Poll: Grinding ship slots and rare books?

[Navalus Magnus]

Because of much and many posts discussing the sense or nonsense of grinding for mods, books and ship slots, me - and, I am sure the devs too (@admin and @Ink) - are eager to know why people commit themselves to grind for the above mentioned assets.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Navalus Magnus

[Navalus Magnus]

Wow, i honestly wouldn't have expected anybody to vote "because it's fun"!

 

@those who vote "because it's fun":

1. Are you new to the game or are you already playing for a long time?

2. Why is it fun for you?

 

-> I really ask out of interest, not to make fun of you!

Edited January 14, 2018 by Navalus Magnus

[Navalus Magnus]

@those who vote "... i'd rather do something else in the game":

 

What else would you like to do; what is the best the game has to offer for you?

[Guest]

There are some of us that think it works, dont love it, but dont hate it either.

Its time consuming, but a necessary game mechanic. I have no problems with it. The grind can be tough, but is needed to add value to unlocking slots. If everyone could unlock them in 3 or 4 missions - they would be no real value and game play would be lacking for it.

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Guest

[Hawkwood]

Grinding slots, and trying to collect skill books in PvE missions is a total failure in this game. It is boring, time consuming, unnecessary.

I am suggesting to unlock the skills by doing PvP or RvR, in all 3 levels : 1. Permanent upgrades 2. Skill slots on ships 3. Captain`s Perks

I am only not sure, if it would be better to implement random drops, or make fixed achievements.

Many games have this kind of "skill progress", why not having it in NA?

To make this possible, all ships should be craftable, and their crafting costs should be lowered by 50 %.(and a global market with ships contracts would be awesome too)

Same should be made for traders, since economy is an orphan in this game. Trade a lot, get more "trader achievements", better prices, and similar. And that would be the only PvE on a PvP server.

I am convinced this would boost the shipbuilding, trading, conquest which makes sense, and would allow any player to find his role in game.

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Cortez
forgot 1 thing

[William Death]

56 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

@those who vote "... i'd rather do something else in the game":

 

What else would you like to do; what is the best the game has to offer for you?

I chose this option. I'd simply do what I did before the grind was needed (or, at least, wasn't as necessary as it is now: way back, pre-wipe/Unity 5): I would PvP/RvR every day I'm active, with a few days here and there dedicated to trading or running the occasional mission for the gold gain. 

 

To me, PvP and RvR are the ultimate content this game has to offer. Things that delay access or make PvP/RvR more difficult for the masses (super-mods/books/slot grinding) are things that can contribute to lower player population. I know of a number of players who quit NA over the past 6-8 months because the grind for slots and modules that you NEED for PvP and RvR became too much. These are players with thousands of hours in the game: the constant grind to do anything just doesn't appeal to them.

Doing PvE against mindless AI bots is not my idea of fun, but you NEED the fancy books to be competitive in PvP: without them, you won't be as fast, as agile, have the reload/accuracy/repair/whatever, or be as capable in boarding as the players who have the same skill as you, but with the addition of the fancy PvE books. 

The current system goes like this:

• Want to be in a PB? How many slots do you have on your PB ship? Nope, can't use that ship, BR is broken for it (another problem entirely), go grind slots on x ships and maybe you can be in the next one. 
• You want your OW PvP Endymion (just an example, applies to most ships) to be as fast as mine? Ok, you'll need 2 very rare books, 2 more slightly less rare books, a super-rare copper plating, an upgrade worth 900k-2mil (depending on who is selling it and where), and 10 PvP marks to get started. Don't have those rare books? Copper plating too hard to find? Don't want to spend the gold on the upgrade? Well, I guess you'll be a whole 1-1.5kn slower than me or else have to build a fir ship to be as fast. Oh, and better get to grinding those AI, because thats pretty much your best shot at getting the rare books. 

With that sort of system is it any wonder that a lot of players don't want to stick around? I thought one of the goals of the big wipe and Unity 5 patch was to remove the "gold marines/gold carpenter's teams" dependant system that we had back then. Instead of reducing the number and increasing the availability of super-mods, the number has increased, availability stayed roughly the same, and the advantages provided by the mods skyrocketed!

Now I'm not complaining about the system because I don't have the fancy books or mods: I've gotten nearly all the books in the game, for nearly every rate--there are a few I'm missing, but honestly not that many. I was really shocked, when I redeemed all my books on PvP1 after the recent server merge: I filled up a Basic Cutter's hold, and a large warehouse too, with more books still left over in redeemables. 

 

As to ship slots, again, what a waste of time it is to grind bots just so I can equip the fancy books! I can maybe see the logic behind having goals to reach in terms of ship XP, but what I don't like is that you have to grind Every. Single. Ship. Individually. No matter how similar the ships are to each other (all of the frigates in the game share some similarities, for example), you still have to do the grind on the individual ships. My suggestion (which I made a topic about when the system was on the testbed) was to have the first 3 slots of the ship grind be unlocked over the entire class of ships. Much of that topic was addressing the now-removed ship-knowledge tree, but here is the relevant part of the post containing my suggestion: 

Frigates (4-5th) rate ships have an xp pool of 30,000 xp and any time you earn xp sailing ANY frigate, the pool fills some. So I gained 25k xp sailing my Trinc, that xp has gone into the pool. Here is how the pool works, each time a certain amount of xp is reached, a slot unlocks on all the frigates, whether you have sailed that particular ship or not. The pool will only unlock the first three slots:

1: 10,000 xp unlocks 1 slot on all frigates

2: 20,000 xp unlocks 2 slots on all frigates

3: 30,000 xp unlocks 3 slots on all frigates

So for this example, I have earned 25k xp sailing the Trinc; which means 25k xp has gone into the pool, and I have unlocked 2 slots on every frigate by specializing in the Trinc. I'm also only 5k xp away from unlocking 3 slots on every frigate. After I earn that xp and reach 30k in the pool, 3 slots become open on all frigates, but I have to sail the particular frigate I am interested in to unlock the last two slots on it.

This means that you can sail ANY frigate to gain ship xp that will transfer to other frigates. If you are just leveling up, you will have time to try out different frigates, till you find one you like, and you have not "wasted" any xp unlocking slots on a ship you don't plan on using.

 

To be clear, PvE content is not a bad thing.

Having PvE as the only direct way to get good books is bad.

If we want to keep the many books that we currently have, then I think there should be more ways to get them. Nearly all should be available for sale in the admiralty for Combat Marks. In addition, ALL books could drop from RNG loot of NPCs. Some of the better books, like "Art of Shiphandling," "Book of the Five Rings," "Gunnery Encyclopedia," etc., should only be sold in the Admiralty for PvP marks (or find them through RNG in AI loot). This way you are not forcing players to PvE to have the best books: you can get most through PvE and some RNG luck, and/or supplement this by using your rewards from PvP (you get combat marks and PvP marks for doing PvP) to buy the rest.

Furthermore, I believe that the Permanent Modules should follow the same system: all non-elite modules available for Combat Marks, elite variations available for PvP marks, this is in addition to the current RNG or crafting ways to get them.

Bit of a long post, but it is an important issue in the game.

[Cmdr RideZ]

One of the reason why I quit for now.

I understand some PvE but a mad grind to be competitive in PvP.  I have hard time motivating myself to do that.

[Holm Hansen]

2 hours ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Wow, i honestly wouldn't have expected anybody to vote "because it's fun"!

 

@those who vote "because it's fun":

1. Are you new to the game or are you already playing for a long time?

2. Why is it fun for you?

 

-> I really ask out of interest, not to make fun of you!

What is a game worth without any goals? Where is the motivation if you have all and no chance to improve something for you?

I know, the current way is not the best way to reach them, but its better then nothing. What remain as an long term improvement for a player if that will be removed?

Making gold? ... if you have more than you ever need

Having ships? ... if you have the maximum dock slots filled

Sorry, but in the current state of the game i see nothing other what would be suitable for that.  Should someone have a better idea to subtitute it with other goals, then it would be fine.

[Navalus Magnus]

9 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

What is a game worth without any goals? Where is the motivation if you have all and no chance to improve something for you?

Imo the following would be a suitable answer:

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think grinding for ship slots is fine. But I'd make the things you fill those ship slots with part of a skill tree not the result of loot drop, rarity, RNG Jesus, etc.  The thrill of the lottery should stay in the game but make the rewards superficial (paints, pennants, etc.) or integrate them into the game such that they are still valuable but where there are always pathways via a crafting skill tree, etc. to attaining them.

Players should have the choice to do grinding and PvE, and the rewards should be grand to encourage people to venture out of the safe zones. But the rewards should in no way be tied to competitive aspects of the rest of the game other than through time==skills/xp.

Isn't it?

[znôrt]

ship slots are ok for me, magic upgrades or combos of them hidden behind a wall of grind definitely not.

i'd prefer an accessible customization system that only granted minor and limited advantages, with compromises.

[jodgi]

I don't want to sound negative, pve books makes me really negative...

[Holm Hansen]

On 14.1.2018 at 5:21 PM, Navalus Magnus said:

Imo the following would be a suitable answer:

Isn't it?

That would be a confirmation of my answer. And if a skill tree is introduced here, it would also be right. Much better than random drops. And I also agree that this progress should not give too great benefits. But however, I already see the next survey to abolish this, if the progress in this is filled in the same way.
 

Also, it is quite clear that a pvp player will never be satisfied if he can only achieve this progress in pve-gaming. And that is exactly what the most of answers will affect here.

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Holm Hansen

[Ligatorswe]

I still have not found any valuable books in PVE. And I have played 400 hours after I returned to game.

It kind of sucks. And feels depressive to know. Since generally one has no chances to board one with the book of five wings.

I will try to buy it with victory marks and money. But...

 

:-(
 

[Navalus Magnus]

21 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

The problem is that most people here want to have everything immediately available and do not see that they are depriving themselve of the game goals.

Speaking of myself: I don't need things immediately - besides the Santi i lost yesterday

 

Speaking in generall: But what seems to be frustrating for most of the players is the following:

1. The need of grinding without the certainty of achieving a goal, as it is with the dropping of mighty upgrades by (a very slim) chance.

     It wouldn't be so bad i think, if it just was for things like paints and flags.

2. As seen with the ship xp tree system right after the wipe: There is a threshold seperating enjoyable from the annyoing grind.

     In case of the ship xp slots i think we're not that far away from the 'sweet spot', that keeps people motivated, grinding and enjoying, as we are in case of the rare books dropping by chance.

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Navalus Magnus

[Holm Hansen]

1 hour ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Speaking of myself: I don't need things immediately - besides the Santi i lost yesterday

Speaking in generall: But what seems to be frustrating for most of the players is the following:

1. The need of grinding without the certainty of achieving a goal, as it is with the dropping of mighty upgrades by (a very slim) chance.

     It wouldn't be so bad i think, if it just was for things like paints and flags.

2. As seen with the ship xp tree system right after the wipe: There is a threshold seperating enjoyable from the annyoing grind.

     In case of the ship xp slots i think we're not that far away from the 'sweet spot', that keeps people motivated and grinding, as we are in case of the rare books dropping by chance.

 

I had changed my post and added an important fact.

1 hour ago, Holm Hansen said:

Also, it is quite clear that a pvp player will never be satisfied if he can only achieve this progress in pve-gaming. And that is exactly what the most of answers will affect here.

Is grind then grind when you achieve something along the way and constantly improve with the activity which one you do anyway ?
Or is grind only grind, if you must to do something different for it than you actually want to do? 

As I said in my first post, it may not be the right way to reach those goals.  But to take it out without any replacement I would also think is wrong.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Holm Hansen

[Navalus Magnus]

1 minute ago, Holm Hansen said:

As I said in my first post, it may not be the right way to reach those goals.  But to take it out without any replacement I would also think is wrong.

Yes, i think so too!

And i think that it shows in my posts above - the one you quoted recently for instance, - isn't it?

[Holm Hansen]

43 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Yes, i think so too!

And i think that it shows in my posts above - the one you quoted recently for instance, - isn't it?

correct

Btw:

maybe you should add that as a possible answer in you poll:  "Grind" yes, but in a slightly different way. 
I had missed exactly that and the other possible answers even lesser match with what I wanted.

Not everyone wants to write something about it, and then he rather takes one of the (4!!) negative answers that would completely eliminate the system instead to improve it and make it's acceptable for the most.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Holm Hansen

[Navalus Magnus]

58 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

Btw:

maybe you should add that as a possible answer in you poll

Can you give me an example of how the new option should be named?

[Holm Hansen]

47 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Can you give me an example of how the new option should be named?

Hmm.... not easy ....

Maybe something like that:

" I like char improvements, unlocking new possibilities and achievements during the game! However, the improvements and the way to reach it, should be reconsidered."

(if they were achievable by what you are doing in this game anyway, I would not call it a "grind" either)

Edited January 14, 2018 by Holm Hansen
insert quote

[Guest]

I like that I could play this game 2000 more hours and still have things I need to work towards. It's terrible to sit down and grind out a specific book you want. That's why it's perfectly reasonable to pay someone who already found what you want. 

There is a certain type of player who likes to simply pve and get rewarded with rare drops. That's why they play. 

[jodgi]

2 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

(if they were achievable by what you are doing in this game anyway, I would not call it a "grind" either

A bit tricky to make "forced" pve enjoyable for people who want to PvP.

[jodgi]

2 minutes ago, Flinch said:

There is a certain type of player who likes to simply pve and get rewarded with rare drops. That's why they play. 

We have pve and PvP server. Isn't it weird with PVE exclusive stuff on PvP server? 

[Guest]

I personally don't grind slots in PvE. I do a lot of PvP, and the money I generate from that is/was used to buy the books I wanted. This method is even easier now, because PvP marks are better than gold
Also, I personally find PvP to be much faster for opening up ship slots than PvE. Best example would be with the LGV Refit. At first I tried to unlock slots on it through PvE, but got too frustrated, and just decided to find people to hunt without any slots. In one day of hunting, I had all three of it's slots unlocked. The xp for killing a player is much better than the xp for killing AI (finally!).

[Holm Hansen]

 

44 minutes ago, jodgi said:

A bit tricky to make "forced" pve enjoyable for people who want to PvP.

Correct ....

... but what does it mean:

47 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

... However, the improvements and the way to reach it, should be reconsidered."

...

And sorry, but what you qouted was an answer for the question the post above that, how a possible option in this poll could be named. My bad, i forgot to quote the question.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Holm Hansen

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, EliteDelta said:

The xp for killing a player is much better than the xp for killing AI (finally!).

True. But it is more time efficient to rape bots. PveXP/time > pvpXP/time.

It's not a problem I want to see fixed, it's just how it is.