Lack of chasers severly limits gameplay

[William Death]

3 hours ago, maturin said:

Not sure there's room for guns to recoil there. And Renomee has basically nothing for the tackles, with the cathead timbers in the way.

 

By the way, IRL the best place to chase a ship was from the windward quarter, rather than a pure stern chase. Because you didn't have to keep them 'tagged'.

Yeah the cathead timbers would need to be shaved down above deck, and braced underneath, or add some extra planks to build up a false deck around the timber to create a clear run of deck for the carriage wheels. As for tackles, it would take some carpentry work to install a couple bitts that bear on the ribs, deck timbers, and forward bulkhead. Perhaps some knees from the bitts to the deck to help distribute the shock of recoil. Definitely possible though I think, but trickier since the Reno has such a fine bow with little room to play with.

As you say, there wasn't a need so much for them IRL because you didn't have to worry about tagging the enemy every 2 minutes. That moves more to the topic of control as a default perk and various ranges it could work at, or some other method of keeping the enemy in battle. 

 

1 hour ago, Nick the cursed said:

Reno dont need any chasers, like some ships, she's already fast (and dont've any ports to fit any cannons on his bow)...

True, its fast but you can't keep a faster enemy tagged in battle if he is determined to escape. This means you don't see Renommee as often in the OW as some other frigates that do have chasers. As to the lack of gunports, see the previous paragraphs.

[Landsman]

10 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Just give the trinco a chance

I can't decide between trinc and endymion... 

[HachiRoku]

11 minutes ago, Landsman said:

I can't decide between trinc and endymion... 

You don't have too. Sail them both

[HachiRoku]

5 hours ago, Nick the cursed said:

Reno dont need any chasers, like some ships, she's already fast (and dont've any ports to fit any cannons on his bow).

Reno is fine without but you're still wrong. Without bow chasers it won't matter how fast you are. Unless you're 2 knots faster you will always loose an enemy since you need to TARN to tag. Doing so so will cost you speed and distance. Over time with multi repair you will loose enemy. You're better of in a 1 knot slower surprise.

That said I think control should be standard without the perk.  

Edited January 17, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Nick the cursed]

Maybe you dont lose so much distance if you turn and fire a broadside of 10+ chains than fire only 2x chasers every 30s...

Lose distance but do more damages to the sails (it depend of his repairs state, btw)

[admin]

13 hours ago, maturin said:

Neither the lack nor abundance of chasers is the problem.

The problem is that artificial tag mechanics overinflate the importance of chasers, turning them from a useful perk into a necessity.

A single hit to the sails should not 'tag' an opponent. Serious damage should be required. So the ideal design would involve longer exit timers with a high threshold for restarting the clock.

Of course, that means throwing out the somewhat adequate balance that has been struck thus far.

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, admin said:

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged.

sounds good, it is a way to make it dependent on separation.

Having closure rate means to get to target, while gaining separation means it would escape eventually.

I like it.

[Nelsons Barrel]

1 hour ago, admin said:

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged.

Only in combination with 'control perk'

[z4ys]

2 hours ago, admin said:

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged.

Go for it

[Guest]

2 hours ago, admin said:

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged.

Personally I don't think that would change anything. At 2km I am almost never consistently tagged, so even if I get hit, just wait 2 minutes and I can leave. 

[Trino]

What happend to the changing-wind-plans? Would give all my chasers for changing wind

[Landsman]

3 hours ago, admin said:

maybe its time to just add 2km exit allowance even if you are tagged

Very much this.

[Hullabaloo]

Agreed, area control should be default mechanic, it mystifies me why this isn't the case.

Size of Control area in battle instance should be = tagging circle of target ship in open world?

Then remove the 'tagging' to keep enemy ship in battle instance mechanic altogether. You can only leave by getting out of control range.

Or: you could perhaps have a distance increase/decrease mechanic, so that your distance from the all enemy ships is measured per min,
If your distance from all enemy ships (within the control range) increases for x (say 5?) consecutive minutes you then have option to leave battle.

This would mean that a slower ship would almost never get away from a faster ship though, unless you were able to slow it down by chaining/demasting, but that seems realistic to me. 

A visibility mechanic. nighttime, storms, mist (so ship out of visible range do not appear on map) would be awesome! and would give a slower ship some hope

Chasers would then only be useful for actually inflicting damage and slowing the fleeing/chasing ships, still worth having as by using chain in chasers you might be able to slow down the chasing/fleeing ship to escape/prevent escape, but ships without bow/stern chasers could still successfully catch/flee provided they were faster.
Any ship that is moving faster than its pursuers can then leave after x minutes regardless of range and not be artificially kept in battle simply because its being tagged by chaser ball shots. Also, ships that wished to leave the battle would actually need to disengage and move away, rather than just suddenly disappearing from the middle of the fight because they happened not to have been hit for 2 minutes.

[maturin]

4 hours ago, Trino said:

What happend to the changing-wind-plans? Would give all my chasers for changing wind

We have changing wind.

And painful as it is for me to say this, it is a bad mechanic because of the predictable counterclockwise motion.

It means that if you are faster close-hauled, you can only escape on the port tack. The starboard tack will just eat away at your advantage.

What's the point of playing cards when the deck is always shuffled in the same order?

[Trino]

25 minutes ago, maturin said:

We have changing wind.

And painful as it is for me to say this, it is a bad mechanic because of the predictable counterclockwise motion.

It means that if you are faster close-hauled, you can only escape on the port tack. The starboard tack will just eat away at your advantage.

What's the point of playing cards when the deck is always shuffled in the same order?

Agree!

But i meant changing strength of wind .... 1-10 Beaufort or at least weak, medium and strong ...

[Sir Texas Sir]

22 hours ago, William Death said:

Renommee: One or two 4pdrs on the forecastle deck, have the carpenter fabricate a couple of stout posts to run the tackles to and tie them into the ribs and deck timbers. A competent carpenter and his team should have no problem easily completing a small job like that in a day with a hand saw, a few chisels, hammer, nails, bolts, wrenches, screws, and a bit-brace. Before you get concerned about weight, remember, a small-caliber cannon is roughly the same weight as 3-5 sailors. You can't seriously think that 3-5 sailors in a boarding action running around the forecastle deck would cause it to fall in: these ships were not flimsy. Recoil wouldn't be a problem because the posts that the tackles run to are distributing the load through the ribs, forecastle knees, and deck timbers.

I see plenty of room to either side of the Renommee's bowsprit for a single (or two if the crew doesn't mind a harder time maneuvering up there) 4pd bow chaser (the two guns per side on the quarterdeck are long 4pdrs, for reference).

Or you could pierce the hull forward of the anchor for a bridle port to mount a small chase gun: (although adding a single 4pd cannon to the forecastle deck would be the easier option, and would definitely cause less trouble when beating to windward in a heavy sea).

Reason why every ship didn't have them? You didn't need to keep a fleeing enemy tagged every 2 minutes. Not having guns on the deck there leaves more room for the crew to move about.

In a long chase, it wouldn't surprise me if the Belle Poule's forward most weather deck cannon was moved forward to allow it to fire ahead and try to disable a fleeing enemy's rigging. If you look at the following image, you'll see there is plenty of room for a chase gun on the forecastle (those are long 6pd cannons on the foredeck and quarterdeck). A bit more reinforcing of the bow where the eyebolts for the tackles go, and you'd have no problem mounting some 4pdrs there.

You know those 4 guns I never put on mine unless I'm runing all 6lbrs for a tagger...yah those guns would be slipped over into a bow/stern position real fast.  Maybe they could code it so that you have the option to put them on the sides or in the chasers position but not both.  Though ships like the Essex should have chaser any way.  If I remember right the reason it didn't was for balance at that time as it had a pretty heavy broad side compared to other ships in game at that time.

[Sir Texas Sir]

11 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

It takes skill to tag someone above 2km, that's almost maximum range. Bigger issues are:

1. Super accuracy of stern chasers

2. Defensive tags (I feel like this case was partially fixed with moving draging circle on targated player, because then enemies can join much closer. Nonetheless, it still remains an issue in 1v1 situations where one side is slightly faster, but not fast enough to get close during 15 seconds).

3. Area control as default mechanic (or rather lack of it is a problem)

1.  The super accuracy on Stern chasers should of been gone  along time ago.  Wasn't the only reason they did that was to give trade ships a chance?  With it ships like Wasa and Suprise can actually slow down several ships and escape that might miss it with the normal accuracy of bows.

2.  Tag should be like the FFA battles it's positional join and when you tag your where you tag at not way off in the distance.   I seen so many good tags mest up cause of the distance is way to far when you should be right on them and be able to get a broad side off on them at start of battle.  Than they take off and shread your sails with there super accurate stern guns as you miss all over the place with normal bow guns.   They should have two tag/pull cirlces.  The BR one and than an out side bigger one (remember when they had the 2.5 min join circle) that allows you to join instantly when the tag is done or not join at all.  You will be at a distance but still it's an option in cause you plan to go do other things or tag other players.  The defensive tags and than having to stop and turn to get to your join circle is just BS as it messes up most tags the majority of the fights.  Save the join cirlces for the safe zones around capitals only, every where else should be positional join with the two circles.

3. I been saying this for every that press gange/surgeon type skill (pretty much after battle you get a percentage of your crew back) and area control should be default skills that mayeb you get while you level up. Every other level you get a few skills auto.   Just like I think Crafting perks should be tied to crafting levels/ranks not your combat rnaks.  Split these things up and make them more about leveling up.

[vazco]

19 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

It takes skill to tag someone above 2km, that's almost maximum range. Bigger issues are:

1. Super accuracy of stern chasers

2. Defensive tags (I feel like this case was partially fixed with moving draging circle on targated player, because then enemies can join much closer. Nonetheless, it still remains an issue in 1v1 situations where one side is slightly faster, but not fast enough to get close during 15 seconds).

3. Area control as default mechanic (or rather lack of it is a problem)

Point 2 and 3 would be fixed by 2km zone. In my opinion it's a good idea. 

[Eskiwit]

It's ever strange when a ship leave a battle when this ship is close range to oponent, for this reason i agree control perk should be able ever.

Any different thing, not subject here but i want to share it ,  i think first fleet perk should able ever too so  the 10 point will be more easy to allow without change them for opensea/portbattle setup

[jodgi]

9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

If I remember right the reason it didn't was for balance at that time as it had a pretty heavy broad side compared to other ships in game at that time.

Poor Essex, no chasers AND excruciating tacking. One of those would be enough. Too much balance. 😋

[AeRoTR]

Block bow chasers direct forward shooting with full sails, one needs to give some angel, to hit an enemy just in front of him. Bow chasers should be able to shoot with some degrees left or right, not directly in front. Lower your sails to shoot front or manevour a bit.

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 hours ago, jodgi said:

Poor Essex, no chasers AND excruciating tacking. One of those would be enough. Too much balance. 😋

I use to love that ship when I was leveling up my second char. I kinda skip past it with my first though and went straight into the Trinc from the Surpise.  I twas a tuff little bugger in fights against much bigger ships, but it kinda go forgotten and left behind as more and more ships came out.  Though I have to admit they make great fleet ships when grinding AI or protecting your Traders (though I prefer to be the combat ship for that).

3 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

Block bow chasers direct forward shooting with full sails, one needs to give some angel, to hit an enemy just in front of him. Bow chasers should be able to shoot with some degrees left or right, not directly in front. Lower your sails to shoot front or manevour a bit.

Some one posted a pic with a dead zone in front of the bow, I would be all for doing that with bow chasers and giving more ships them if they take out the super accuracy of the stern chasers. That means you have to actually be a little off from the ship your chasing to tag and not exactly on it's arse.

[maturin]

Angled bow chasers would inject a lot more tactics into chases.

[Odol]

17 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I use to love that ship when I was leveling up my second char. I kinda skip past it with my first though and went straight into the Trinc from the Surpise.  I twas a tuff little bugger in fights against much bigger ships, but it kinda go forgotten and left behind as more and more ships came out.  Though I have to admit they make great fleet ships when grinding AI or protecting your Traders (though I prefer to be the combat ship for that).

Some one posted a pic with a dead zone in front of the bow, I would be all for doing that with bow chasers and giving more ships them if they take out the super accuracy of the stern chasers. That means you have to actually be a little off from the ship your chasing to tag and not exactly on it's arse.

I think if they reduced the accuracy of ALL guns not just Stern chasers it would be better. 

It makes no sense that I can snipe the topsail mast off of a ship moving 14kn at full sails in moderate seas, with a smooth bore cannon made by hand firing a ball made by hand, with a powder charge made by hand.  From a ship moving at 14+ knots, on moderate seas with no form of gyro stabilization let alone any form of stabilization at all.... at a distance of over 500m if not over 1km!   With 2m accuracy.   Hell I would be lucky to achieve that with the 5inch deck gun on the Arleigh Burke with modern fire control.

[AeRoTR]

6 hours ago, Odol said:

I think if they reduced the accuracy of ALL guns not just Stern chasers it would be better. 

It makes no sense that I can snipe the topsail mast off of a ship moving 14kn at full sails in moderate seas, with a smooth bore cannon made by hand firing a ball made by hand, with a powder charge made by hand.  From a ship moving at 14+ knots, on moderate seas with no form of gyro stabilization let alone any form of stabilization at all.... at a distance of over 500m if not over 1km!   With 2m accuracy.   Hell I would be lucky to achieve that with the 5inch deck gun on the Arleigh Burke with modern fire control.

Well said !