Vernon Merrill Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Can we also add another variable to the equation: Not ALL battles have to be, or even SHOULD be to the death.... If I'm in a ship, and I'm getting may ass handed to me, you better believe that if the enemy hasnt removed my means of escape, I'm getting out of there. Good captains have an exit strategy in addition to a fight strategy. 4
Odol Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, admin said: no - in 5 years maybe Can we at least get a use for Battle Sails? And a hit point meter for our own masts?
Slim McSauce Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, Odol said: Can we at least get a use for Battle Sails? And a hit point meter for our own masts? cut crew requirement in half? Like how turning off one side of guns does. 1
maturin Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Odol said: The Victory was headed nearly directly at the French line at that point and I think was at battle sails running probably 6-7kn. 3 kts 1
Malachi Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, maturin said: 3 kts And flying her studding sails heroically, I suppose? 1
Corona Lisa Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) Shooting masts is cool, at least you need to aim and abuse enemy position to be effective - in contrast to braindead chaining. And since bottom masts are so strong and rarely break it doesnt mean that you are dead or useless if your middle or top -mast breaks Edited January 26, 2018 by Jon Snow lets go
blubasso Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 32 minutes ago, admin said: dont listen to people with misconceptions who base their knowledge on movies or other games (all of which did not even had backing force/sternway).. 3rd rates were amazing sailers in real life (74 was the most successful ship design and their number even exceeded the number of frigates at certain point). some 3rd rates sailed faster than average frigates. That's why i said in another post that a newcomer should be educated to how to be a sailor before be a fighter... When the game will be at last finished, wait for tons of complaints because normal ppl like me hasn't no idea how to properly sail a ship...
Licinio Chiavari Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Odol said: The Victory was headed nearly directly at the French line at that point and I think was at battle sails running probably 6-7kn. The French were most likely doing about the same in a crossing pattern. So not a difficult shot, and if I recall one of the masts of the Victory actually fell on collision with a French ship. I'd say optimistic granted the famed light breeze at Trafalgar. Granted it fell upon collision... I'd bet it simply got too many damage to stayropes/shrouds (unsure of english word)... Because you know that no mast with sail on it would ever stand up on its own, right?
Licinio Chiavari Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, blubasso said: That's why i said in another post that a newcomer should be educated to how to be a sailor before be a fighter... When the game will be at last finished, wait for tons of complaints because normal ppl like me hasn't no idea how to properly sail a ship... Having a cruise as cadet on Vespucci, being a sailing instructor (having got serious time at Sea so) as you could noticed I have nothing to say about sail handling, aside it's far simpler and enormously faster than real... Still something good to give the feeling of a sailing boat but playable for 'all'. I am highly critic about demasting and combat repairs... Aside, balance wise, the utter OP-ness of Wasa not yet solved... Coupled with dozen of broken ships PVP wise. Edited January 26, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari Compilator typos wtf... 2
Licinio Chiavari Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said: Can we also add another variable to the equation: Not ALL battles have to be, or even SHOULD be to the death.... If I'm in a ship, and I'm getting may ass handed to me, you better believe that if the enemy hasnt removed my means of escape, I'm getting out of there. Good captains have an exit strategy in addition to a fight strategy. Quite difficult anche exit strategy on a frigate with the pirate Wasa coming being faster than you in all directions. Or if by chance you have a bit more speed... you lose ALL your masts in a few broadsides at over 100 mt distance even if both running and tightly turning at over 10 kts... 1
Sir Texas Sir Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 30 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said: Can we also add another variable to the equation: Not ALL battles have to be, or even SHOULD be to the death.... If I'm in a ship, and I'm getting may ass handed to me, you better believe that if the enemy hasnt removed my means of escape, I'm getting out of there. Good captains have an exit strategy in addition to a fight strategy. I always liked the surrender feature in POTBS at start of battles. Where they could offer up part of there cargo and I could let them go. To be honest I would prob let a lot of new players and lower levels go if there was an option like this where they can give up part of there cargo or offer payment for them to be let go. 29 minutes ago, Odol said: Can we at least get a use for Battle Sails? And a hit point meter for our own masts? There should be penalities for fighting at full sails to be honest. Thus encouraging folks to fight in Battle sails. When every one was using tanked out ships right after the wipe I was out using Teak/WO and fighting in Battle sails and some times going faster than the LO/WO ships, but I could go full sails and get out of trouble if I needed too. This should be the norm instead of every one fighting always at full sails the whole time. 21 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said: Shooting masts is cool, at least you need to aim and abuse enemy position to be effective - in contrast to braindead chaining. And since bottom masts are so strong and rarely break it doesnt mean that you are dead or useless if your middle or top -mast breaks and people forget that mast/sail damage is to multi parts of the ships rigging not just to the mast or sails. 3
blubasso Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said: Having a cruise as cadet on Vespucci, being a sailing instructor (having got serious time at Sea so) as you could noticed I have nothing to say about sail handling, aside it's far simpler and enormously faster than real... Still something good to give the feeling of a sailing boat but playable for 'all'. I am highly critic about demasting and combat repairs... Aside, balance wise, the utter OP-ness of Wasa not yet solved... Coupled with dozen of broken ships PVP wise. As for as i know (and i know very little about sailing and war on the sea in 1700/1800) this game is faster than in real life under many circustances. I have nothing against you but you as a sailor should better understand that this is a game, with gaming purposes and not a pure naval sim. P.S. My father was a cadett on Vespucci too. I was in the Italian Navy (Vittorio Veneto cruiser) in 1984 Edited January 26, 2018 by blubasso
Licinio Chiavari Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, blubasso said: As for as i know (and i know very little about sailing and war on the sea in 1700/1800) this game is faster than in real life under many circustances. I have nothing against you but you as a sailor should better understand that this is a game, with gaming purposes and not a pure naval sim. Infact I said: it's far simpler and faster, still it's good... Giving a bit of "sailing feeling" but being playable and enjoyable so even (with more difficulties - I knew whats being upwind and its value for example) to those lacking sailing experience. As stated, I am highly critic about other game mechanics... That have no reason to be in place (no realism, no more enjoyable game, no better gaming experience for players). Granted the above, I remain critic of this patch that not solved any in game issue written in these forums (by a lot of people - and often always the same, like Connie too nerfed, Wasa too op, demasting too easily/often happening) and even put in place some changes in the opposite direction. Edited January 26, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari Again corrector typos... 1
DeathBaron Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 I translated the topic of Patch 14 to Portuguese for a better understanding of the Portuguese and Brazilian community, a new topic has been inserted in the "Naval Action Spanish Language" until a new Sub-Forum be created for Portuguese Language. You can access this Link 1
Ink Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 7 hours ago, Luigiebox said: Any patch notes? @admin Small hotfix, False Keel - Main sail force bonus corrected to -2% (-5% earlier) 4
GrubbyZebra Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 5:10 AM, rediii said: You dont even need liveoak atm. Ships are not even realy penable with teak whiteoak and 2 thickness mods. Dont want to complain but wasa BR is wrong with 380. Its the same like 3rd rate now and a Bellona is way better than a wasa. 330 or something like that would have been better. As demonstrated elsewhere in the forum, the Wasa ranks squarely between the 3rd Rate and Bellona in capability and survivability.
Sir William Hargood Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 1 hour ago, admin said: lol - sorry mate, please do not dig deeper. first - there was even a reward in the royal navy (on some ships) for deliberately shooting at masts and destroyeing them it was 1 gold guinea second masts were destroyed - sometimes occasionally sometimes on purpose - in fact victory yards were destroyed at trafalgar - by deliberate french fire into masts I completely agree with Admin: It was known in this period that French tactics were to shoot for masts and sails. HMS Belleisle, Captained by Sir William Hargood, was the second ship in the British lee column at the Battle of Trafalgar , was so heavily engaged by the Franco-Spanish ships that she was soon completely dismasted. Here is the Victory after Trafalgar: Under tow into Gibraltar
Landsman Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, admin said: 3rd rates were amazing sailers in real life (74 was the most successful ship design and their number even exceeded the number of frigates at certain point). some 3rd rates sailed faster than average frigates. Did I hear someone say Bellona needs a buff? Yes, please.
Landsman Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, Sir William Hargood said: It was known in this period that French tactics were to shoot for masts and sails. Well it's easier to run away when your enemy has no masts / sails. Glad to see the french try their best to uphold this tradition in game.... 2
Eyesore Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 How long were fights going on before masts actually started to fall? Is there documentation on how many broadsides/balls were needed to inflict critical damage to rigging and masts? How many masts fell on their own? How many fell after being damaged but needed collisions to finally collapse? Would captains back then reduce sail (in a combatsituation) if they received more and more damage to the rigging? Simply to be able to keep the masts standing? Just asking, because if the effect shown on the pictures is only the result from shooting hours/days(?) on end and collisions ... then perhaps in game it should not be possible to get a mast down in the first 5 minutes or with 6 balls that hit the mast? The rigging actually holds up a mast, so would it not make sense that, ingame, we should also do enough damage to that rigging (shooting chain, simulates riggingdamage already?)? Shooting only ball can still bring down a mast, but it would require more broadsides/balls because you do less damage to the rigging than with chain? The order in which you deal that damage makes no difference (you can hit masts first and then work on the sails, or the other way around, or both) Sure demasting is a viable tactic/strategy but coupling both rig and mastdamage could make a bit more sense? And perhaps, coupling chaindamage and balldamage to rigging and masts gives the player that gets demasted a chance to use his rigrepair to delay the falling of the mast and thus continue to focus on hulldamage on his opponent? 2
Licinio Chiavari Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 51 minutes ago, Sir William Hargood said: I completely agree with Admin: It was known in this period that French tactics were to shoot for masts and sails. HMS Belleisle, Captained by Sir William Hargood, was the second ship in the British lee column at the Battle of Trafalgar , was so heavily engaged by the Franco-Spanish ships that she was soon completely dismasted. Here is the Victory after Trafalgar: Under tow into Gibraltar Can you kindly look a bit further and check if she got dismasted due to direct hits to masts or by heavy damages to sails, so to yards, stays and shrouds? BTW the "Trafalgar sail" (Victory foretop sail) got 90 holes (I'd underline: NINETY). I can be wrong... still they looks like a bit more the usual hits we got on our sails before losing a mast. 1
Eyesore Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Not critisizing, just trying to understand, I'm not an expert, reality and fantasy may be mixed a bit ;-) About the documented speeds: are those measured in optimal conditions (wheather, ballast, sea, brandnew, full gunloadout, crew, whatever else that will influence the endresult)? So, are they the topresults? Also, did the captain have any influence on the speedcapabilities? I don't know, maybe he's exceptionally gifted and can give better commands, so the crew handles the sails better, which may result in a higher speed than an average captain would be able to get to?
blubasso Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Ad usual, there's no measures without proper countermeasures. Mastering in something gives you no sure safety to be the best...
maturin Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 55 minutes ago, Eyesore said: How long were fights going on before masts actually started to fall? Is there documentation on how many broadsides/balls were needed to inflict critical damage to rigging and masts? How many masts fell on their own? How many fell after being damaged but needed collisions to finally collapse? It's just luck, mate. The fortune of war. Masts are sticks of pine. Most of the decisive dismasting going on in the game right now relates to topmasts and topgallantmasts. IRL, ships lost these upper masts incessantly, in bad weather even more often than in combat. If you score a few lucky hits, they will break, whether the shrouds are intact or not. A British 74 has topmasts that are only 19 inches thick. Topgallantmasts are 11 inches thick. Hit one of those straight-on with a supersonic iron ball 6 inches in diameter and what happens? The strength of masts in the game is still quite generous, while the thickness feature is basically a force field from Star Wars. It's the accuracy of guns that is exaggerated. If you want numbers, here are accounts of frigates shooting each other's lower masts off after half a dozen broadsides and 20 minutes of firing, respectively: https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/16233-1814-british-vs-french-frigates/ If you actually were heeling 10 degrees under a press of full sail at 13 knots, your rig would be even more vulnerable. And yes, ideally the damage models would take standing rigging and the force of wind on the rigging into account. Quote About the documented speeds: are those measured in optimal conditions (wheather, ballast, sea, brandnew, full gunloadout, crew, whatever else that will influence the endresult)? So, are they the topresults? Also, did the captain have any influence on the speedcapabilities? I don't know, maybe he's exceptionally gifted and can give better commands, so the crew handles the sails better, which may result in a higher speed than an average captain would be able to get to? Be a historian and interpret the texts. The language of the sailing quality reports appear to ask for the best recorded performance when sailing with the wind. Of course it's probable, but not necessarily the case that ships recorded their best speeds while in the ideal trim and in the weather conditions that most suited them. Hence the reason the captains were asked to report the trim of the ship fore and aft, and volunteered information on whether the ships were much disturbed by a head sea, etc. The captains wanted to get home to their wives and not write an essay, so we can only guess from their wording whether they were describing the best-ever performance of their ships or the speeds they would expect 'on a good day.' When it comes to close-hauled speeds, the reports solicited answers in three different weather conditions (and thus three different sailplans). Here there is more likelihood of 'typical' speeds being reported. Many of the factors you mention can spoil or alter the performance of ships, which is why a new report was solicited for each commission, and the results could change markedly over a ship's career. And of course it requires seamanship to make a ship perform. But a skilled captain would be hard-pressed to get more speed out of his command unless it had a clean bottom, a properly stowed hold, properly proportioned, stepped and supported masts, adequate sails and capable officers, topmen and helmsmen among the crew. 5
Navalus Magnus Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Landsman said: Did I hear someone say Bellona needs a buff? Yes, please. I think the Bellona as it is doesn’t need a buff - at least no big one! But 1st need a thickness nerf! That would be a good step towards a better ballance of the ships of the line. Edit: Ok, sorry, i repeat myself! Edited January 26, 2018 by Navalus Magnus 2
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