Opinions of a Newcomer

[TheHaney]

Ahoy folks, I've been engaged in this lovely experience for a few days now and have been reading the forums for a week or so prior to that, and I thought I'd toss in my two pennies' worth of talk now that I have my feet slightly damp. Most of this is very likely exhaustively covered elsewhere on the forums, but honestly I can't stand reading a lot of stuff on here because of the caustic salt levels of some people.

 

- The new player experience is, obviously, terrible. For a litany of reasons that don't need to be recounted here.

- The existing playerbase, at least on the forum and subreddit, seem to lean heavily towards bitter salt. Potential buyers SEE this and it's a huge turn-off. Especially on the subreddit, I see a lot of arrogance, a lot of contempt, a lot of stubborn refusal to compromise. Essentially I see a lot of middle-aged guys steadfastly believing their opinion is the best opinion, at the expense of the game they allegedly enjoy.

- There is nothing significant to do in-game while traveling in the OW. You can't review your ship stats or the stats of your fleet, no viewing access to outposts, etc.

- The first two hours of the game (IE the steam refund window, IE the "will I keep this" cutoff for a huge number of buyers) offer no significant impactful gameplay unless the new player knows exactly what to do and 1) doesn't take a mission he shouldn't 2) doesn't attempt to travel somewhere else 3) doesn't get ganked.

These four reasons, in my opinion, are primary contributors to the lack of player acquisition and early player retention.

 

Continuing:

- There seems to be a schism in the community between people that want absolute realism (and use it as a defense against / argument for any change), and people that understand that realism at the expense of gameplay, especially in an MMO, is a great way to kill a game. Ya gotta have quality-of-life systems in place, even if you feel like it should really take weeks to sail from A to B.

- There are a ridiculous number of factions in the game, which seems to be a horrible idea given the small playerbase available. I've seen the same names, over and over again, in nation chat since I've started. And no one else. Fragmenting an already tiny playerbase this much isn't healthy.

- Development of the game seems to be very slow, and the studio has been actively developing a different version of the game. Regardless of assurances this is obviously alarming to those playing the base game. That, and the fact the game has been in development long enough to officially join the "will probably never actually get finished" club.'

- There's surprisingly little to do in the game. You have a couple of mission types (that are extremely repetitive), general hauling, PVP and port battles. There's no flavor, no "quests", no storylines to follow. Given the time in development and the fact this is supposed to be an MMO that's not enough content to keep players interested. If the playerbase was larger the politics of an open-world PVP game would, in theory, be self-sustainable. But you don't have that, and the players you DO have are split into a dozen factions and three separate servers.

These four reasons, in my opinion, are primary contributors to the low retention rates of longtime players.

 

Anyway. That's my bit, had to get it off my chest. Personally I'm enjoying my time but I can feel the time limit on that enjoyment; between the uncertainty of the game's future and the general lack of playerbase and content, I know I will very likely put the game down after 200-300 hours. I have dozens of ideas as to how the above could be fixed, but again I assume this has been exhaustively covered so I won't bore y'all with my brain droppings beyond what's already here.

Edited November 15, 2017 by TheHaney

[Hodo]

Thank you for the write up, and it is very accurate.  

Hopefully the developer reads it and takes it to heart instead of being offended by things like this, as he typically is.

[George Washington]

Very nice review, thanks, but I want to add something here. 

People who wanted realism caused first massive player loss because Devs used polls and listened to them. Second was when Developers did not plan well and started changing things too unexpectedly. In other words they started building game from it's last component and not first. Last pre-release player loss is happening right now as we speak due to lack of content, UI and tutorials. To untrained eye, game looks exactly the same as it looked 2 years ago. There is nothing we can do at this point, but Devs can. They can write a nice letter to every customer and gift them shiny new ships, level boosters and invite them back when game is ready. However, if game is in the same shape as it used to be when people left it will make no difference at all and eventually NA will sink. 

I personally think NA needs a good Artist to make this game stand out. Then introduce UI and Tutorials and only after Introduce more pve content. I really like how mark exchange works, big variety of mods and ships, but we still missing pve core. This includes variety of Fleets on OS. There are only about 25% of all ships used in fleets.  What happened to the rest? Indiamans escorted by Ingermans for example. Their loot, chests, treasures, quests... etc... 

I mean it's a good start, but it's not enough. It will not keep players for long. Devs need to ask public to help them build quest stories. They will be surprised how creative people are. We are here for them, all they need is ask for ideas. 

In the end, Devs need to also consider Server merge. 1 day allow EU to flip ports and fight another day allow US , Asia etc..  it will be fun. 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[TheHaney]

My worry is that the developer is burned out on the game. It seems that a lot of mistakes were made, a lot of players left, and the level of discontent is high. There are some great recent examples of indie developers pushing through that and coming out on top, like Keen Software House in Prague with Space Engineers (which wasn't always a success) and Sauropod Studios in Montreal with Castle Story (which spent years as a festering shitpile of scorn before getting good). There are also examples of developers that slammed facefirst into a wall of criticism and were too broken to try again.

 

Hopefully this developer gets the kind of angry that causes them to push forward, rather than pull away.

Edited November 15, 2017 by TheHaney

[George Washington]

7 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

My worry is that the developer is burned out on the game. It seems that a lot of mistakes were made, a lot of players left, and the level of discontent is high. There are some great recent examples of indie developers pushing through that and coming out on top, like Keen Software House in Prague with Space Engineers (which wasn't always a success) and Sauropod Studios in Montreal with Castle Story (which spent years as a festering shitpile of scorn before getting good). There are also examples of developers that slammed facefirst into a wall of criticism and were too broken to try again.

 

Hopefully this developer gets the kind of angry that causes them to push forward, rather than pull away.

I think what they are doing is they chasing quantity that eventually will supply quality. 

[George Washington]

3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I like to see that a new player realizes that the lack of pve content and ow emptyness is something that needs urgent fix. Way more important that some things that are in priority list now.

And increasing nations just was a strange move that the game didnt really need. 

It was a money grab and future foundation for something that is coming. There is still money left in Asia, but we need to figure out how all these time zones can work together. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

What is coming?

We will know soon enough. You have to realize Devs sat quietly for too long and we do know from past that they have secret projects or maybe I am wrong and they gave up on NA. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[Niels Terkildsen]

I think a very basic tutorial would go a long way. Just a simple combat instance demonstration: introduction to the UI elements, how to manoeuvre your ships, how to fire you cannons, how to board, how to capture ships, etc. I know these things can be found on YouTube, but they really need to be in the game, especially in a game like NA with such a relatively steep learning curve.

I suppose the developers want to finish the new UI first, but who knows how long that'll take?

Edited November 15, 2017 by Niels Terkildsen
"You should go through your sentences for errors before posting"

[George Washington]

2 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

I think a very basic tutorial would go a long way. Just a simple combat instance demonstration: introduction to the UI elements, how to manoeuvre your ships, how to fire you cannons, how to board, how to capture ships, etc. I know these things can be found on YouTube, but it really needs to be in the game, especially for a game with such a relatively steep learning curve.

I suppose the developers want to finish the new UI first, but who know how long that'll take?

Well, UI is not an easy task. All values , explanations, buttons must be in order. I just hope they finalized everything and already on the finish line. Fingers crossed. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[Christendom]

Fair assessment and pretty much what has been echoed on the forums here for a long time.  While the game has gotten better over the past couple of months, I don't think those changes have translated well for the new player experience.  They might have even made it worse.  

The lack of missions/quests (PVE content) and the abundance of nations seems to be the key problems here honestly.  

[Batman]

Goo post from OP. Sadly many things have been mentioned several times and nothing changed.

[George Washington]

4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Fair assessment and pretty much what has been echoed on the forums here for a long time.  While the game has gotten better over the past couple of months, I don't think those changes have translated well for the new player experience.  They might have even made it worse.  

The lack of missions/quests (PVE content) and the abundance of nations seems to be the key problems here honestly.  

They could just use a twisted mirror image of Jack Aubrey story in this game as a main storyline. It would kick ass so much and make this game a hit, but it's little too late and NA is still sinking. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

5 minutes ago, Batman said:

Goo post from OP. Sadly many things have been mentioned several times and nothing changed.

We don't know that yet. Devs kept things secret for a long time. They do not share screens no more and get bashed for that. They play smart. That is why I believe there is something good coming soon. After all Christmas without presents is not a Christmas. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[Christendom]

5 minutes ago, George Washington said:

They could just use a twisted mirror image of Jack Aubrey story in this game as a main storyline. It would kick ass so much and make this game a hit, but it's little too late. 

I guess.  A simple variety in missions might be a good start.  "Kill 3 trade ships in the x region".  Sail to this location and recover this shipwreck.  Sail to Beaufort and bring 200 logs to Charleston.  Something like that.  If there was an option to have player created delivery missions I'd love to use new players to haul my shit back and forth.  

It seems like in the mission and new player development aspect of the game the @admin says....this is a sandbox, it's up to you.  But then in other stages of the game it's not a sandbox and we have timers and various restrictions...can't attack your own nation.  No reputation system.  The game tries to straddle the line between a sandbox MMO and an Combat sim, but not really achieving either one.  

Edited November 15, 2017 by Christendom

[TheHaney]

I also want to point out that there are some very good people on the forums as well (I got a lot of great info from that naval tactics guide thread) and I've not met a single nasty player in-game; everybody I've spoken to in nation chat has been friendly, helpful and willing to provide advice and information. It's honestly almost suffocating; I don't think I've had to pay for a single ship or upgrade yet. People are literally delivering newly built ships to me because they are so desperate for new players to stay.

[George Washington]

3 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

I also want to point out that there are some very good people on the forums as well (I got a lot of great info from that naval tactics guide thread) and I've not met a single nasty player in-game; everybody I've spoken to in nation chat has been friendly, helpful and willing to provide advice and information. It's honestly almost suffocating; I don't think I've had to pay for a single ship or upgrade yet. People are literally delivering newly built ships to me because they are so desperate for new players to stay.

That is because these fans hold Naval Action alive. They understand the potential here and they believe that one day this product will be what they want it to be - a success.

Edited November 15, 2017 by George Washington

[admin]

2 hours ago, TheHaney said:

 

- Development of the game seems to be very slow, and the studio has been actively developing a different version of the game. Regardless of assurances this is obviously alarming to those playing the base game. That, and the fact the game has been in development long enough to officially join the "will probably never actually get finished" club.'

 

This statement is incorrect for 2 reasons
1) The development is very fast for 2 programmers and 2 artists. Its just when the server code or speed curve bugs or systems are prepared for easier design work you probably don't see it and don't consider its necessary. Some player once even said that Bucentaure (the legendary french ship) is not content. Ships are the main content on the game and multiple new ships were delivered over last several months. It takes HUGE effort to make and add them. You probably don't know that it takes up to 60 man days to integrate ONE ship into the game - thats why most other sailing games ships look like shit, they just don't care. I hope you do.
2) The game is live so we have to make things work which forces us to actually spend a lot of time stabilizing code because we can't just say - early access all your assets were lost yesterday. 70% of time is spent on Quality assurance. 


The other statements depend on the position - the game shines in pvp and conquest, captains who stop doing pve and start fighting other captains never run out of content after that. This game is about age of sail ships - ships are content. there is no other content in game and we don't pretend there is. Ships are complex and amazing. all other content is basic (its on green light promise on steam page and we never backed down or backed out of this promise)

[jodgi]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

captains who stop doing pve and start fighting other captains never run out of content after that.

YES!

You can throw PVE stuff at them and it's only a rather short matter of time before they've exhausted it and are gaping for more.

"The Fight" gives and never stops giving.

[znôrt]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

1- it takes up to 60 man months to integrate ONE ship into the game

2 - ships are content. there is no other content in game and we don't pretend there is.

just making sure, point (1) is not a typo?? 

about (2) ... i was hoping for storms some day 

[admin]

2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

YES!

You can throw PVE stuff at them and it's only a rather short matter of time before they've exhausted it and are gaping for more.

"The Fight" gives and never stops giving.

i think we should adjust statements on steam page a bit (which are very basic anyway) to actually explain that the main content is sinking other real captains who are diverse and hard and are all different and even talk to you like real people in chat (amazing for ai

[TheHaney]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

*snip

 

Thank you for the response.

I appreciate the corrections and the information, especially as I didn't know it was only two programmers! That being said, I'm a workflow analyst by trade and 60 man months per ship is quite the commitment! That seems excessive to the point that maybe it's not the best expenditure of time? Personally I think the current lineup is great, but I've only gotten as far as the Renommee. Do you have any plans to expand your staff in the near future?

In regards to content, I suppose it's nice to hear definitely that new content other than the ships themselves will not be a focus. Certainly not what I was hoping for, but I can appreciate the position. Given that your steam page talks about "Community Driven Development", have the posts concerning PvE content/quests/storylines altered your position on this at all?

In regards to PvP'ers never running out of content... this concept concerns me. If you want a game that revolves entirely around PvP content, a slow-paced economic open world MMO seems like a very roundabout way to achieve that. Also, isn't that what Legends will essentially be? Pure PvP?

[z4ys]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

...

The other statements depend on the position - the game shines in pvp and conquest, captains who stop doing pve and start fighting other captains never run out of content after that.

...

I like to add its a sandbox. You can make yourslef a ruleset and try to stick to them. It can be very challenging and for me it never gets boring. So far I had a rulechange at every wipe. Its really fun

Edited November 15, 2017 by z4ys

[admin]

4 minutes ago, znôrt said:

just making sure, point (1) is not a typo?? 

 

1. basic hull
2. textures
3. materials
4. running rigging
5. standing rigging
6. sails animations (must work with rig)
7. mast animations (must work with rig)
8. flags and flag animations
9. destruction model
10. sinking model
11. placing crew in side the ship (hit colliders)
12. placing cannons and carriages and their colliders
13. placing magazines and internal masts connectors
14. placing rudders and other internal modules
15. adjusting hull thickness (it is indeed different on top and bottom)
16. sailing models and curves (for each sail)
17. progression and cannon placements (each must fit perfectly in the port)
18. adapting materials for all weather presets to look good
19. skins
20. checking for bugs
21. fixing and fixing bugs
22. checking for ship crashing
23. checking for texture memory and bandwidth
24. now half of this things should be copied to the server ship model and checked again

[admin]

10 minutes ago, znôrt said:

just making sure, point (1) is not a typo?? 

about (2) ... i was hoping for storms some day 

Typo))) 

60 man days for integration part   of course not months. 2 man months

[admin]

6 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

 

Thank you for the response.

I appreciate the corrections and the information, especially as I didn't know it was only two programmers! That being said, I'm a workflow analyst by trade and 60 man months per ship is quite the commitment! That seems excessive to the point that maybe it's not the best expenditure of time? Personally I think the current lineup is great, but I've only gotten as far as the Renommee. Do you have any plans to expand your staff in the near future?

shit yes :)) sorry

2 man months to ONLY integrate (60 man days)