Patch 14: Part 1 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[Batman]

While I like all the possible maneuvers, I am uncertain if I like the fast turning itself. It feels strange seeing a 2000ton 1st rate drifting around like that.

[King of Crowns]

9 hours ago, rediii said:

Wont change in big battles

In smaller battles and hunting, maybe

"hunting"   LOL

[Quineloe]

1 hour ago, victor said:

Strange: according to what Devs said, the indiaman should not have been changed in its sailing behaviour.

That is not what admin said.

[Quineloe]

I have to say - if rudders were that irrelevant to turning ships as they are in this game version, why were they added to ships back then? They were pretty complicated and expensive.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Quineloe

[King of Crowns]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Turnrate now is too high.

 

Gameplay feels very arcade for me, seeing these huge ships turning like they weight nothing at all is just crazy.

Also thickness was too high before the patch already. Now we have a huge thickness together with realy fast turnrate. This doesnt work well in my oppinion.

its prep work for legends man. game has to be more arcade to make it in the legends setting. this is the test bed for legends. that's why your first rate is drifting like a race car. like it or not.... it is what it is. 

[Simon Cadete]

Does vin diesel show up at the end of the battle after you’ve been drifting for 1 1/2 hours? Can’t wait for next patch we’re they introduce NOS for a little speed boost (will cost 650 pvp marks)

[Farrago]

I think it’s tough to judge until we see the change implemented on all ships but I like the drive for variety.

[George Washington]

Quick patch review:

New physics are awesome. You guys just nailed it, needs slight tune, but god it's so good. I feel like I am back in potbs with my Mercy (Constitution). All what I could do there I can now apply  here in Naval Action. Thank you! Turning is so easy. I suggest you tune auto sailing for new guys, it's not that good. You guys just moved pvp to the whole new level. 

NPC need work as well, but they turn and act natural. 

Congratulations! 

Edited November 21, 2017 by George Washington

[CaptainCaveMan]

9 hours ago, Lord Bomgordel said:

‘only players up to a certain rank’

I think that covers it.

Not even close...but keep licking the window

 

[jodgi]

3 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

its prep work for legends man. game has to be more arcade to make it in the legends setting. this is the test bed for legends. that's why your first rate is drifting like a race car. like it or not.... it is what it is. 

Doesn't matter if admin included red text about tuning, it's all balls to the wall with ulterior motives and pet peeves.

[Malachy]

9 hours ago, victor said:

basically, your ship will loose much  more speed when turning against the wind and you will face the risk that the ship will stop and start turning going backward.

The stop is very brief though and you can use that backward momentum to do some crazy maneuvers

[victor]

19 hours ago, victor said:

@admin

Thanks for explaining the examples of 4th rates (I guess that "Ignoring Indiaman" means that it stays as it is was before)

But for 3rd, 2nd and 1st rates, there will be similar differences between ships (i.e. 3rd rate good upwind vs bellona good downwind, Buce vs St Pavel, Ocean vs Vic vs Santi)?

19 hours ago, admin said:

yes
victory is good at broad reach and closed haul
ocean and santi is good downwind 

@Quineloe I think the yes in the answer is referred also to my first guess, otherwise - since I supposed that Indiaman was not touched - they would have said something about that also Indiaman has undergone some changes.

Edited November 22, 2017 by victor

[The Spud]

19 hours ago, Lord Bomgordel said:

Ok, what realism is next? Reinforcement zones gone/shrinked/or only protecting players up to a certain rank?

YES PLS

PS. Love this patch, GJ

Protecting players up to a certain rank would be a good idea.

[victor]

53 minutes ago, The Spud said:

Protecting players up to a certain rank would be a good idea.

In my opinion, it would be not such a "realistic" feature if a captain in any ship could attack ships of the line and/or trade convoys in front of enemy capitals and the surrounding waters (and survive without fleeing at the very beginning of the combat).

And - TBH - a reinforcement fleet would be sent out by the admiralty more likely in order to protect big ships than to save a simple brig or a schooner.

As devs stated, safe zones with reinfocements around homelands are more historically more accurated than free gank in the same waters (even if only against big ships, so high rank players).

But we are going off topic, I guess.

Edited November 22, 2017 by victor

[Lonar]

37 minutes ago, victor said:

In my opinion, it would be not such a "realistic" feature if a captain in any ship could attack ships of the line and/or trade convoys in front of enemy capitals and the surrounding waters (and survive without fleeing at the very beginning of the combat).

And - TBH - a reinforcement fleet would be sent out by the admiralty more likely in order to protect big ships than to save a simple brig or a schooner.

As devs stated, safe zones with reinfocements around homelands are more historically more accurated than free gank in the same waters (even if only against big ships, so high rank players).

But we are going off topic, I guess.

 

Yes it is realistic there is just the little point that everyone sails ships of the line and because of that it is not working historical. The reason for that would be that the admirality did not have 5 first rates in 1h sailing distance for every ship in the water and the reinforcment would consist of frigates and smaller ships, wich are currentliy useless in most engagements were 4th+ rates are involved.

So to solve the real problem simply make big ships less desirable so that more smaller ships sail around, and then you can also reduce the reinforcment to a realistic level.

Btw. i puke every time when i see 3+ grade hunting ships ....

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lonar

[admin]

11 hours ago, rediii said:

Turnrate now is too high.

 

Gameplay feels very arcade for me, seeing these huge ships turning like they weight nothing at all is just crazy.

Also thickness was too high before the patch already. Now we have a huge thickness together with realy fast turnrate. This doesnt work well in my oppinion.

We are testing better side force and current overall turning is also affected by several other things.

• for example rudder turns could be too high (and rudder turn speed could be reduced)
• inertia is affecting the tacking and overall turning too as you maintain high speed getting closer to win due to inertia and increased turn rates help you pass the danger zones faster
• yard turning speed also need to be lowered, so users start planning maneuvers a bit more ahead

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Yep, but please make small adjustments so we can test them better.

for the next step we will adapt the yard power for lineships using the following modifiers

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction
• Sail area - increases side force due to more power
• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)
• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Looking at all these improvements and re.reading the following papers. It is really something that these are, hopefully, coded in some manner into the game. Not math heavy and really accessible, especially 272. Doesn't take away the gameplay but surely improves the naval age of sail experience.

272 ARTICLE III. THE TIME EMPLOYED BY DIFFERENT VESSELS TO PERFORM THE SAME EVOLUTION, IS PROPORTIONED TO THEIR LENGTHS.

253 Chapter III - OF THE MOST ADVANTAGEOUS ANGLE OF THE SAILS WITH THE KEEL AND THE WIND

258 - Article III - A TABLE OF THE SITUATION OF THE SAILS TO RUN WITH THE GREATEST VELOCITY.

vide in http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/the-elements-and-practice-of-rigging-and-seamanship/seamanship-vol-ii/

[HachiRoku]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

for the next step we will adapt the yard power for lineships using the following modifiers

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction
• Sail area - increases side force due to more power
• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)
• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

Just please make the endymion the God she was. There will always be a speed meta ship but maybe it's best if the endymion is that by design. Hull and sail hp is already low enough to make up for her speed. 

[van Veen]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

for the next step we will adapt the yard power for lineships using the following modifiers

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction
• Sail area - increases side force due to more power
• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)
• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

Thank you for the patch and balancing the physics. 

I also have the impression that turn rates are too high for the lineships. I do understand that 5th rates and below are still not yet updated. However, in absolute values turn rates of lineships should be lower, not only in relative values compared to other ships. 

Can you please check the parameters and elaborate on how they are applied in the physics?

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction

In fluid dynamics it's called "drag", not "friction", but nevermind 

• Sail area - increases side force due to more power

Does depowering have an impact? If yes, how much?

• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)

Can you explain your lever effect, please? From my understanding of physics (and practical sailing experience) a longer hull produces more drag force to the side and also towards turning. The "lever effect" of a longer hull is actually reducing the turn rate, not increasing it!

• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

The acceleration to the side should be reduced by additional weight, not the force. 

 

Perhaps there is a misconception somewhere. But if your comments to length and weight are actually true to what is implemented in the sailing physics, there is something wrong. Please double check. I might also have understood something wrong 

Inertia is also a nice topic I'd happily discuss with you! 

[King of Crowns]

11 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Just please make the endymion the God she was. There will always be a speed meta ship but maybe it's best if the endymion is that by design. Hull and sail hp is already low enough to make up for her speed. 

the endy could use some loving that's for sure. and so could the fatty. 

[balticsailor]

13 minutes ago, van Veen said:

Perhaps there is a misconception somewhere. But if your comments to length and weight are actually true to what is implemented in the sailing physics, there is something wrong. Please double check. I might also have understood something wrong 

Inertia is also a nice topic I'd happily discuss with you! 

When it come to turning you have the rotational inertia which is a depending on the body's mass distribution for the rotation axis,

you have the lever arm for the drag

and you have the lever arm for the acting sail force,

as well as the rudder force.

So in this case a longer hull has a bigger resistance to turning, but since the mast are further apart the lever arm for the sail force is bigger.

[Corona Lisa]

I dont understand why the Consti is fastest at 110° and slower at 135°

[van Veen]

5 minutes ago, balticsailor said:

When it come to turning you have the rotational inertia which is a depending on the body's mass distribution for the rotation axis,

you have the lever arm for the drag

and you have the lever arm for the acting sail force,

as well as the rudder force.

So in this case a longer hull has a bigger resistance to turning, but since the mast are further apart the lever arm for the sail force is bigger.

Totally agree. 

It's not helpful to talk about forces anyway, when it's actually momentum that matters. I assumed that position of sails and rudder are already taken into account and a turning momentum is calculated. 

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

I dont understand why the Consti is fastest at 110° and slower at 135°

constitution has the lowest % of square sails of all 4th rates and above