Taranis Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 Although I feel that the amount of pvp has improved a bit, I wonder whether pvp would not be further promoted by rewarding losses as well. If players get a few pvp marks for assists, why not also provide a few marks for players losing a pvp engagement? 5
Guest Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 This same thing is was brought up in another thread this week. It's hard to create a system that can't be abused if everyone goes home with marks whether people sunk or not. Personally it sucks to lose and get basically nothing. It also sucks to win and not get credit for the kills on your side.
Slim McSauce Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) PVP marks are a double edged sword. I use to not mind not getting xp/gold/cms from tagging or chaining because there are plenty of other ways to get those things. Now I and many others get livid when they do combat for an hour to get no PVP marks and we're constantly fighting over who gets the kill credit/cap. It's not fun to deal with even when you win. It's a meh system we have. I'd prefer combat marks for all. Atleast that way people aren't alt abusing or cheesing the system to get premium items Edited January 27, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson 3
Blackjack Morgan Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said: PVP marks are a double edged sword. I use to not mind not getting xp/gold/cms from tagging or chaining because there are plenty of other ways to get those things. Now I and many others get livid when they do combat for an hour to get no PVP marks and we're constantly fighting over who gets the kill credit/cap. It's not fun to deal with even when you win. It's a meh system we have. I'd prefer combat marks for all. Atleast that way people aren't alt abusing or cheesing the system to get premium items I'd have to say I agree. PVP Marks have become the new premier currency which leads to a whole system ripe for abuse. Before marks the argument was made that we needed to have more reasons to PVP so I understand why they introduced marks....I just don't think this ended up being the most desirable method of doing so. I wonder if simply having combat marks, like you suggested, wouldn't be preferable....a system where PVP just awarded a higher number of those marks compared to PVE? In some ways I struggle with the concept of "needing" a reason to PVP other than it's fun....for me that was really the only incentive I needed. However, I understand that not everyone feels this way. But right now things like marks, books, and mods are worth way more than ships and it just seems kind of lame. The game has become very gear and loot focused. 2
vazco Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 VM's could be good currency for activity. If you fought in a battle in a given week and sunk yourself or someone else, it could give you VM's. Same for hostility or pb's. If you received them in a logarythmical relation to activity, it could be a good motivator for less active players. Permit in this case should probably cost a few times more VM's. 1
Slim McSauce Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, vazco said: VM's could be good currency for activity. If you fought in a battle in a given week and sunk yourself or someone else, it could give you VM's. Same for hostility or pb's. If you received them in a logarythmical relation to activity, it could be a good motivator for less active players. Permit in this case should probably cost a few times more VM's. The problem with VMs is that they don't reward nation who take risk and do lots of PBs a week. It rewards the nation that started off in the top 3 and remains there because their power gap is ever expanding. The proper way to reward RVR is to make it so the most captures/battle points for that week takes home the VM, not the nation who's held their 60 ports for 3 months straight. This dumbfounded me when it was reintroduced and I still don't understand why they'd make it so the top 3 nations continually get VM income instead of nations who are constantly fighting and trying getting them. Edited January 27, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson 2
Taranis Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 Well we also have a system now that makes it that much easier for folks with certain op upgrades to get more great upgrades - and for those that don’t to keep losing. It’s one thing to lose to someone that played better than you - but upgrades are not a matter of skill - and thus blemishes the pvp system a bit. 1
Slim McSauce Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) Just a question, since introduction of VMs have we seen a nation take the spot of top 3 that wasn't already there? If not I think it's time to introduce a conquest system by weekly points and not points over time. That way each week a new nation can step up and earn a VM. Edited January 27, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson
Taranis Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said: Just a question, since introduction of VMs have we seen a nation take the spot of top 3 that wasn't already there? If not I think it's time to rethink weekly conquest. Indeed.
Christendom Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 37 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said: Just a question, since introduction of VMs have we seen a nation take the spot of top 3 that wasn't already there? If not I think it's time to introduce a conquest system by weekly points and not points over time. That way each week a new nation can step up and earn a VM. Russia popped on there for a week or 2. it's not easy to stay on there unless you have all the double/triple mark ports or spend millions a day in port upkeep. 1
Teutonic Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 I remember the days when you would get gold and xp for damage, and while it wasn't a lot the fact that you still got a reward even when losing really helped many new players and old players cover some of the mounting costs of pvp. I am in full agreement towards anything to bring that back. I can attest that is gave players a better reason to go out and fight won or lose. There is just too much at stake for some folks. As @Slim Jimmerson said, people spend an hour to 1.5 hours in battle only to get nothing sometimes and it's extremely disappointing. 3
vazco Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 57 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said: The proper way to reward RVR is to make it so the most captures/battle points for that week takes home the VM, not the nation who's held their 60 ports for 3 months straight. Exactly You just need some security mechanisms to prevent exploits , and the system would work perfectly. People would want to create content for others, instead of game the system to gain one more port and set a timer that will prevent reconquest. (eg. trading ports should give penalties, participating in PB's without kills should give smaller rewards etc.).
vazco Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 58 minutes ago, Taranis said: Well we also have a system now that makes it that much easier for folks with certain op upgrades to get more great upgrades - and for those that don’t to keep losing. It’s one thing to lose to someone that played better than you - but upgrades are not a matter of skill - and thus blemishes the pvp system a bit. If you're talking about skill konwledges - this is not the case any more after the last patch. There are no OP skill knowledges. The best combos are with upgrades that you can get for CM's. If you're talking about upgrades - they're available pretty much for everyone in open harbours. It's just the matter of cash. You can earn to get most expensive upgrade - Cartagena - with two good trade-runs, something that would take you 1 hour.
Navalus Magnus Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said: The proper way to reward RVR is to make it so the most captures/battle points for that week takes home the VM, not the nation who's held their 60 ports for 3 months straight. To make exploits as complicated and time consuming as it could get, you should imo grant VMs only if ... - battles have actually been fought (pb or screening battle - the latter would be a battle close to the concerned pb; close in both, time and space) - a certain number of ships has, or fleets with a certain BR have been engaged in these battles - ships / fleets engaged have been from the attacking and defending nations (too) - a certain amount of damage has been dealt in these battles Edited January 27, 2018 by Navalus Magnus
Taranis Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, vazco said: If you're talking about skill konwledges - this is not the case any more after the last patch. There are no OP skill knowledges. The best combos are with upgrades that you can get for CM's. If you're talking about upgrades - they're available pretty much for everyone in open harbours. It's just the matter of cash. You can earn to get most expensive upgrade - Cartagena - with two good trade-runs, something that would take you 1 hour. I was referring to upgrades not knowledge slots. I disagree that upgrades are universally available. The number of resources produced per day are finite and do not scale based on demand or the number of players. Btw, on a related note: it sometimes seems that the devs are so preoccupied with the 5% that misbehave, that they put rules / or game mechanisms in place that end up penalizing the 95% of other players that do not have alts... Edited January 28, 2018 by Taranis
Nick the cursed Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 Why not try to play without marks... Just dont think about it and fight, if dont have any for a Wasa, try to find a Connie, Frig, Belle Poule, Cerb, Snow, Pickle... Personally, i dont need PvP/Victory mark for my PvP... Take marks as rewards, dont farm for it. 2
Taranis Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Nick the cursed said: Why not try to play without marks... Just dont think about it and fight, if dont have any for a Wasa, try to find a Connie, Frig, Belle Poule, Cerb, Snow, Pickle... Personally, i dont need PvP/Victory mark for my PvP... Take marks as rewards, dont farm for it. The argument is a bit spurious: we are discussing of means to incent other players to seek out pvp. That said, I see your point, I like my prey nice and meek too - i can club them that much faster and confuse my superior buffs with my skill level and feel that much better about myself to boot. Navy Hull Structure, OW Speed buffs and the like are just overrated. Edited January 28, 2018 by Taranis
Sir Texas Sir Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Taranis said: The argument is a bit spurious: we are discussing of means to incent other players to seek out pvp. That said, I see your point, I like my prey nice and meek too - i can club them that much faster and confuse my superior buffs with my skill level and feel that much better about myself to boot. Navy Hull Structure, OW Speed buffs and the like are just overrated. He's got a point, one of the things that made BLACK great on GLOBAL wasn't just the fact we showed up with the best we can bring. We showed up expecting to fight to the last ships and have back up. If you come to fight and win and not run you tend to win more. When you win more you get more marks. When you get more marks you get better ships. If you show up expecting to loose your ship so you bring crap you will get crap. That is part of the problem is a lot of players are so worried about loosing pixel ships they avoid fights. Well don't bring what you can't afford to loose. There is nothing wrong with a fleet of 5tth rates, just got to pick and choose your battles is all. If you get into enough fights and gain enough PvP Marks those VM's really don't mean crap. That is why we stop going for the number one spot on Global, we didn't have the man power to hold a billion ports just for one VM a week. It's like Russia now it got it's spot for a week or two and than back out cause it couldn't afford to keep taking ports and trying to defend them to keep the spot so we handed ports off to a friendly nation that could hold them better. By what I'm told most the guys make tons of PvP marks so the VM's don't really mean much right now cause they are still out there fighting and fighting in the OW is where you gain the marks at. 1
Taranis Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 40 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: He's got a point, one of the things that made BLACK great on GLOBAL wasn't just the fact we showed up with the best we can bring. We showed up expecting to fight to the last ships and have back up. If you come to fight and win and not run you tend to win more. When you win more you get more marks. When you get more marks you get better ships. If you show up expecting to loose your ship so you bring crap you will get crap. That is part of the problem is a lot of players are so worried about loosing pixel ships they avoid fights. Well don't bring what you can't afford to loose. There is nothing wrong with a fleet of 5tth rates, just got to pick and choose your battles is all. If you get into enough fights and gain enough PvP Marks those VM's really don't mean crap. That is why we stop going for the number one spot on Global, we didn't have the man power to hold a billion ports just for one VM a week. It's like Russia now it got it's spot for a week or two and than back out cause it couldn't afford to keep taking ports and trying to defend them to keep the spot so we handed ports off to a friendly nation that could hold them better. By what I'm told most the guys make tons of PvP marks so the VM's don't really mean much right now cause they are still out there fighting and fighting in the OW is where you gain the marks at. The point made above seemed opposite to the one you have just laid forth. I believe Nick was proposing that folks just get out there with anything they get their hands on - you on the contrary are suggesting that one gets out there with their better ships and fight for it. Neither of these arguments are exclusive to my proposal above.
vazco Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 11 hours ago, Taranis said: I was referring to upgrades not knowledge slots. I disagree that upgrades are universally available. The number of resources produced per day are finite and do not scale based on demand or the number of players. They are available for a certain price and you can buy unique upgrades in open ports: Northern Carpenters - 800k Bovenwinds - 1.1mil Cartagena - 4 mil Crooked hull - 800k Yes, they are limited, however this only changes the price. The only upgrade which you will have trouble getting is copper plating, since it's not produced. Upgrades are not that OP any more in PvP. They are an issue only in RvR, where stacked thickness upgrades (Cartagena+Navy Structure) decide about victory and failure. All the others I think are more or less balanced. 3
RedNeckMilkMan Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 17 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said: Just a question, since introduction of VMs have we seen a nation take the spot of top 3 that wasn't already there? If not I think it's time to introduce a conquest system by weekly points and not points over time. That way each week a new nation can step up and earn a VM. We snatched it out from the brits last week.
Barbancourt Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, vazco said: If you're talking about upgrades - they're available pretty much for everyone in open harbours. It's just the matter of cash. You can earn to get most expensive upgrade - Cartagena - with two good trade-runs, something that would take you 1 hour. People keep saying stuff like this, but silly trade profits like that aren't available to everyone. I used to have a nice trade loop on Global but to get something like 4 million it would take me something like a month of checking the markets hourly all day long to get the goods as they spawn before anyone else did, and then sailing many hours of round trips. Lots of that money went straight to buying ships, teak, upgraded shipyard, etc... All that market camping and almost-AFK sailing is why I have over 1000 hours in the game, LOL. Edited January 28, 2018 by Barbancourt (rownd)
Guest Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 20 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said: PVP marks are a double edged sword. I use to not mind not getting xp/gold/cms from tagging or chaining because there are plenty of other ways to get those things. Now I and many others get livid when they do combat for an hour to get no PVP marks and we're constantly fighting over who gets the kill credit/cap. It's not fun to deal with even when you win. It's a meh system we have. I'd prefer combat marks for all. Atleast that way people aren't alt abusing or cheesing the system to get premium items Maybe stop fighting 10v1 😇 Seriously though, I can't think of a battle in the last month that I've participated in, where my side won and I didn't get PvP marks. This is mostly because I typically hunt solo or in small groups. However, I think it's good that ganking isn't incentivized. If you choose to smash small groups in massive fleets, there are consequences.
Slim McSauce Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 Just now, EliteDelta said: Maybe stop fighting 10v1 😇 Seriously though, I can't think of a battle in the last month that I've participated in, where my side won and I didn't get PvP marks. This is mostly because I typically hunt solo or in small groups. However, I think it's good that ganking isn't incentivized. If you choose to smash small groups in massive fleets, there are consequences. It's not our fault you come to our capital with 2 Wasas every day. Infact I would argue this is a good reason why PVP marks don't work. Instead of real incentives to go out and fight we still have people hopelessly waiting outside of capitals to get any fight they can because there's hardly any OW PVP objectives anywhere.
Guest Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said: It's not our fault you come to our capital with 2 Wasas every day. Infact I would argue this is a good reason why PVP marks don't work. Instead of real incentives to go out and fight we still have people hopelessly waiting outside of capitals to get any fight they can because there's hardly any OW PVP objectives anywhere. Come on, we showed up with two Wasa's once. Every other time for me has been in Endymion or Indefatigable I disagree about your point on finding PvP. Most of the fights I find vs. US are near Ayes. Our typical trips end when we get to the safe zone, at which point we head back down. Sometimes we go to Charleston, but it's less common. Also, you should check out the activity around free towns. La Tortue, Tumbado, and a few other ports are always highly active areas that very often provide PvP. We tried combat marks as the only reward, it didn't work. Most people chose the PvE option. More incentive for people to PvP would be nice, but we won't get that by removing the marks.
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