Changing the permanent mods to level the playing field

[vazco]

4 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

An Aga with 7k HP at 13knts sounds like cancer. Mods are definitely not in a finished state whatsoever.

Sure, it is a cancer. If you sail out against me in such an Aga, you will die quickly (even quicker than from a cancer). If you send such a fleet against Prussia in PB, you will die quickly as well.

Again, sail mods are OP. Those probably will be adjusted. Other mods  for 1-5 rates - not so much.

You want to complain about OP, complain about Poods.

Edited February 23, 2018 by vazco

[Percival Merewether]

I have a pretty good example of a ridiculous Aggy build here, it was actually this particular build that made me create this thread.

 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, vazco said:

Sure, it is a cancer. If you sail out against me in such an Aga, you will die quickly (even quicker than from a cancer). If you send such a fleet against Prussia in PB, you will die quickly as well.

Again, sail mods are OP. Those probably will be adjusted. Other mods  for 1-5 rates - not so much.

You want to complain about OP, complain about Poods.

Yeah no, I'm not buying that that should even be possible. I would never fight someone in a 13knt 7k 40% repair 4th rate. You'd be pretty much forced to board or just constantly be kited and repaired on. Even if you get him down he runs up wind and good luck catching him when he can repair sails 2x faster than you.

[Slim McSauce]

6 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I have a pretty good example of a ridiculous Aggy build here, it was actually this particular build that made me create this thread.

 

CANCER. SUCH CANCER. I'M SAVING THIS PHOTO FOR ANYONE WHO TELLS ME MODS ARE FIXED.

this is actually ridiculous.

@admin quell this unholy monstrosity from our world.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[Percival Merewether]

9 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I have a pretty good example of a ridiculous Aggy build here, it was actually this particular build that made me create this thread.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

CANCER. SUCH CANCER. I'M SAVING THIS PHOTO FOR ANYONE WHO TELLS ME MODS ARE FIXED.

Should also be noted that Optimized Ballast and Light Carriages only account for about .25 knots, so could be 13.75 OW with repair mods and/or perhaps slightly slower with 7k HP.

I made this build to prove a point - I think I did.. mods are still a problem, especially because of the built-in 'very fast' modifier and the extra two permanent upgrades.

[vazco]

Just now, Slim Jimmerson said:

Yeah no, I'm not buying that that should even be possible. I would never fight someone in a 13knt 7k 40% repair 4th rate. You'd be pretty much forced to board or just constantly be kited and repaired on. Even if you get him down he runs up wind and good luck catching him when he can repair sails 2x faster than you.

Do you even know what you're talking about?  An Aga can have 7k side armour without any mods. If you stack Carpenter reports, Carpenters, Northern Carpenters and Steel toolbox, you will get 10% more repair,  using up 4 slots, which you could use much better.

1 minute ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

CANCER. SUCH CANCER. I'M SAVING THIS PHOTO FOR ANYONE WHO TELLS ME MODS ARE FIXED.

Navy Lodsman doesn't work in battle, it's useless (and here it adds approx. 0,8 knot). Trim speed lowers your turn rate and sail health (-10%). 76 thickness can be penetrated with 9pd guns (class 6) from 250 meters, or 18pd guns (class 4) from 500 meters in good alignment.

Elite Spanish is very OP, so are Poods.

Noone will sail such a ship in a standard fight, you get 5 slot ship maybe once every 50 times.

Mods are not fixed, however stacking is not an issue.

[Slim McSauce]

@vazco That's the point, this isn't even the best of the best he could've done and it's still on a fantasy levels of unrealistic speed/armor. 

If a ship with these mods can be 2x better than one without than there is a serious problem. The power game is too strong.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[Percival Merewether]

3 minutes ago, vazco said:

Navy Lodsman doesn't work in battle, it's useless (and here it adds approx. 0,8 knot).

Very true, but Navy Loodsman combined with Elite Spanish is OP, and the rigging specialist makes up for the sail health loss and adds to the repair % making the speed trim safe to use.

+you can use optimised rudder instead of light carriages. Art of Ship Handling is also enough to make up for the turn loss.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[vazco]

Just now, Percival Merewether said:

Very true, but Navy Loodsman combined with Elite Spanish is OP

They don't work together. Navy Lodsman works only in OW, Elite works only in battles.

Try this build:

• Cartagena
• Navy Structure
• Elite Spanish
• British Gunnery Sergeant
• Elite Northern Carpenters

 

• Gunnery Encyclopedia
• Ship Handling
• Carpenter reports
• Light blocks and ropes
• Book of 5 rings

 

This would be a very powerful build, however it would require you to risk a very expensive and unique ship (I guess there's no such a ship on the server yet). Noone would sail such a ship. It wouldn't also use stacking, just powerful mods.

Even this build could be neutralized easily - it's enough if someone sails upwind from you, or if two players chain and board you. 

 

[Percival Merewether]

1 minute ago, vazco said:

They don't work together. Navy Lodsman works only in OW, Elite works only in battles.

If you use both they're roughly equal to 2 x 2,5% speed mods by adding 5% extra speed in battle and 5% extra in OW. Of course they're OP together the sail force mods should change sailing profile only, not max speed.

5 minutes ago, vazco said:

ild, however it would require you to risk a very expensive and unique ship (I guess there's no such a ship on the server yet). Noone would sail such a ship. It wouldn't also use stacking, just powerful mods.

Even this build could be neutralized easily - it's enough if someone sails upwind from you, or if two players chain and board you. 

I can make that build now apart from the Master Northern Carpenters. And yes, of course any ship can be beaten provided the captain is bad and/or there are enough opponents. When repair stacking was beneficial you could still kill the ships

The point is that these mods provide the player with an advantage that is impossible to compete with assuming both captains are of equal skill.

[vazco]

20 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I can make that build now apart from the Master Northern Carpenters. And yes, of course any ship can be beaten provided the captain is bad and/or there are enough opponents. When repair stacking was beneficial you could still kill the ships

The point is that these mods provide the player with an advantage that is impossible to compete with assuming both captains are of equal skill.

It's not an issue if from time to time (every 50 ships and after spending 2-3 books) a player will be able to craft a ship which gives him even eg. 30% advantage over an equal enemy. He can still be sunk by 1.3 number of players of his skills, and rarity of his ship makes it not relevant in RvR.

You should rather compare 3/5 ships with 0-1 elite upgrades (instead of 5/5 ships). Those are builds used in PvP and PB. In those builds stacking is really not a big issue (unless new meta appears, which I don't know of).

Edited February 23, 2018 by vazco

[Percival Merewether]

1 minute ago, vazco said:

It's not an issue if from time to time (every 50 ships and after spending 2-3 books) a player will be able to craft a ship which gives him even eg. 30% advantage over an equal enemy. He can still be sunk by 1.3 player of his skills, and rarity of his ship makes it not relevant in RvR.

You should rather compare 3/5 ships with 0-1 elite upgrades (instead of 5/5 ships). Those are builds used in PvP and PB. In those builds stacking is really not a big issue (unless new meta appears, which I don't know of).

I and many others use 4/5 and if lucky 5/5 ships in PvP daily. After the RNG patch I have not sailed a ship without at least 1 extra build-in mod or slot + Copper and Cartagena (Apart from a weird fetish I have atm with Mahogany/Crew Space Renomees from the AI shop). I roughly lose a ship every 2nd-3rd day but it doesn't seem like much of a problem for me to get replacements since I keep a good amount in reserve in KPR.

There is no point whatsoever in not using a 5/5 ship for PvP, of course it will be lost someday - but don't keep them in the ports.

I'm not saying that the devs haven't done a lot to address this problem already, nor am I saying that you're completely wrong - I just feel that there very often is a considerable difference between my ships and my opponents ships. It would be nice if other people had access to the same things.

[Guest]

That Aga is a hideous and expensive abomination and it will get sunk regardless of its pimped out mods. It's a unicorn ship. 

The best ships I've ever sailed are ships I've captured all pimped out like this. Dumping money on a tricked out ride won't make you good at PvP. 

Poods bug me for their limited rarity though. They are a crutch and a meta that one day will cease to be when poods start costing more than ships. 

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, Flinch said:

That Aga is a hideous and expensive abomination and it will get sunk regardless of its pimped out mods. It's a unicorn ship. 

The best ships I've ever sailed are ships I've captured all pimped out like this. Dumping money on a tricked out ride won't make you good at PvP. 

Poods bug me for their limited rarity though. They are a crutch and a meta that one day will cease to be when poods start costing more than ships. 

Until a half decent players get his hands on one of these and he turns invincible in a 1v1.

[Percival Merewether]

19 minutes ago, Toto Cabbage said:

Whats the woodtype of that ship ?

Teak/White

EDIT: And very fast

Edited February 23, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

Teak/White

EDIT: And very fast

Toss planking on in one slot and you get some of the HP back.  Had a teak/white very fast i liked very much.  Even with planking it was fast compared to the others in battle.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Sir Texas Sir

[Percival Merewether]

7 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Toss planking on in one slot and you get some of the go back.  Had a teak/white very fast i liked very much.  Even with planking it was fast compared to the others in battle.

This screenshot is only taken in this configuration to show that "speed mod stacking" is still a thing, I am using it in a different configuration when I take it out for PvP, 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

This screenshot is only taken in this configuration to show that "speed mod stacking" is still a thing, I am using it in a different configuration when I take it out for PvP, 

Do you take it pvping? Do you have evidence of that? I can't see most people risking a ship like that. 

[Percival Merewether]

25 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Do you take it pvping? Do you have evidence of that? I can't see most people risking a ship like that. 

haha, you have got to be kidding me.. right? 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

haha, you have got to be kidding me.. right? 

Are you? Cause you sound like a carbear who probably would be so risk adverse that you wouldnt sail a mercury for fear of the loss. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Guest

[NethrosDefectus]

29 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Are you? Cause you sound like a carbear who probably would be so risk adverse that you wouldnt sail a mercury for fear of the loss. 

Damn carebears!

[Percival Merewether]

1 hour ago, Flinch said:

Are you? Cause you sound like a carbear who probably would be so risk adverse that you wouldnt sail a mercury for fear of the loss. 

You sound like a little sad "hello kitty" who question things just for the sake of questioning them without bringing anything of value to the conversation.

1 hour ago, NethrosDefectus said:

Damn carebears!

Thanks Neth - the polish campaign was a lot of fun, one of those battles was this one though.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351595983810985985/413463766039134210/Agamemnon.jpg

Edited February 23, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Flinch said:

Do you take it pvping? Do you have evidence of that? I can't see most people risking a ship like that. 

The causal players and most out there will prob hide these ships, but folks like us that love to RvR and PvP will use them. I have a 4/5 P Frigate Teak Teak Very Fast I'm waiting to open more slots on before I use it (that char is also currently being abused as my hulling mule for nation change from Russia to US).  Once I finish opening up two more slots on it I"ll deck it out and will be using it fully.   Made a 4/5 Mercury that is for shallow that is ready to fight.  I haven't gotten any of the 5/5 but I would use them too if I got one.   Why would I hide something that would help me fight better when I can just make another and hope for good luck (RNG does hate me though lol).

[Thonys]

49 minutes ago, RKY said:

i don't mind people stacking repair mods and armor / hp mods.

what i mind is only speed mod stacking. you should not be able to stack permanent mods like: copper plating, bovenwind, navy hull refit.

Right now there is no point going pvp in ow since it is in 90% of fight all about running and ganking.

allow stacking of these mods, but make it hardly worth it by making it diminishingly stacking: first one is 100%, second 50%, third 25%.

instead of having 7.5% you would have 4.75% speed bonus for stacking the 3 mentioned above.

 

Also reduce speed from RNG crafting and maybe add a malus:

good hope: 1%

fast: 1.5% , 3% roll

very fast: 2%, 5% roll

 

books:

trim speed: increase turn speed malus by 2% or put some rolling on it like 5%

 

"allow stacking of these mods, but make it hardly worth it by making it diminishingly stacking: first one is 100%, second 50%, third 25%."

that what we have in EVE in the low slots,  (but in this game it does not matter you will have nothing else what gets a buff )

   also the gains of a upgrade is so minimal now , if it is diminishing it is not worth stacking at all not even 2 upgrades 

so just keep this system,

 

but.

i rather see all the upgrades craftable 

i still look for a particular upgrade ,that i know of,   but can not produce HOW LAME IS THAT....

this  is more of an issue, than stacked upgrades ...

 

if the pve  ai ships dropped more of the good stuff , it would not be such a problem , but it only drops shit

i stacked 55 pumps,  and can not even sell them for free ....

when i find a pump in the captured ship i don't even bother to take it out of the ship HOW LAME IS THAT (i did  a boarding for nothing and lost valuable time )

 

funny how everybody complains about:   no pvp ...

well before i do / pve , i have to get my  ship ready and if i miss the upgrades i do not go on a pvp /pve mission 

 

no good ship , no pvp 

so take measurements 

ps:,..perhaps in the north and in the west and east it is all shiny (i don't actually know), but here in the south,... even the devs sell you rotten wood,  and fake upgrades 

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Thonys

[Norfolk nChance]

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25015-a-different-look-at-upgrading-and-stacking-ones-ship/

 

This is how I believe it should be done and why. EvE Online I also explain cannot differentiate orders of magnitude although it would help. The issue I believe with certain mods and upgrades is pushing the Game away from the more implied representation of life in the AoS towards more Gameplay ability for a wider customer base (or pirates of the Caribbean).

This tightrope balancing act we’ve walked on before, from hardcore sim to something appealing to a more casual audience. If the Dev’s are pushing NA-Legends which I interpreted as the casual player appealing to a larger player base then NA-OW should keep more to its roots?

What’s the point spending Years on the sailing model just to allow an additional two extra perm slots and stackable upgrades with skill knowledge having the same order of importance as the wood build?

It’s just a view. I still think the game is great all the same.

 

Norfolk