Is there obligation for PVP server to protect PVE only veterans?

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Agree immensely here. We could take out the term RVR and just use PBs because that's basically all it is. No OW integration at all, no territory to hold, no port spotting, no points of interest. Just bland open ocean that no one wants to fight for.

Not everyone wants to be a solo hunter, some people enjoy the fleet v fleet dynamic but that is mostly only found in PBs and its not realistic nor fun.

Give us OW objectives so we can be actual navies at war and not a bunch of privateers.

 

 

One Importand bit would be that Territory actually means something.

Patrolling Fleets inside your own Territory should Attack Enemy Players that Enter. Granting Hostility if Defeated.

Instead of Calling Reinforcements from Ports. Such Patrolling Fleets inside own Territory should Join to Reinforce Players when they notice Combat within their Range.

 

This would Create an entire New Option for RvR.

A Port would get a Security Rating instead of Hostility.

An Port not really engaged would have a high Security Rating. And would thus have Several Strong Fleets Patrolling its Territory. Reinforcing Players of that Faction and Defending the Territory against any Enemy Players entering the Territory.

If an Large Armada of Enemy Faction Players is Spotted the Port would also Send out Fleets to Attack them.

 

 

For example.

We take 5 Stages for a Port.

 

Stage 1 (When Security Value reaches 0 or close to 0)

Under Siege.

Ports under Siege. Will not have any Patrolling Fleets Left. Any and all remaining Defensive Capacity is inside the Port Preparing for a Defensive Port Battle.

At this Stage the Port Battle will be Initiated.

 

Stage 2 (After a Port has Changed Ownership or has been Defended in a Port Battle.)

Recently Captured/Defended Outpost

Outposts that have been Captured Recently or just Defended themselves Provide only 1 Patrolling Fleet in Direct Vicinity of the Port. (5 km radius) The Fleet having only 5th and 6th Rates as well as maybe a Single 4th Rate.

At this Stage the Port will not be able to be Attacked by Enemy Factions for now. But will also not provide any real Protection as the one Patrol Fleet will only Stay near the Port itself.

 

Stage 3 (When the Port has been Secure for some Days and could thus Build up Security either by gaining it over time or by Players Killing Enemy NPC Fleets in the Area)

Fortified Outpost.

A Forfified Outpost has been able to Establish his Position under the Current Nation. It has been Reinforced by Military Vessels and now is Capable of holding itself.

Having 2 Patrolling Fleets in the Ports Area (10 km Radius) Fleets having a 3rd Rate and several 5th Rates as well as maybe a few 4th Rates. And 1 Patrolling Fleet in Wider Area (15 km Radius) having a 4th Rate and several 5th Rates.

It has a Chance to Spawn a Combat Fleet to Hunt down Enemy Player Fleets inside its area if the Combined Fleed Power of Enemy Players rises too much.

 

Stage 4 (After having been in Peace for fairly Long or having Players Spend massive Efforts in Killing any Enemy NPC Fleets in the Area thus Creating an abundance of Security Rating for the Port.

National Harbor

This Harbor has Established and Fortified itself. It is Firmly in the Hand of the Nation. It will Provide up to 5 Patrolling Fleets that field Ships up to 2nd Rates and which Patrol the larger Area around the Port (20km Radius) + 1 Home Fleet that has a 1st Rate as Flagship and remains in the Port Area (5km)

It will Spawn an Combat Fleet to Hunt down Enemy Player Fleets inside its area. If the Combined Power of Enemy Players in the Area gets too Large.

 

 

Stage 5 (Only Available for Regional Capitals by achieving Large Security Ratings)

Naval Base and Port Cities

Naval Bases and Port Cities are Secured Ports inside the Nations Territory. Attacking them is Suicide as they can have up to 5 Large Fleets Patrolling an Wide Area around the Port (25km Radius) Fleets having 1st and 2nd Rates as well as several other Larger and Smaller Vessels. And will also Send out Large Fleets when Enemy Player Fleets are Spotted inside their Waters to Hunt them Down.

 

 

 

 

This kind of System would not only Give Territorial Wars a Meaning.

It would also Involve PvE Players into RvR as they would Maintain Security by Killing NPC Fleets inside the Port Area.

On top it would create a Situation where Attackers can effectively Remove PvE Protection from a Port by Attacking the Fleets there.
Which will mean that PvE Players got a Fair Chance to Leave the Area while its being Attacked. Or Risk being in a Lower Security Area soon.

Most of all however it would be a far better System than the current Instant Reinforcement in a Small Area.

As Attackers could try to Pass up other Players when there is no Patrolling Fleet Closeby. Or could Overwhelm Defensive Fleets with an Armada.

At the same time however. Anyone Hunting in Secure Waters Risks being Attacked by a Patrol Fleet thus being Disturbed or even Killed.

Especially Ganking Squads would have a hard time Hunting in Secured Ports. Because they might Trigger the Alarms and cause the Port to Send a War Fleet after them.

 

 

This would result in 2 things.

First there would be more Fair PvP. As the Attacker Advantage of bringing far larger Player Numbers to the Field will be reduced due to NPCs Supporting the Defender.

As well as Players actually choosing wether a Target might be worth the Risk of Engaging it.

Making it unlikely that RPKs using Frigates go Hunting Basic Cutters in the Vicinity of Enemy Nations Ports.

 

 

Needless to say it would also Provide an far bigger Dynamic and Meaning towards Controlling Territory.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Historical note, insurance did not pay losses ferried outside the organized convoys. Actually it did for some insurers ( they got very rich at the expense of hasty merchants and smuggling btw ), but was too steep to be practical given it didn't cover full cargo loss, and rarely the ship at half charter value ( not construction value ).

Organized convoys  being the key.

In truth, and talking about "instances", trader vessels that got windward did fall prey to raiders in full view of the convoy escorts that could do nothing to help due to wind. That's how easy we have it in game.

By all means lift all protection areas, spread the resources all over the map, let trade be as essential as war and leave your battles always open ( until they are over ).

Let the navies be navies and not mere "ship museums" with dozens of ships sitting in the docks.

Fair and even playground. One captain, one ship. No protection zones. No NPC fleets. No timers. No F11 coordinates.

Let slip the dogs of war.

 

[Cabral]

8 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

leave your battles always open ( until they are over )

 That only works without nation and global chat, "radio comunications" in this game is already a big help, if used to locate battles... will be a big mess.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

4 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 That only works without nation and global chat, "radio comunications" in this game is already a big help, if used to locate battles... will be a big mess.

I come to the conclusion this is not a discussion about pve/pvp choices but rather a solo vs multiplayer choices, but hey... let slip the dogs of war. Bom Natal moço o7

[Landsman]

6 minutes ago, Cabral said:

That only works without nation and global chat, "radio comunications" in this game is already a big help, if used to locate battles... will be a big mess.

They should make it so the later you join the battle the further away from the fight your spawn will be...

[Sunleader]

21 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Historical note, insurance did not pay losses ferried outside the organized convoys. Actually it did for some insurers ( they got very rich at the expense of hasty merchants and smuggling btw ), but was too steep to be practical given it didn't cover full cargo loss, and rarely the ship at half charter value ( not construction value ).

Organized convoys  being the key.

In truth, and talking about "instances", trader vessels that got windward did fall prey to raiders in full view of the convoy escorts that could do nothing to help due to wind. That's how easy we have it in game.

By all means lift all protection areas, spread the resources all over the map, let trade be as essential as war and leave your battles always open ( until they are over ).

Let the navies be navies and not mere "ship museums" with dozens of ships sitting in the docks.

Fair and even playground. One captain, one ship. No protection zones. No NPC fleets. No timers. No F11 coordinates.

Let slip the dogs of war.

 

 

Thats not Surprising. But also completely irrelevant for this Game. Because the Reason the Raiders were able to Sail against the Wind and Attack the smaller Merchant Ships in plain sight was because they used stuff like Cutters and the Merchant Ships were 7th Rates as well

Which was perfectly Normal. Because the Biggest Ship any Pirate ever Sailed was a 6th Rate Frigate. And that was an Privateer. Usually they Sailed Small Boats near the Coast

 

 

But again. Realism is not really Practical here.

Because Realism is not Fun to Play

And if its not Fun to Play nobody will Play it.

 

As for your Suggestion

There is nothing Fair about that. In Effect a few People currently already Rich and Max level would Rule the Server and be very Alone. 

The Game would likely be Dead within a  few Weeks. Economy Grinding to a Complete Halt. And any non Absolute Hardcore PvPer Embedded in a Clan would leave almost Instantly.

 

Because Playing without being in a Clan or even just while the remaining Clan is Offline. Would be entirely Impossible.

Needless to say that the Players would have nothing to do for most Part and would just be Bored.

 

 

So well yeah.

If you want to have the PvP Server Shut Down before Spring this would be the Best Idea I could think off

 

 

 

You See Mate.

The Reason why I said that Legends suits this kind of PvP Style Game much better. Is because PvPers care for Fighting. Not for the Open World.

So for them fast Fights is Importand. All other is Irrelevant.

And what your suggesting is in effect exactly that. Just in an Incredible Unbalanced Way with alot of Idle Moving over a Large Empty Map

 

 

 

Also just as an sidenote. Real Ships actually had a Navigator and could actually Confirm their Position on the Map. As well as recording their Course

 

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, Landsman said:

They should make it so the later you join the battle the further away from the fight your spawn will be...

 

As I said before.

Why dont you guys Just Suggest that the PvP Server is Closed right away.

Why all the Detours towards Eliminating what little is left of the Playerbase ?

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

On 24/12/2017 at 11:18 PM, Sunleader said:

Thats not Surprising. But also completely irrelevant for this Game. Because the Reason the Raiders were able to Sail against the Wind and Attack the smaller Merchant Ships in plain sight was because they used stuff like Cutters and the Merchant Ships were 7th Rates as well

Was a french frigate in the case I was thinking of. But hey, keep your urban myths close to you, they are comforting

A group of 5 players is sailing all rates. Is engaging in transport of resources through enemy territory, always escorted. Same group is building ships and everything else needed. They also engage regularly in pvp.

Nope. They are not the exception. They embrace the multiplayer nature of the game and play together, plan the cruises together, in sum, they have fun together and evolve together.

Now imagine a clan of 25. or a group of 100.

Those will always always always have the upport hand over the solo player.

Which is what this discussion is about reading all the previous posts. It has nothing to do with pve protection from pvp.

[Sunleader]

22 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Was a french frigate in the case I was thinking of. But hey, keep your urban myths close to you, they are comforting

A group of 5 players is sailing all rates. Is engaging in transport of resources through enemy territory, always escorted. Same group is building ships and everything else needed. They also engage regularly in pvp.

Nope. They are not the exception. They embrace the multiplayer nature of the game and play together, plan the cruises together, in sum, they have fun together and evolve together.

Now imagine a clan of 25. or a group of 100.

Those will always always always have the upport hand over the solo player.

Which is what this discussion is about reading all the previous posts. It has nothing to do with pve protection from pvp.

Group of 100 People....

Have you Checked the Playernumbers lately ?

 

Thats were this Multiplayer *Nature* is driving the Game.

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

You keep denying there's groups of players playing together that achieve the aims they set for themselves. No one can help you there.

And yes, there's groups with more than that. Worldwide communities, so they always have players online  Some play once or twice a week. Others day in day out. Others daily. In the end the community pays off. In the end they all collaborate and have good fun together, as a multiplayer group.

 

[Sunleader]

28 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

You keep denying there's groups of players playing together that achieve the aims they set for themselves. No one can help you there.

And yes, there's groups with more than that. Worldwide communities, so they always have players online  Some play once or twice a week. Others day in day out. Others daily. In the end the community pays off. In the end they all collaborate and have good fun together, as a multiplayer group.

 

Oh I am not denying they exist.

I just asked you if you checked the Playernumbers lately.

You See Mate.

Its all nice that some Groups can enjoy Ganking Sessions.

Unfortunately this results in everyone else leaving the Game.

 

As I said above.

You wont get Solo Players to join a Group.

They Play Solo or they dont Play at all.

If Solo is not Enjoyable they Leave.

 

And the Majority is Solo Players

 

 

 

I dont know what Target these Groups you name have.

But unless its the Target to end up Sitting on an Empty Server and Play with themselves. Its not going to work out if we dont change things

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

All good.

While there was full access to all areas I would sail with a buddy everywhere in my favourite type of ships and playing my favourite act. I would still collaborate with fellows from other groups, in a exchange of plundered cargo for ready ships or other needed assets. 

Now with all protective situations there is little to do as raider, so of course the career changed to flag squadron once more . Still in company and still in collaboration.

Was playing recentle on a normal nation, with safe zone. If I wanted to play solo i would spend my 2 hours with absolutely no problems. Had every resource in the zone and could fight the bots and do the missions peacefully. Very much like the PvE server.

[Sunleader]

6 hours ago, Hethwill said:

All good.

While there was full access to all areas I would sail with a buddy everywhere in my favourite type of ships and playing my favourite act. I would still collaborate with fellows from other groups, in a exchange of plundered cargo for ready ships or other needed assets. 

Now with all protective situations there is little to do as raider, so of course the career changed to flag squadron once more . Still in company and still in collaboration.

Was playing recentle on a normal nation, with safe zone. If I wanted to play solo i would spend my 2 hours with absolutely no problems. Had every resource in the zone and could fight the bots and do the missions peacefully. Very much like the PvE server.

 

Now that one is not the Case.

No Offense Intended on you. But I made the Effort to actually measure this out.

And the Current Safezones are 17km Radius.

Missions with a few Exceptions Spawn around 20-25km

Generally to do Missions inside Safezone you have to be Lucky that the Missions Spawns very Close.

 

Funny but True. In many Cases even inside the Captial Area you cant even get from one port to the next without passing an hostile area

This is very Far Away from being like the PvE Server.

 

 

The Bigger Problem however is that this in the First Place is not really a Good System.

Because lets think about this again.

 

 

PvE Players want to Explore and Achieve stuff. (Grinding NPCs or Trade to become Rich to Craft and whatever other PvE Content we ever get)

PvP Players want to Fight Enemy PvP Players

RPKs want to Raid non PvP Players

 

But in Current System ?

PvE Players are Unhappy cause the small Zones they got are not really Satisfying their Playstyle.

PvP Players are Unhappy cause they got a Giant Zone of Empty Water where its hard to Find anyone else to Fight properly. And where they cant control the Area which results in Fights being 99% Ganking and Griefing rather than actual PvP.

RPKs are Uhappy cause there is barely any Targets. Mostly Preying on lone PvPers that wanted to Fight and end up Ganked and lone PvEers that wanted to Trade.

 

Lets Face it.

With this System all we do is Force People to always stay in a Large Group and not be able to Play unless their Group is Online and with them.

So many Players just dont Play at all.

 

 

Most Games actually just use a System where 2 of these 3 Factions are Happy. The 2 Largest Factions. PvE and PvP

Of course we could aim for a Perfect System where all 3 are Happy as well.

But in any case the current System is not Good.

And no Offense but the System that you Proposed before would result in only RPKs being Happy. And even that only for a Short Time cause short after the Game would Die as all other Players Leave.

 

 

Doing a System where PvPers and PvEers are Happy is Fairly Easy.

You simply make most of the Map Safe. Creating War Zones where PvPers can Fight each other to their Hearts Content.

Thing is RPKs are Unhappy with this cause it means they have a Hard time Hunting for Prey. Because in the PvP Zones there will be lots of Fighters so Ganking is Risky.

And the PvEers wont go into these Zones.

 

A System for all 3 to be Happy is way Harder

One Option would be a System Similar to Silkroad. In Short we make it so that there is Dedicated PvP Zones.

And Remaining World is PvE except certain Conditions are Met.

For example having a certain Value Threshold in your Cargo Hold or you (or your Group) passing a certain Value of BR will Flag you for PvP

Which means that you can remain PvE over the Entire Map as long as you keep an eye out not to pass these thresholds.

While of course alot of the Fast Lanes to Money like Farming Fleets or doing Profitable Trade Routes would Flag you for PvP.

 

Giving Players and Risk Reward Option. Where Just Playing the Game for some small scale Trade and doing normal NPC Hunting and Missions can be done Purely PvE. But where Flagging yourself for PvP will offer Faster ways to Gain alot of Ressources and Money. 

Thus Creating Opportunities for everyone without Forcing anyone into anything.

 

 

 

Thing is Mate.

The one System which will NEVER Work.

Is the Hardcore all in one Direction System that you apparently Want.

Because again. Players Play for Fun. They have the Choice to be here or not.

If you try to Force them into being Content for Others they will Simply not Play the Game. Because its not Fun.

 

Extreme Systems only Catering to one of the Three Player Groups will Always Result in the Game going Dead.

(Except the PvE Group assuming you can provide a constant Stream of additional Content for them as then you can keep em alone but even that is really hard cause then you need to create new Content for them all the Time)

 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

You keep the dead speech. Cannot help you with that.

Second we did already mapped the zones via our sailing raids. You will find the plotted areas in another thread.

Further, some gaps are less than the tag timer when sailing with favourable wind.

So what is the point here ? A PvP Global Village where PvPers defend the PvErs, in a symbiotic collaborative environment or having the groups that engage in multiplayer ( the gods of the sea forbid we play with other people let alone with other players... ) tend and look after the solo player ?

For every solo pver you will have a solo pvper in a "hardcore" environment. Do not fall into the pit of assuming too much about your own particular playstyle. Solo player doesn't mean pver.

That's why we have two nice servers. 

[Sunleader]

17 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

You keep the dead speech. Cannot help you with that.

Second we did already mapped the zones via our sailing raids. You will find the plotted areas in another thread.

Further, some gaps are less than the tag timer when sailing with favourable wind.

So what is the point here ? A PvP Global Village where PvPers defend the PvErs, in a symbiotic collaborative environment or having the groups that engage in multiplayer ( the gods of the sea forbid we play with other people let alone with other players... ) tend and look after the solo player ?

For every solo pver you will have a solo pvper in a "hardcore" environment. Do not fall into the pit of assuming too much about your own particular playstyle. Solo player doesn't mean pver.

That's why we have two nice servers. 

 

The one Keeping up the Dead Speech is you Mate.

You refuse to reason and Stay on your Point like Petrified. Unable to Compromise or even Accept a Viewpoint thats even just slightly different from yours

 

But thats a Different Story.

See Mate. The last point you mention is the Key here.

Because Unfortunately thats not the Case. To begin with there is barely any Pure Solo or Pure Group Players. Most Players just do a Majority of their things either Group or Solo.

And the Fact is. The Vast Majority prefers to Spend 6 of their 10 Hours in a Game Solo.

Which is not Surprising because Groups require a common Consense on what to do. Which is not always happening. So Players will Talk in Teamspeak and be Part of a Group but not actually work together all the Time.

 

The thing that you call Solo PvPer in a Hardcore Environment barely Exists.

They are an incredible small Niche Group. For the Plain reason that you could joke about them requiring an Masochistic Streak. Because Playing Solo PvPer in an Hardcore Environment basicly means. That you Play to Die and Lose 99% of the Times and dont consider that Frustrating.

And that Streak is incredible Rare as 99% of the People will in this Situation just be Frustrated and Leave.

And here is the Problem. Right now. The Environment creates exactly that. An Situation were being Alone is a Death Penalty.

Playing alone is not Fun for 99% of the Players.

And since 80% of the Players do not have a Group to be with at all times. They will limit their Playtime to the time where this Group is available and if no Group is available they will Stop Playing entirely.

 

 

 

Which is why the Facts Disagree with you here. Cause if you Check the Numbers even if we Disregard the Hype of the First few Months. The Game has lost roughly 60% of its Playerbase. (Most of it when they removed Safezones entirely)

And the Numbers keep Dropping.  A Week ago the Loss for the last 30 Days was about 50 People. Now its risen to 80 People and its rising further.

We can Argue about Viewpoints all Day. And you can Stubbornly Stand there and Refuse to Accept Reality.

But neither Reality nor the Statistics are Impressed by your Stubborness to Refuse Accepting them. So the Player Numbers Drop Further.

The Servers got Merged and the Numbers have barely Improved for one Server and have actually Decreased when Viewing the Big Picture.

 

 

 

 

Long Story Short.

Your First Mistake is that you assume that Players will Adapt to the Environment regardless of how bad it is. And that you will thus its just a Question of the Players trying it right. And getting the Right Players. Which leads us to your Second Mistake that you believe that there is roughly Equal amounts of Players for any Environment and that each of them can basicly Run the Game alone.

And thats not the Case.

Players have no Obligation to Adapt to the Environment. If its not Fun to them they Leave. Thats all there is to it.

And the "Hardcore Open World no Rules needed" Players are an incredible small Niche which has throughout the History of Gaming always Failed to Provide enough Players for even a Single Game to Survive longer than but a few Years  

 

So if you want a Game to Survive you either Adapt it far enough that the Players will have Fun Playing it. Or you Fail.

 

[Raf Van Boom]

here is how it goes for most new players, I think:

grind, grind, pvp - get owned, grind, grind, grind (max rank reached), pvp - get owned, pvp - get owned, pvp - get owned, pvp - get owned, grind, grind, hello kitty it.

for the 5% that actually survive that, well, 6 months and you become competitive because you've acquired enough superbooks, supermods, supermarks and superships and experience to compete.

How do you retain people with this?

By the way PvE vs PvP - stupid topic, why not just remove all PvE mods, the need to 'level up' or collect money or whatever. You want something? You go PvP, oh wait, it's called legends.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, boom said:

 

By the way PvE vs PvP - stupid topic, why not just remove all PvE mods, the need to 'level up' or collect money or whatever. You want something? You go PvP, oh wait, it's called legends.

Thats why I dont consider RPKs as PvP Players ^^

The reason they dont play Legends is because there they cant gang rape players that have vastly weaker Ships

 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Standard Mercury just added to collection, faced group of 2 players in Mercuries. They were dealt in less than 20 minutes.

Legends...Vastly weaker ships...

Glad the things learnt in NA pvp applies to Legends.