Reinforcement Zones PVP1/2

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Archaos said:

What about the freedom for people to just do what they want without being ganked? The safe zones are only a small portion of the map, its just that people are so used to finding their PvP there that they cannot accept the change.

It always surprises me that there seem to be so many people who want PvP, yet all of them cannot seem to find it against each other and they want to be able to attack people that are not looking for PvP. I like a good PvP fight as much as the next person but I also enjoy sometimes just killing easy AI's without interruption. Thats the whole point of a sandbox, p[eople can do what they want.

There's a disparity between those two.

One person wants the freedom to PVP everywhere, the other wants the freedom to PVE without PVP. But this is the PVP server of a realistic age of sail sandbox. The sandbox should host the  freedom to PVP over the freedom to be free from PVP because without PVP the server wouldn't hold up. If devs wanted PVErs on the PVP server to PVP in peace, they should give  them their own neutral nation in the gulf away from all PVP, not make the entire server suffer for it.

As players on the PVP server, we provide the content to each other. You getting jumped by 2 frigates in a mission connie is those 2 players content, and you will also reap the same benefit. By making any player safe from any attack you're denying the only worth while content to players, and also taking away from the sandbox and realistic element of 18-19th century naval warfare.

 

[Archaos]

40 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

There's a disparity between those two.

One person wants the freedom to PVP everywhere, the other wants the freedom to PVE without PVP. But this is the PVP server of a realistic age of sail sandbox. The sandbox should host the  freedom to PVP over the freedom to be free from PVP because without PVP the server wouldn't hold up. If devs wanted PVErs on the PVP server to PVP in peace, they should give  them their own neutral nation in the gulf away from all PVP, not make the entire server suffer for it.

As players on the PVP server, we provide the content to each other. You getting jumped by 2 frigates in a mission connie is those 2 players content, and you will also reap the same benefit. By making any player safe from any attack you're denying the only worth while content to players, and also taking away from the sandbox and realistic element of 18-19th century naval warfare.

 

Attacking people that do not want PvP is hardly good PvP, as I said there are a lot of players who only enjoy PvP'ing against unwilling opponents or when odds are stacked in their favor.

[admin]

Players don't attack pvp players who sail to enemy capital and wait stationary NEAR the pier ASKING for a fight. Enemy players just sail by ignoring pvp opportunities that come to them. 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Attacking people that do not want PvP is hardly good PvP, as I said there are a lot of players who only enjoy PvP'ing against unwilling opponents or when odds are stacked in their favor.

PvP in any PvP game is wanted and unwanted. I do also have a character in PvE server for several activities  

[Slim McSauce]

9 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Attacking people that do not want PvP is hardly good PvP, as I said there are a lot of players who only enjoy PvP'ing against unwilling opponents or when odds are stacked in their favor.

Yes but also in your words, people can't find PVP like they could before. Well what do you expect? Ports are the most important thing on the map. When you cut off access to these ports people are forced to look in open waters and random areas for PVP. The only thing you'll find is the random trader, because captains, like in real life, looked at points of interest for enemy captains. They weren't forced to hunt away from civilization.

 

4 minutes ago, admin said:

Players don't attack pvp players who sail to enemy capital and wait stationary NEAR the pier ASKING for a fight. Enemy players just sail by ignoring pvp opportunities that come to them. 

They use to prior to reinforcement zones because they had to. It was either beat back the enemy blockaders or pay the consequences until they get bored. It created very meaningful PVP situations.

If we gave new players a neutral nation to start off in, then we could have this open PVP mixed RVR without the cost of new players getting ganked, just old players who should expect and be prepared for that sort of thing

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

 

They use to prior to reinforcement zones because they had to. It was either beat back the enemy blockaders or pay the consequences until they get bored. It created very meaningful PVP situations.

 

 

i think you did not understand

5 pirates sail to KPR and stand there.. asking brits to attack them to fight 
they are ignored. lineships, 4th rates, multiple other vessels sail by and no-one attacks.

Why they don't attack? PvP (and expensive pvp marks) came to them.. They don't even have to get out of the zone to pvp .

[Slim McSauce]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

i think you did not understand

5 pirates sail to KPR and stand there.. asking brits to attack them to fight 
they are ignored. lineships, 4th rates, multiple other vessels sail by and no-one attacks.

Why they don't attack? PvP (and expensive pvp marks) came to them.. They don't even have to get out of the zone to pvp .

Because in order to get the battle, the brits have to tag the rats, which bypasses the reinforcement mechanic. In other words the brits don't get their free first rate crutch that they're probably now use to.

On the other hand, the pirates can't initiate because then the brits get their AI first rates. So it turns into the posturing contest, the side who makes the first move "loses".

This is apposed to before reinforcements, where the attacking pirates could immediately start jumping ships, and it was the responsibility of the british captains to assemble a defense fleet, or pay by not being able to leave port.

There was an urgency that PVP marks don't replicate

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[z4ys]

12 minutes ago, admin said:

i think you did not understand

5 pirates sail to KPR and stand there.. asking brits to attack them to fight 
they are ignored. lineships, 4th rates, multiple other vessels sail by and no-one attacks.

Why they don't attack? PvP (and expensive pvp marks) came to them.. They don't even have to get out of the zone to pvp .

Same reason I never would attack Liq. Because he is a known pvp player. ;-) Was there ever a fight between @Moscalb and @Liq beside the tournament? I mean both are always looking for a fight why they never meet and fight?

 

And one thing that gets underestimated is confidence. You can show confidence in a smaller ship vs a bigger one and the bigger one will start to run away. So now imagine 5 well kown pirates with a shitload of confidence vs a random bunch of cowardish brits? That means even 1:2 it will be not an even fight ;-)

Its a mind game. We have to much infos. So we lose the battle in our mind before the battle actually has started.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by z4ys

[Hodo]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

i think you did not understand

5 pirates sail to KPR and stand there.. asking brits to attack them to fight 
they are ignored. lineships, 4th rates, multiple other vessels sail by and no-one attacks.

Why they don't attack? PvP (and expensive pvp marks) came to them.. They don't even have to get out of the zone to pvp .

 

The answer is simple.

They are yellow.

[Liq]

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Same reason I never would attack Liq. Because he is a known pvp player. ;-) Was there ever a fight between @Moscalb and @Liq beside the tournament? I mean both are always looking for a fight why they never meet and fight?

 

yes; we have fought several times before, in surps and hermiones - Sometimes he won, sometimes I won

[vazco]

5 hours ago, rediii said:

Lets see this from another point of view.

Imagine it as a new player, you get into a pve clan and live inside your safezone bubble. All the content of conquest and pvp doesnt get in your view so you leave the game unstatisfied becquse it offers no content for you.

Instead get could have a little encouragement doing something outside the safezone. You get into a huge battle or just a nice hunt, you escape or you get caught and just win the battle and feel a big joy to have won it and realize what NA can offer.

 

The difference between local safezone gameplay and "global" gameplay over the map with pvp and conquest is so much different and more. You experience much more content and get in contact with nice people you have fun with (and assholes)

Give carebears and new players the chance and let them experience the world ohtside the safezonebubble please.

 

This is what happens in Commonwealth right now. We had 5 active players in PFK before. Now we have 20. Why?

Now we're the only nation that doesn't have the safezone  or a safe area to do missions in (Russians have Bermuda, which handles this for them. Prussians have Maracaibo, where almost noone can reach). The result is that almost everyone gets contact with PvP, and gets hooked. Once someone shows up, we sail out to fight, as otherwise we wouldn't survive. This activates new people better than a safezone would. We get people coming back to game, and people from other servers join us.

The reason is that it's either easier to find a fight, and that it's fun to cooperate just to survive. If we had those characteristics in the whole game, population would grow. In my opinion we should:

• allow for people to find PvP fight easier (if 5 people stay at 5 different capitals searching for PvP, something is wrong) - by indicating which regions have what number of people
• make fights matter (PvP marks improved it a bit)

 

As for seal-clubbing, safe zone is not the best way to fix it. A better way is to give someone higher reward for killing eg. Liquicity, and no reward for seal-clubbing. Seal-clubbed players could also get money recompensation for their losses. Still, this is not an issue. An issue is that even though many people search for fights, they search in different parts of a map.

[Archaos]

33 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Because in order to get the battle, the brits have to tag the rats, which bypasses the reinforcement mechanic. In other words the brits don't get their free first rate crutch that they're probably now use to.

On the other hand, the pirates can't initiate because then the brits get their AI first rates. So it turns into the posturing contest, the side who makes the first move "loses".

This is apposed to before reinforcements, where the attacking pirates could immediately start jumping ships, and it was the responsibility of the british captains to assemble a defense fleet, or pay by not being able to leave port.

There was an urgency that PVP marks don't replicate

But if so many people want PvP then why in this example does it not happen? Are all the PvP'ers on the same team? Maybe the Brits are not a nation of PvP'ers, well then go to another nation that has PvP'ers.

I think you look back with rose tinted glasses, because, yes that did used to happen where blockading fleets came out and there was some good fights but it did not take long before the meta became, hit a few easy targets and once the defense fleet started forming the attackers would kite in OW till the defenders got strung out or started to give up then turn and tag the remainder or someone who had got too far ahead of the chasers. I know because I spent many hours patrolling outside KPR and seldom got a fight unless they could get me solo. It was not much fun chasing people round the map knowing you could not catch them till they had the advantage.

As someone else mentioned you now have the hardcore nations which have no safe zone, why not go camp there and get plenty of PvP as it seems majority of the PvP'ers have gone to those nations. The effect is the same as if the people who want safe zones went to play on the PvE server.

I have no problems with encouraging people to leave the safe zones or making it more attractive to leave the zones, but forcing people only chases people away from the game.

[King of Crowns]

8 hours ago, Lord Bomgordel said:

This needs more attention, those zones are a pain in the ass on a daily basis for nearly everyone that does pvp.

if you want to pvp you neeed to play legends. this is obviously not a pvp game. its a port battle game and a trading game

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Defeatism takes over ? Insecurity ? Wanting to deny the opponents something ?

Who knows...

Leaving the prolonged campaigns and nation tour in privateer vessels and returning to frigate/heavies level is like having to learn again ( feels great). Shop ships are good enough to sink opponents ( takes a bit more work than a purpose built ) or to be sunk.

The effect of a large hunting squadron is "scaring" most into port, with some notable exceptions.

Maybe the defect is on both sides ? Large roaming squadrons are safe but they send the single ships scurrying to port and find no opposition.

[Slim McSauce]

19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

But if so many people want PvP then why in this example does it not happen? Are all the PvP'ers on the same team? Maybe the Brits are not a nation of PvP'ers, well then go to another nation that has PvP'ers.

I'm sure in this example if the pirates sailed all the way to KPR, they'd most certainly want PVP. Can they get it themselves? No, the British players need to tag THEM or else the pirates get wiped out by reinforcements. The Brits didn't go looking for them, unless the pirates started pestering them with tags, brits have no need to attack an enemy they know they're protected from.

19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

yes that did used to happen where blockading fleets came out and there was some good fights but it did not take long before the meta became, hit a few easy targets and once the defense fleet started forming the attackers would kite in OW till the defenders got strung out or started to give up then turn and tag the remainder or someone who had got too far ahead of the chasers. I know because I spent many hours patrolling outside KPR and seldom got a fight unless they could get me solo. It was not much fun chasing people round the map knowing you could not catch them till they had the advantage.

That is still an issue with kiting, chain/demast/speed meta. but its not an issue that is tied to the blockades.

19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

As someone else mentioned you now have the hardcore nations which have no safe zone, why not go camp there and get plenty of PvP as it seems majority of the PvP'ers have gone to those nations. The effect is the same as if the people who want safe zones went to play on the PvE server.

I have no problems with encouraging people to leave the safe zones or making it more attractive to leave the zones, but forcing people only chases people away from the game.

I don't recall anyone ever asking for those nations. The pirates wanted a redux to theirs, but not this. Why do we need obscure colonial minor nations to be the "PVP" nations when we already have 8 nations who were actually present in the Atlantic, and have just as much of a right to duke it with the freedom and flexibility the game can provide?

Instead of trying to move the PVPers out into 3 new nations, move the newbs and carebears to their own nation, where they can come play PVP at its fullest when they're ready

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, Slim Jimmerson said:

I don't recall anyone ever asking for those nations.

I do. You will find the threads about them if you search.

But regarding the agregation of pvpers...

In truth it is tiresome if you love going out and get into trouble and most of the nation doesn't. Eventually you will make a new character or use the papers to join some nation who does. So polarization happens.

[Archaos]

4 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

That is still an issue with kiting, chain/demast/speed meta. but its not an issue that is tied to the blockades.

I was referring to OW kiting where they came in fast ships and just kited the defenders till they got one alone out of position then attacked. It just led to a lot of chasing around the map for hours with the attackers saying that the defenders brought too many ships out to fight, it was not fun, it just became a chase or a gank. If that is your idea of PvP you can keep it.

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I do. You will find the threads about them if you search.

But regarding the agregation of pvpers...

In truth it is tiresome if you love going out and get into trouble and most of the nation doesn't. Eventually you will make a new character or use the papers to join some nation who does. So polarization happens.

Lets look at global for example. That's a whole server who's nations don't get into trouble. At the time of righting this, a single PVP kill the entire day.

You say go out and get into trouble. Where exactly would a group of 10 eager PVPers go to fight a OW PVP battle? They can't go to capital, freeports don't home a single nation with many members, and any non capital port would be empty of a fleet. Where are they expected to find PVP?

 

@Archaos That's why I mentioned speed meta

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Archaos]

5 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

In truth it is tiresome if you love going out and get into trouble and most of the nation doesn't. Eventually you will make a new character or use the papers to join some nation who does. So polarization happens.

This is true, but if enough PvP'ers are in these new hardcore nations why are they not managing to find PvP among themselves? Why are they set on camping KPR to get their PvP? 

It just seems that PvP'ers can only have fun when seal clubbing or fighting someone who does not want to fight.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Archaos said:

This is true, but if enough PvP'ers are in these new hardcore nations why are they not managing to find PvP among themselves? Why are they set on camping KPR to get their PvP? 

It just seems that PvP'ers can only have fun when seal clubbing or fighting someone who does not want to fight.

Because the solution was never to make hardcore nations to protect noobs and carebears, it was to make a Noob and Carebear nation to keep them from  PVP they aren't ready for

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Not referring to any specific universe, EU or Global, Slim, so let's not discuss that.

Archaos, damn right you are. But in a NA history sense GB has always been the sleeping giant. Although they did police the world once  they are in deep hybernation at the moment. *shrugs*

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Lets look at global for example. That's a whole server who's nations don't get into trouble. At the time of righting this, a single PVP kill the entire day.

I think the problem with Global is more due to the low population. To take it to the extreme if there were only 5 people online and all were in the same team they would never find PvP no matter what the status was of safe zones.

If the servers were full I am sure the safe zones would not be such an issue, especially if they removed rewards and xp from higher ranked players in the safe zone.

The thing is I want a server with lots of PvP, I just disagree with your proposal for achieving it.

[Slim McSauce]

@Hethwill @Archaos 

But no one answered the question, if there are eager a fleet of 10 PVPers, where is the best possible place for them to go to find fleet PVP?

It can't be capital, because capital zones are protected.

It can't be freeport, because freeports are none specific to nations.

See what I'm getting at? How can a server carry itself on PVP when its nearly impossible to find said PVP? I'd like to hear where the devs intend PVPers to go, because current OW setup is making extremely hard, like Archaos said, there's PVPers who desperately want PVP but can't find it without capital blockading

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

@Hethwill @Archaos

But no one answered the question, if there are eager a fleet of 10 PVPers, where is the best possible place for them to go to find fleet PVP?

It can't be capital, because capital zones are protected.

It can't be freeport, because freeports are none specific to nations.

Well with the current low population on servers like Global where it hardly gets above 100 people online, you are talking about 10% of the online population in one team looking for PvP, to even that up you would need at least another 10 people, so 20% of the online population just in one battle. Its just not going to happen.

If those 10 people are so keen to get PvP why dont they split and join different nations, that way they could at least have 5v5. (BTW I am not seriously suggesting that they do that, but it shows how the population is the problem not the safe zones).

There have been numerous other suggestions put forward to increase PvE and trading content in the game to encourage people out of the safe zones, once you get people out of the safe zones then you have your PvP content. The only problem I see with the safe zones right now is that they are to attractive to remain in for PvE missions.

[Slim McSauce]

5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Well with the current low population on servers like Global where it hardly gets above 100 people online, you are talking about 10% of the online population in one team looking for PvP, to even that up you would need at least another 10 people, so 20% of the online population just in one battle. Its just not going to happen.

If those 10 people are so keen to get PvP why dont they split and join different nations, that way they could at least have 5v5. (BTW I am not seriously suggesting that they do that, but it shows how the population is the problem not the safe zones).

There have been numerous other suggestions put forward to increase PvE and trading content in the game to encourage people out of the safe zones, once you get people out of the safe zones then you have your PvP content. The only problem I see with the safe zones right now is that they are to attractive to remain in for PvE missions.

I want to know for EU. If it truly is a population issue and not a game design issue like you say, then EU should have points of interest on the OW that are fought over consistently by the nations, as it would be foolishly unpractical for any clan to assemble a fleet to look in the vast open ocean to look for an enemy fleets.

If there isnt any, or its completely facilitated by Port battles, then I'd say we're not using the OW to its fullest.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson