable as to make it very very rare.

 

Right now you don't...but the "pro rammers" are in for a rude awakening once that stuff starts mattering .

I am in full agreement with this. Right now there is this discussion if ramming is valid. But that's only because of the deathmatch scenario we are given. Once the open world gets added ramming will become non existent, if not then an act of desperation by a ship that's far too damaged to flee but has the opportunity to serve up one last blow. I myself, have never rammed a player intentionally nor do I plan to do so. As both you and I mentioned it comes at a great cost, and usually ends up costing far more than is gained.

[Alex Connor]

Ramming as implemented currently is pretty realistic. Larger ships running down and sinking smaller ones, rigging damage from collisions. Should be outlawed? No. Discouraged? Yes...

 

Basically make it hurt more to ram someone than to be rammed. Someone made a point about greek and roman ships ramming and tactics around that, but these sailing ships are not designed for ramming. Hit something of comparable size at high speed and you will stove in your own bow, probably lose your bowsprit and foremast, not unheard of to be completely dismasted by the shock of ramming another ship. Yes, you will hole the enemies hull, cause them flooding, but you will have similar damage to your own hull plus a much greater chance of losing masts and rigging damage in general.

 

Low speed collisions, a bit different. Here, more likely to tangle rigging than break it outright, and limited hull damage. And again, you don't want to be the one ramming. Tangle your bowsprit in someone's masts and you are now trapped bow on against their broadside while they rake you until you can break free. Its not all good for the one being rammed though, both parties have a (limited) chance to board in this scenario.

 

If one ship is significantly bigger than the other it is likely to come off better, for example a frigate can run down a cutter, probably not even losing its bowsprit as at present, but at the same time this has a good chance of stoving in the frigates bow planking, causing damage that cannot be properly repaired at sea and forcing the frigate to stop or sail slowly to manage the intake of water.

 

Also, badly damaged ships should be pretty much unmanagable and slow moving, unable to ram someone hard enough to cause serious damage. Would eliminate the "last ditch suicide ram", which is a very unrealistic tactic anyway.

[Thomas Blackwell]

I don't think ramming will be as popular in the fully released game as it is in the Alpha. Remember, people don't lose anything with the loss of their ship... yet.

[Crankey]

I don't think ramming will be as popular in the fully released game as it is in the Alpha. Remember, people don't lose anything with the loss of their ship... yet.

 

Tom has the same point here I was trying to make above. We are only testing the battle situations, we have no idea what damage will cost us in game terms, until we are testing dockside and recruitment features as yet not released.

 

Remember that the Rammer will always be bow on, which would put tremendous strain on his/her masts when impact takes place, saying goodbye to potentially all standing mast sections.. 

 

I would hope that aside from boarding attempts, or trying to removing someones bowsprit for the very brave captain. 'Ramming' should be a decision a captain never takes lightly unless they are commanding a Trireme !