Ideas for new gunnery mechanics and also swivels baby!

[Cecil Selous]

I am thinking about this idea for a very long time and since I see that the complaints about demasting are on the rise again and that many mostly blame the accuracy of our cannons for this, I decided to present this Idea in a hopefully fashionable manner. Keep in mind these are just some ideas I have and want to share. I don’t insist that these should be implemented nor would I be frustrated if they won’t (I will just write a bad steam review ).

I too think that our cannons are far too accurate and thus enable players to snipe for specific parts of an hostile ship. Especially at longer ranges. Also the speed of changing your point of aim, acquiring a new target and the feeling of disconnection of the cannons from the ship, bothers me. Our cannons act like they are mounted on modern turrets. You can single shoot masts and if you miss you can instantly adjust your point of aim (horizontal and vertical) and shoot again with almost no delay whatsoever. Also, the up and down motion of the ship doesn’t influence the aiming at all. Sure, heel does influence your max and min elevation, but doesn’t pose a real problem.

So the main subject of my idea is, that the cannons and their point of aim really get fixed to the deck and are affected by roll, pitch and heel. So our aim bar constantly moves with the ship. The roll in the game right now is moderate to almost nonexistent because the sea in the instances is very calm. Maybe that should change too (variation). Heel can be significant but everybody should know by now how to minimize it. I don’t know if pitch plays a role, since aiming at the moment is not very much affected by the movement of the ship.

Furthermore, the change of horizontal orientation and elevation of cannons should be a bit slower. Cannons were manhandled with handspikes to change these parameters. This took time and to instantly fire a cannon during this (like we can do now) wasn’t possible. So cannons in game should not be able to fire while being traversed or elevated.

 

A simple example of how it could be shown to the player that his cannons aren't ready to fire during adjustments

What will be the effects of this? Changing horizontal traverse and elevation isn’t almost instantly anymore. Adjusting your aim to snipe enemy masts in a fast manner isn’t an option anymore. To have a further option of balance. carronades could receive a buff in horizontal traverse speeds due to their carriages. Changing elevation fast to quickly aim at the waterline and right after that back at the hull or masts won’t be possible anymore. You must pre-plan your broadside. You must calculate how and where you want to aim and how to position your ship to get the best result. In fact you will mostly don’t touch the elevation setting of your cannons and aim with the ship now and keep your guns leveled to the deck and use roll to either shoot high or low. You don't wan't an arched flight path of your balls and want to keep it as flat as possible. Elevation then comes into place if you want to compensate for heel or are very close to your opponent but still want to shoot high.

Also there would be a use for battle sails and people wouldn’t sail around with all sails set all the time. Full sails let the ship heel but also stabilize it against roll (although I somewhere read that higher speed makes the roll more unpredictable, sailing experts?). No sails on the other hand won’t let your ship heel as much but let your ship roll too unpredictable. Battle sails could be the middle ground between both extremes. A moderate heel and a moderate more predictable roll. I also read somewhere on the forum that the current battles sails layout isn’t exactly correct with set topgallants and royals but again, I think our sailing experts can prove me wrong on this or give better explanations.

A downside with current firing mechanics in combination with my proposed idea above is that many shots of a broadside probably won’t hit due to the ship movement. Well at least if you are not right next to the enemy ship. Right now we can single shot with space bar or release a whole broadside with a mouse click, where many shots will miss and be wasted. I believe that no gun captain would fire his cannon if the target isn’t in sight (I assume he has a clear picture and is not hindered by smoke). Therefor I would like an additional way of releasing a broadside. This was an idea of @Hethwill some time ago. He suggested that, while you hold down spacebar your ship will fire a rolling broadside (front, back, random). If you release spacebar it will instantly stop and will continue at the next cannon if you hold spacebar down again. Maybe a general gimmick could be to let the player choose between 2 or 3 different rates of firing intervals. With one where almost all guns fire at the same time. This could increase the probability of a reload shock of your enemy. A downside could be that it also has a small negative effect on your structure. But that's just an extra and honestly not really needed.

Until now I just made it harder to actually hit a target. I would also propose something more positive for the gunplay.

As far as I know, the transparent fire sector roughly shows where the shots will land. I don’t know exactly where the aim bar is pointing but I assume it is somehow an elongation of the bore axis (of course somehow the average of all decks). I would like to keep it that way with a few adjustments. I will explain these things with a few pictures too. At first, all decks should be independent from each other. This means different point of aim and also different cannon loads per deck. You will basically see an aim bar for every deck (aiming all decks at once should still be possible). If you go into aim mode of a deck, the correspondent bar will be highlighted and a vertical axis for elevation and horizontal axis for traverse will appear. There would be middle markers (where the cannon is leveled/perpendicular to the deck) and min and max markers. This way you could load chain on the top deck and aim it a bit higher, while the two other decks are loaded with double shot. Or you are up close and preparing for a boarding action. So load your small top cannons with grape, while still pounding the gun deck and waterline with ball. Since it is a bit more complicated, I think UI wise it would be probably better to use the mouse for everything instead of smashing long button combinations (like 1 - 1 - 2 for example).

no deck selected

all decks selected and in aiming mode (chain loaded only on the top deck)

all decks selected and traversed to the right

example to show what I mean: only the lowest deck is selected and all decks are aimed differently

 

In addition to that, captains should be able to mark up to three individual set settings on the elevation bar. You can experiment against AI or whatever you like and find some good settings that will help you in future battles. For example, you roughly know how far 200 meters are. With simple trial and error you can set the cannons of all decks to an elevation, where they will hit the target at 200 meters and roughly the same spot and mark it on the elevation bar. Doesn’t matter if the top deck consists of carronades while the other deck mounts longs. Or you keep your top deck always loaded with chain and aimed higher, because the low caliber won’t penetrate the hull of the enemy ship.

example of premarked elevation settings. Deck 2 and 3 set to almost the same elevation, while deck one is elevated higher (the colors are just to make them more distinguishable)

 

Since gunnery would be less accurate with those ideas, other things could also be adjusted. Like the thickness of hulls back to normal values. Leaks can be more dangerous (although I think they are fine as they are right now). Performance of cannons and carronades could be adjusted. Maybe introduce different firing mechanisms for cannons like flint lock and fuse ignition, which affects the delay between the command to fire and actual release of the round.

 

So a rough overview of what these ideas can change

Pros:

• no more easy mast-sniping (especially at long ranges)
• no more easy waterline sniping
• long range chaining very difficult - easier to escape
• a purpose for battle sails
• positioning and maneuvers are even more important
• more difficult to get the perfect rake (also affecting long range rakes)
• individual loadouts and aiming of every deck
• possible reintrodution of reasonable hull thickness because it is harder to hit consistently
• also adjustments of cannon damage possible to make up for worse accuracy (a really good broadside should have a big impact)

 

Cons:

• too complex and over-complicating mechanics
• too difficult
• can be frustrating
• no real difference with current calm and invariable sea states/ship movements
• many others I bet....    

 

 

Swivels.

Since we introduced swivels with the new pirate refitted LGV I thought about a way to implement them to all ships. Every ship should have some places where you can install swivels if you want. An example is shown in the picture below. To fit swivels to your ship you have to select in port where you want them on your ship. Maybe limit the number of swivels so not every point can be equipped with them. The player could also be allowed to switch the positions during the battle. This should take some time of course.

 

To man the swivels in the battle instance with crew, there should be a second option in the boarding menu (like press 9 and then 2 for “man swivels”) to fire the swivels you can switch between them and aim them personally at your target. I made some example pictures with a swivel aft and one at the fighting top.

 This can be a nuisance to smaller ships who like to stern camp your SoL. Those swivels can also be used in the new boarding mechanics if the devs are still on it.

 

So, this was it. Remember, these are just some ideas I had.If everything stays as it is, fair enough

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Cecil Selous

[Slim McSauce]

Holy shit dude devs need to hire you ASAP.

I honestly love this entire suggestion. It's awesome to see someone put in so much work to give us the visuals too. Where do I start..

The whole aiming mechanic is a MASSIVE change that I know a lot of people will not be fond of. My argument is this game is alpha and everything is subject to change, and if combat was to ever change, THIS is what I would want it to be from a "How good can we make this?" perspective. This aiming system in your suggestion is just so complete. It's like looking at the 1.2 release version of NA 

The swivels....by god man the swivels idea is so fudging good. I can just imagine if THAT was what boarding was instead of a menu, actual aiming and switching between postitions and maybe some minor RTS style for boarding would be so A1. You never really notice how good the game looks up close and how much it COULD work if we wanted that sort of thing.

I'm just in love with this suggestion, if I could give you 100 likes I would. This is evolutionary stuff. I unofficially award you with the "Next Level Suggestion" Reward

 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[balticsailor]

I remember there has been so discusions about the vertical stabilision effect you get from the fast vertical aim that follows the mouse and not the deck (main issue is/was gameplay/fun vs realisum if i remember correct) . But is seems to be a very well worked out idea for an alternative to the current system, i would be all up for testing that one.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

( Thanks Cecil sir, reading this carefully... on the immediate I hope the elevation/traverse indicators are just illustrative of the idea and not a UI request. )

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

 Nice suggestions! I hope developers will take count of your suggestions .

Edited January 29, 2018 by CaptainSparcklesss

[Cecil Selous]

29 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

( Thanks Cecil sir, reading this carefully... on the immediate I hope the elevation/traverse indicators are just illustrative of the idea and not a UI request. )

Of course not . Just a quick photoshop job to visualize what I mean.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Cecil Selous

[Slim McSauce]

17 hours ago, balticsailor said:

I remember there has been so discusions about the vertical stabilision effect you get from the fast vertical aim that follows the mouse and not the deck (main issue is/was gameplay/fun vs realisum if i remember correct) . But is seems to be a very well worked out idea for an alternative to the current system, i would be all up for testing that one.

I also like how this would effectively slow battles down. You'd be managing more on your decks, setting up shots all while switching between different positions to dump some quick fire down. 

Without the game-yness of super fast aiming, ships could be tuned far more to a realistic standard. Less arcade damage and sailing would be necessary because landing a full broadside will be  rare. We could up internal damage without fear of it feeling overbearing like it would be now with every fight consisting of multiple full broadsides barely doing damage to anything besides armor.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

The entire proposition is good. I like several points, the main one being the preset elevations, which is actually correct. Funny enough was slower to setup with the elevation screws albeit more stable

Regarding the Aim highlight, I'd simply make it without the extension of individual guns. The highlight of gundeck broadside remains to the full extent. Individual guns at 100m phase out.

[HamBlower]

The suggestions for a new gunnery mechanics are brillant. These ideas would solve a lot of inconsistency regarding the use of gunnery and brings a more realistic mechanic in ships arming.

I hope that a lot of these ideas will realized in game.

I have one additional wish  - please devs thought out again the policy of armor and hull thickness and make a well reasoned concept (like this of Cecil Selous) for armor, gunnery, rudder, masts and crew damage . Untill now there is a new armor modell, a little bit later it's corrected by a new gunnery concept, afterwards mast snaps like a match (and so on).

 

[Farrago]

Great ideas!

But as I would expect implementation to require a lot of new code as well as exponentially growing demand on processing power, I would hope that this would be more of a long term goal of a Naval Action 2.0 rather than something that happens now. Thickness, BR reevaluation, functioning economy, 4th dimension hopping Port Battles and screeners, not to mention tutorials, FAQ, and UI design all are higher priority.

[admin]

Great ideas in this topic - for some reason missed it

Interesting question to discuss here is should we remove the smart gunners from guns or not.

Smart gunners
Gunners adjust aim for coming wave automatically (smart gunners) when firing a broadside
As a result coming waive raises your ship but smart gunners are lowering guns in advance to counter it
=
Predictable aiming no feeling of randomness

Dumb gunners
Gunners do not adjust aim for coming wave and expect you to do so.
As a result any minor coming wave will make you guns spray and prey. 
=

Unpredictable shooting, you can plan ahead but usually you will miss half or more of your broadside.
 

Smart gunners are in game since original sea trials, we tried to test internally once without the smart gunners and its basically impossible to hit anything further than 100m unless its a first rate.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Unpredictable shooting, you can plan ahead but usually you will miss half or more of your broadside.

Akin to deflection shooting in a air combat sim. Don't see anything wrong.

But you have a fair point as many testers did "rebel" against missed broadsides - crew was smart enough to see the wave coming, was the obvious reasoning.

 

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, admin said:

...

Dumb gunners
Gunners do not adjust aim for coming wave and expect you to do so.
As a result any minor coming wave will make you guns spray and prey. 
=

Unpredictable shooting, you can plan ahead but usually you will miss half or more of your broadside.
 

Smart gunners are in game since original sea trials, we tried to test internally once without the smart gunners and its basically impossible to hit anything further than 100m unless its a first rate.

Still remindes me of the strom battles in sea trails (really miss them like all weather conditions like fog banks etc that we had once). Experts might love it for beginners the even difficult gunnery might be hard to master. (But we are getting a new lvl system so beginners will start with bigger ships). But what always bothered me is that the visual waves almost never fit to ship motion that would have to change in order to predict and make gunnery a skill.

[admin]

3 minutes ago, z4ys said:

 But what always bothered me is that the visual waves almost never fit to ship motion that would have to change in order to predict and make gunnery a skill.

they do. but yes.. some waves could jerk your ship down on the way up and screw up your plan (if gun angle is not adjusted by the gunner)

btw storm battles in sea trials already had smart gunners.. (once you started the broadside it went where you planned it originally), but of course you are right that you did have to pick the right moment when to click fire!

[Glorgir]

We should be Aware that this will not happen at once if given the go ahead, and the Dev Team will be crying into their morning coffees, with the extra work needed to implement this.

We are after all in the testing phase of the game, lets give it a go.

We have already seen things implemented, which once tested were changed after discussion.

 

[z4ys]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

they do. but yes.. some waves jerk your ships and you cannot really plan..

btw storm battles in sea trials already had smart gunners.. (once you started the broadside it went where you planned it originally)

True. But there was a reason why so many people just left at the beginning of the fight.  Even we had smart gunners most broadsides got eating by waves. We saw a lot of demasting while people tend to aim higher. If memory serve me well most people didnt liked it. Dont get me wrong i would be the first to try out dumb gunners but not sure if majority would like it, like patch 10.x which was in my opinion an awesome time ;-)

Edited February 19, 2018 by z4ys

[Percival Merewether]

Actually yes, like @Glorgir says... we're in the testing phase of the game - Can we get to test playing without smart gunners for 2-3 days and then provide feedback? possibly allow for correction using the mouse during the broadside so you can save it if it goes completely wrong?

[Slim McSauce]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

Great ideas in this topic - for some reason missed it

Interesting question to discuss here is should we remove the smart gunners from guns or not.

Smart gunners
Gunners adjust aim for coming wave automatically (smart gunners) when firing a broadside
As a result coming waive raises your ship but smart gunners are lowering guns in advance to counter it
=
Predictable aiming no feeling of randomness

Dumb gunners
Gunners do not adjust aim for coming wave and expect you to do so.
As a result any minor coming wave will make you guns spray and prey. 
=

Unpredictable shooting, you can plan ahead but usually you will miss half or more of your broadside.
 

Smart gunners are in game since original sea trials, we tried to test internally once without the smart gunners and its basically impossible to hit anything further than 100m unless its a first rate.

I think this could be addressed by adding more firing control. Like for example holding space will do a rolling broadside until you let go. That was you can aim, shoot 4-5 balls, stop adjust/wait for the wave to pass then continue on. This would also help the demasting meta, I know you want to see demasting as it was IRL but it's not possible with how accurate we can aim our cannons without any deflection. Waves are a problem for smaller ships, maybe they can be toned down in certain scenarios? calm/medium/choppy weather calm being the most common

Edited February 19, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[SKurj]

Can we try dumb gunners in a test server environment?

 

[SKurj]

and is there a mechanic or 'simple' coding that would slow down the time it takes to aim the guns in game?

[Slim McSauce]

I know I've said it already but with this you could tune damage up to compensate for the lesser accuracy.

A penning shot could kill/wound 2-3 crew like it would in real life, fires could damage sails before going out, and you could really punish someone pairing good sailing and gunnery.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[GrubbyZebra]

56 minutes ago, admin said:

Great ideas in this topic - for some reason missed it

Interesting question to discuss here is should we remove the smart gunners from guns or not.

Smart gunners
Gunners adjust aim for coming wave automatically (smart gunners) when firing a broadside
As a result coming waive raises your ship but smart gunners are lowering guns in advance to counter it
=
Predictable aiming no feeling of randomness

Dumb gunners
Gunners do not adjust aim for coming wave and expect you to do so.
As a result any minor coming wave will make you guns spray and prey. 
=

Unpredictable shooting, you can plan ahead but usually you will miss half or more of your broadside.
 

Smart gunners are in game since original sea trials, we tried to test internally once without the smart gunners and its basically impossible to hit anything further than 100m unless its a first rate.

What about a hybrid, gunners start off dumb but get smarter with each knowledge slot you unlock.

[SKurj]

1 minute ago, BPHick said:

What about a hybrid, gunners start off dumb but get smarter with each knowledge slot you unlock.

and the new player stands a chance how?  

Edited February 19, 2018 by SKurj

[Slim McSauce]

Maybe straight up in between with a half gyro and swivel angle reduced 50%, elevation angle set to historical, and cannon dispersion upped 20%. This is a quick adjustment for testing.

[GrubbyZebra]

1 minute ago, SKurj said:

and the new player stands a chance how?  

Well, that idea is prerequisite on a change to how bonus stacking works which is rattling around in my head. Basically, bonuses would be largest on the slowest, weakest, least accurate ship and diminish as those numbers increased.

Also, it would encourage players to focus on building knowledge and experience with specific ships, and would be more analogous to a gunnery officer learning the behavior of the ship.