Was Constitution nerfed at some point?

[Ahoy H.R. Matey]

So I finally got around to building one, or rather buying one from the Admiralty. Now I know that Wasa is the king of all things, but especially the king of 4th rates, but the heart wants what the heart wants. (Plus I think Wasa looks like a tubby lill barge, and I play on PvE, so...).

Anyway. Aside from being utterly outclassed now, Connie seems to have taken a hit to the turn rate? With Teak/WO and no mods, I'm looking at about 2.5; that's comparable to turn rates of ships of the line! I don't remember it being quite as bad pre-wipe; was there a nerf to the ol' Ironsides? And why?

[H2O]

Big time. New sailing model ruined it. It used to turn nicely pre patch, now even with 3 turning mods it's turning very badly. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by H2O

[James Cornelius]

It seems it was nerfed well past what you would expect from its historical status. It's so clumsy now that a good 5th rate skipper can do circles around it - and defeat it rather handily.

 

Quite odd for a ship that never lost a battle.

[Malachi]

I thinks it´s time to give Conny some love...she should be as fast as a Trinc, slightly slower than Endy with 24s. And a better turnrate, definitely.

[H2O]

2 minutes ago, Malachi said:

I thinks it´s time to give Conny some love...she should be as fast as a Trinc, slightly slower than Endy with 24s. And a better turnrate, definitely.

We don't need speed, we need smooth turn. 

[Ahoy H.R. Matey]

Aw man, that's just bloody awful. Wonder why devs would be so unkind to the ship.

[victor]

1 hour ago, H2O said:

We don't need speed, we need smooth turn. 

this

[Fluffy Fishy]

The devs haven't been unkind to her specifically they have just given her stats in accordance to her hull, she has more mass below the waterline than the average 74, her new stats just reflect this. She should probably be a little faster though.

If I remember rightly her length at the waterline is 53m while her draft is something like 7m, meanwhile a ship like bellona is something like 51m gundeck with a draft of 6.5m, that being said bellona is a fair bit fatter at the waist although that would mainly affect her speed not turn rate. Constitution is basically a 3rd rate in all but armament, with similar footprints to some of the 80 gunners. Its also important to remember her performance is largely based on her having a very well drilled crew, as her sister ship President received some very average reports and service history under the royal navy.

[DeRuyter]

The other point to consider is that she has been given the status as a 4th rate for gameplay purposes, just like Wasa,  when IRL she was a 5th rate frigate just an unusually large one.

@Fluffy Fishy Not sure if they consider sail area to displacement ratios in the ultimate calculations but that may well be a distinguishing feature from your average 74 at least as to speed and acceleration.  I was not aware that President was used much after capture due to the damage she sustained hitting the bar off Sandy Hook. United States was also known to be a slow sailor due in part to the retention of the 42pdr carronades. What is clear is that there are a lot of variables within a ship class especially when they are built at different shipyards as were this class of ships.

The issue of speed for me is somewhat muted by our static wind conditions - the logs show Constitution was capable of a good turn of speed in certain wind conditions. I suspect like a line ship she may suffer in light wind. Although I saw her hit 5knts in light winds under tops'ls during the bicentennial sail.

[H2O]

2 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

The devs haven't been unkind to her specifically they have just given her stats in accordance to her hull, she has more mass below the waterline than the average 74, her new stats just reflect this. She should probably be a little faster though.

If I remember rightly her length at the waterline is 53m while her draft is something like 7m, meanwhile a ship like bellona is something like 51m gundeck with a draft of 6.5m, that being said bellona is a fair bit fatter at the waist although that would mainly affect her speed not turn rate. Constitution is basically a 3rd rate in all but armament, with similar footprints to some of the 80 gunners. Its also important to remember her performance is largely based on her having a very well drilled crew, as her sister ship President received some very average reports and service history under the royal navy.

We do not have Crew skill training, so all this comes down to 'we need turn rate boost'. Like I said I ran all turn mods available in the game (stacked) and it turns worse compared to pre patch. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by H2O

[Salty Dog.]

are they using the stats for the ship or the stats for the model?  If I remember right, the model is very old and not very accurate.

[Landsman]

4 hours ago, Malachi said:

I thinks it´s time to give Conny some love...she should be as fast as a Trinc, slightly slower than Endy with 24s. And a better turnrate, definitely.

@admin Yes, please can we give this legendary ship some credit and a place in the meta of NA... ?

[Fluffy Fishy]

2 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

The other point to consider is that she has been given the status as a 4th rate for gameplay purposes, just like Wasa,  when IRL she was a 5th rate frigate just an unusually large one.

@Fluffy Fishy Not sure if they consider sail area to displacement ratios in the ultimate calculations but that may well be a distinguishing feature from your average 74 at least as to speed and acceleration.  I was not aware that President was used much after capture due to the damage she sustained hitting the bar off Sandy Hook. United States was also known to be a slow sailor due in part to the retention of the 42pdr carronades. What is clear is that there are a lot of variables within a ship class especially when they are built at different shipyards as were this class of ships.

The issue of speed for me is somewhat muted by our static wind conditions - the logs show Constitution was capable of a good turn of speed in certain wind conditions. I suspect like a line ship she may suffer in light wind. Although I saw her hit 5knts in light winds under tops'ls during the bicentennial sail.

As far as I understand it sail power is calculated separately to hulls, hulls giving a static value while sails give a live value that changes with how the sails are presented using a static value taken from the amount of cloth the ship has and where it is positioned on the ship itself.

I am unable to access a lot of my resources right now because of what seems like a never ending building project in my home but as I remember it President served a short career either off the English coast or off the coastline of West Africa I forget which of the major US captures did which. I'm also fairly sure she was condemned thanks to rotten timbers rather than damage sustained when she was grounded. Something that would probably make more sense is to look closely at the career of the HMS President built in the 1820s taken from the original measurements, worth a look in at least, there's likely to be an admiralty sailing report hanging around somewhere to confirm.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[Blackjack Morgan]

Pretty sure people have been asking for the Connie to be "buffed" or tweaked since it was released like 2.5 years ago now? It's been quite some time I don't remember exactly how long ago at this point. Way back when though there was an awful lot of data and factual numbers presented by players....I remember TDA clan in particular.....showing why the Connie was being misrepresented in game. For whatever reason or bias the devs never seemed interested in listening to the evidence presented. Personally, I think its a decision made by them to have the ship remain sub-par.... 

 

[Landsman]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

Way back when

I remember constitution actually being a very decent ship way before Wasa and the wipe... can't argue it needs a buff and in my personal opinion a significant one... I also wonder what happened to the constitution kickstarter that was being discussed a while ago....

1 hour ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

For whatever reason or bias

I think Admin and his crew are more mature than for example Gajin with their russian bias vehicles that outperform anything else ( when I played it long ago ). Also if they hate it, why did they add it as one of the first ships? But yeah, it is kinda weired how they have no problem with Wasa being broken AF but keep this pitiful version of constitution in the game... Did I miss something and Wasa was that much superior to other ships and Constitution not so great after all in real life? I hope this isn't true....

[maturin]

Question to the mod farmers:

 

Given that the game is so gear-based now that the initial ship stats are basically irrelevant, can Constitution's turning problem be rectified by the proper build?

[Odol]

21 hours ago, Ahoy H.R. Matey said:

Aw man, that's just bloody awful. Wonder why devs would be so unkind to the ship.

 

I have a simple answer for you.

 

It is American.  

 

The only reason it seems the Lynx and Prince weren't nerfed is because... well they are made of paper and held together with good intentions.  

If you look at the Brig/Navy Brig aka the US ship Fair American, it is pretty useless compared to other 6th rates of the "Brig" class.   The "Snow" Ontario is just better at the same BR, the Rattlesnake (the other American Brig) was removed and never returned for some odd reason....  The Niagara, is unusable in Port Battles, AND is a admiralty/den ship buy to build only.    Even then it is outclassed by the Mercury, which in all honesty it should, Mercury was built in 1825, the Niagara almost 20 years earlier.....  So the Mercury SHOULD be better on paper.  

 

But then we get more and more ships that never saw service, let alone a sunrise in the region we are in, and the ships that ACTUALLY were there get nerfed.  

 

Lucy you got some 'splain'n to do!

[victor]

2 hours ago, maturin said:

Question to the mod farmers:

 

Given that the game is so gear-based now that the initial ship stats are basically irrelevant, can Constitution's turning problem be rectified by the proper build?

Strange question indeed. Even if it could be as you tell, a better turning 4th rate would still have an edge on it.

The actual problem of Connie is that it has no field in which it clearly excels (speed, turn, firepower) in comparison with other 4th rates.

Edited January 19, 2018 by victor

[Malachi]

22 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

I suspect like a line ship she may suffer in light wind

There´s a very small window in which large ships can out sail smaller vessels in very light wind conditions; it didn´t happen often, but it did happen.

3 hours ago, Odol said:

I have a simple answer for you.

 

It is American.  

 

The only reason it seems the Lynx and Prince weren't nerfed is because... well they are made of paper and held together with good intentions.  

If you look at the Brig/Navy Brig aka the US ship Fair American, it is pretty useless compared to other 6th rates of the "Brig" class.   The "Snow" Ontario is just better at the same BR, the Rattlesnake (the other American Brig) was removed and never returned for some odd reason....  The Niagara, is unusable in Port Battles, AND is a admiralty/den ship buy to build only.    Even then it is outclassed by the Mercury, which in all honesty it should, Mercury was built in 1825, the Niagara almost 20 years earlier.....  So the Mercury SHOULD be better on paper.

Yeah, sure. You do realise that one of the ships which have a much better performance in-game than IRL - only second to our dear Surprise - actually is american?

The ...uhm, 'other brig' .

And why should a ship be better just because it´s 'younger'?

9 hours ago, Landsman said:

Did I miss something and Wasa was that much superior to other ships and Constitution not so great after all in real life?

Conny needs a buff, that´s for sure, she was a superb frigate in her time. But if all ships had their historically correct performance (which would be all but impossible, because there´s simply not enough data, especially for the earlier ones), then only a handful of ships would be worth sailing, the NERFWASA!!! cries would probably be even louder.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Malachi

[Landsman]

18 minutes ago, Malachi said:

then only a handful of ships would be worth sailing

Yeah, but currently only 1 ship is worth sailing:

 

So having more OP ships wouldn't be perfect but still better.... I guess?

 

[Odol]

1 hour ago, Malachi said:

Yeah, sure. You do realise that one of the ships which have a much better performance in-game than IRL - only second to our dear Surprise - actually is american?

The ...uhm, 'other brig' .

And why should a ship be better just because it´s 'younger'?

What?

Are you saying the Surprise is American?  Uh.. Negative... that thing is British... VERY British, HMS Surprise.  

H= His/Her

M=Majesty's

S=Ship

Not the USS Surprise... Which I am not sure if there was ever a USS Surprise.  May have to Google that.   LOL.

U= United

S= States

S= Ship

Which didnt see actual use on mass till after the war of 1812. 

 

Or are you trying to say the Essex is a match for the Surprise... LOL if the Surprise is sailed by the AI and made of Live Oak and Fir.

 

The ONLY American ships in game are as follows.

Lynx (7th rate blockaide runner/privateer)

Prince Neuf. (6th rate privateer)

Brig (Fair American)

Navy Brig (Fair American)

Niagara (Snow rigged brig/schooner)

Rattlesnake

USS Essex

USS Constitution

 

That is ALL. 

[AeRoTR]

That consti is a brick, won't turn

[Odol]

The funny thing is, I dont even care if it turns better than a Wasa... I just want it to be faster than any other 4th rate or bigger.   That way at least it matches its historical accounts of it being faster than anything bigger than it, and more powerful than anything else considered a frigate. 

 

It would be nice if it could turn better but it is a LONG ship compared to the Wasa, so I can see it having the rudder turning abilities of a bus. 

[Malachi]

21 hours ago, Odol said:

What?

Are you saying the Surprise is American?  Uh.. Negative... that thing is British... VERY British, HMS Surprise.  

H= His/Her

M=Majesty's

S=Ship

Not the USS Surprise... Which I am not sure if there was ever a USS Surprise.  May have to Google that.   LOL.

U= United

S= States

S= Ship

Which didnt see actual use on mass till after the war of 1812. 

 

Or are you trying to say the Essex is a match for the Surprise... LOL if the Surprise is sailed by the AI and made of Live Oak and Fir.

 

The ONLY American ships in game are as follows.

Lynx (7th rate blockaide runner/privateer)

Prince Neuf. (6th rate privateer)

Brig (Fair American)

Navy Brig (Fair American)

Niagara (Snow rigged brig/schooner)

Rattlesnake

USS Essex

USS Constitution

 

That is ALL.

Thank you for your valuable insight into british and american navy nomenclature, I really appreciate that.

But the ship I was referring to - and the one you, for whatever reasons, called the 'other american brig'  - was the (Heavy) Rattlesnake.

[victor]

21 hours ago, Odol said:

The funny thing is, I dont even care if it turns better than a Wasa... I just want it to be faster than any other 4th rate or bigger.  

So you can catch them all ... to be demasted and sunk! 

Connie needs turn, speed is fairly good

Edited January 20, 2018 by victor