[Poll] Rum

[Quineloe]

Crew is currently too easily killed and too easily healed.

[Christendom]

I enjoyed where a good stern rake would knock out an opponent from a PB or a fight.  Similar to repairs, there used to be strategy and consequences to how you played this game in fights.  Now with unlimited repairs and crew, there isn't.  I've been in situations where i've killed a 1st rates crew twice over, it's absurdly stupid.  Unlimited crew, repairs and nearly free wasa's have kinda turned PVP into a routine.  The lack of variety now is so boring.  

Bring back the older system, 1 hull - 1 rig - 1 rum use (or bring back press gang).  Get rid of the speed cap.  PVP would be 10x better.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

Big ships cant prevent rakes that much even if they do 0 mistakes. Without Rum and the current amount of crew killed its kind of a frigatemeta.

You're not wrong at all.

Every ship is vulnerable to rakes but slow line ships have the hardest time minimizing raking damage by maneuvering.

Is it wrong for frigates to have a leg up against big ships? The power triangle of protection, guns and crew is already tremendous in favour of big ships. If we think in balancing terms and equal skill players the frigates have almost no chance. (It happens in OW because of silly players with silly choices and little pvp training).

"Historically frigates shouldn't have much hope against line ships."

Well, ok, but for I game I think it makes it more FUN.

I'm ok with some noob protection, but massive amounts of crew healing is simply overboard.

[Rigs]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

It is the only thing that makes lineships in small battles still strong.

Lineships should be strong.

 

I think we should keep it.

I completely agree, the lineships need a buff and not the other way around.

It's a fact that Lineships punish mistakes exponentially more than small ships and how many Prince's I can make for the price of a lineship?

Skill and Risk vs. rewards?

Why would anyone even use a lineship anymore? 

[IndianaGeoff]

5 hours ago, Rigs said:

I completely agree, the lineships need a buff and not the other way around.

It's a fact that Lineships punish mistakes exponentially more than small ships and how many Prince's I can make for the price of a lineship?

Skill and Risk vs. rewards?

Why would anyone even use a lineship anymore? 

Yes, I fear that my training in them is wasted.

Maybe lineships should have credible fleets around them.  You never sailed a 1st out alone in dangerous waters.

[Fargo]

7 hours ago, rediii said:

So you rather have no/almost no crewdamage than rum? I dont understand.

Didnt the buc or something rake the victory in trafalgar and killed/wounded hundreds in a single rake?

If you take rum out of the game I also vote that lineships do more damage. A frigate atm can easily tank 1 lineship with angling/bow tanking. That shouldnt be possible too then and the frigate should take real heavy damage from 1 broadside, even angled.

Nobody talks about no crewdamage. In the past e.g. there was no crew repair and you had to do more damage to an enemy. I could still fight back against multiple smaller ships, while those were able to efficiently rake me down if i mess up. On the other side penetration was way more realistic (powerful) back then, and shiphandling different. Just a question of balancing. Arent you always arguing for skill? This is what makes skill matter.

Penetration is provably way too low if supposed to be realistic (Historical gunnery - Realistic ballistics and cannon performance of the period.), while accuracy is way too high. I do think this should change, and frigates shouldnt be able to tank such heavy guns so easily. I would prefer cannons to feel powerful as they were, because thats immersive. In reality a frigate so close to a lineship would also face lots of musket fire, this could be implemented atleast by numbers without  visual effects and anything. Difference in height would result in very difficult boarding. Atleast a lone frigate should have a much harder time against a lineship.

[Malachy]

These polls are bogus because it boils down to two groups. Those who gank and those who have been ganked. The victims are always going to want more and frequent repairs. Those who like to gang up on people and hide behind  numerical superiority are going to want repairs limited because that affects a group far less than an individual. I freely admit that I've been ganked and have ganked folks. It's fine As is. Developers have already given grouped players too many advantages over a single player imho. 

What needs to happen is the battle stays open for the defender until defender BR is equal to attacker BR. 

@admin

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Malachy said:

These polls are bogus because it boils down to two groups. Those who gank and those who have been ganked. The victims are always going to want more and frequent repairs. Those who like to gang up on people and hide behind  numerical superiority are going to want repairs limited because that affects a group far less than an individual. I freely admit that I've been ganked and have ganked folks. It's fine As is. Developers have already given grouped players too many advantages over a single player imho. 

What needs to happen is the battle stays open for the defender until defender BR is equal to attacker BR. 

@admin

Ever wondered why it seems like it's all about gankers and those getting ganked? It's because these kind of anti-ganking measures have killed off any chance you had in near-equal fights, thus promoting ganking even more because there's no other choice left.

...

Let's illustrate.

Say, for example, that the developers of EVE Online thought that there was too much ganking going on. In response, they built in, say, 3-5 warp core stabilizers in every ship to allow ganked players a better chance of escaping (much like multiple repairs allow a better chance of escaping groups in NA).

The outcome? Solo PvP and near-equal fights die off because you can't stop the other ship from escaping. You'd need a 3-5x player advantage just to break even and make it worth attempting, ideally even more, which makes ganking the only venue left and the more unfair it is the better.

Now couple that with a capped max speed - making battleships just as fast as interceptors - and you have a right proper mess where neither ship can catch the other - even if it has been their dedicated role. And without the depth of mechanics to cope with it in any way.

That's the soup that NA is swimming in.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Guest

[IndianaGeoff]

Aegir... Bull.  When it was easy mode for gankers this summer, server populations crashed.  Did gankers go off and beat up each other?  Nope.  They camped deeper and deeper in to capital waters looking for any scraps that were left.

Edited November 4, 2017 by IndianaGeoff

[IndianaGeoff]

The problem with endless repairs is how long it stretches out a battle.  Having a lot can be a tactical advantage, but it often does not change the outcome and just makes a 45min fight last an hour and a half.  Or longer if there are multiple battles.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Aegir... Bull.  When it was easy mode for gankers this summer, server populations crashed.  Did gankers go off and beat up each other?  Nope.  They camped deeper and deeper in to capital waters looking for any scraps that were left.

I suspect that you didn't quite get my point since you haven't actually refuted it. This isn't about reinforcement zones.

[IndianaGeoff]

17 minutes ago, Aegir said:

I suspect that you didn't quite get my point since you haven't actually refuted it. This isn't about reinforcement zones.

Equal fights are not desired by gankers.  Even when faced with zero fights, they chased non existent easy kills over "fair" fights with equals.

[AngryPanCake]

Throwing this out there:

It appears that players are focused on getting mods that increase speed, stacking every little advantage that would make a ship faster than any other ship. I saw lots of posts about capping/not capping speed...etc. Which leads me to think about instead of limiting/capping speed, hull/rig repairs, rum, instead make people think hard about what they want their ship to be used for.

What about a perk or a mod that reduces casualties instead of "reviving" killed sailors with Rum? Having different levels of Naval Surgeons that would reduce casualties from enemy fire.This would add strategic thinking about making choices: you want to stack up speed mods or not place so many of them and leave room for Crew protection mods/perks.

People are already doing this when crafting ships, they choose woods according to what they want to do with certain ships: Speed, HP, thickness...etc

So, maybe apply that same thinking towards repairs and crew.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AngryPanCake

[Guest]

8 hours ago, AngryPanCake said:

Throwing this out there:

It appears that players are focused on getting mods that increase speed, stacking every little advantage that would make a ship faster than any other ship. I saw lots of posts about capping/not capping speed...etc. Which leads me to think about instead of limiting/capping speed, hull/rig repairs, rum, instead make people think hard about what they want their ship to be used for.

What about a perk or a mod that reduces casualties instead of "reviving" killed sailors with Rum? Having different levels of Naval Surgeons that would reduce casualties from enemy fire.This would add strategic thinking about making choices: you want to stack up speed mods or not place so many of them and leave room for Crew protection mods/perks.

People are already doing this when crafting ships, they choose woods according to what they want to do with certain ships: Speed, HP, thickness...etc

So, maybe apply that same thinking towards repairs and crew.

We already have that in the form of ship mods, e.g. Iron Knees, Crew damage reduction of around 15% if I remember correctly, and another mod whose name I don't recall.

Thing is, you can penalize speed mods to hell and back, hitting the speed cap (or as close to it as possible) is still what enables you to flee from multiple enemies while a few percentages here and there wont matter much since you can dictate what fights to pick accordingly and doesn't make much of a difference if you get caught.

Off the cuff though, if it was to be done, then perhaps a speed mod could come at a turn rate penalty, effectively making it so that the more you rely on speed the less able you will be to deny incoming damage by maneuvering (bouncing shots, stern camping and such). However, that doesn't address overly fast ships that simply dont need to rely on that such as the Wasa.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Guest

[Barbancourt]

Distributing large amounts of rhum should cause huge penalties as the crew gets more and more drunk.

 

[Guest]

I hate how a devastating rake can just be shrugged off with the press of a button to rum back up. In a duel vs. a wasa (I was sailing a conni) I had several perfect rakes, which had taken time to position correctly, and they were instantly countered by rum to go back to full crew. In that fight I killed 850+ men on the wasa, and at the end of the fight (time expired) he still had 300 men. 

Rum is clearly healing too much, but people aren't wrong about the damage grape does. Here's a suggestion - What if we limited grape shot, similar to how we limit double shot and double charge? 

I personally would prefer chain/grape/double shot/double charge to all be limited (maybe different amounts depending on the shot type) and then chop down the power of rig repairs and rum. That's a bit off topic though

Edited November 6, 2017 by Guest

[Jean Ribault]

Having a hard time voting, because I'd like another option.  I chose Other.  Realism is overrated probably, I agree.  But I'd still rather eliminate the whole idea of magic rum restoration, and have a ship's surgeon as an added upgrade, and then have the surgeon be upgradable as well, or even an upgrade perk somewhere with that.  Surgeon would have limitations, but fewer limitations when he gets upgraded.  If rum were kept I'd like to see it more limited, since killing crew is a strategy, but first choice would be a real surgeon only.

[IndianaGeoff]

8 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

Distributing large amounts of rhum should cause huge penalties as the crew gets more and more drunk.

 

That is why you need Tobacco and dried meats to go with it.

Ah, the good old days.

[Zoky]

Putting rum on global cd should do the trick

[Corona Lisa]

@admin Do u plan to tweak rum?

[Grundgemunkey]

crew losses are far too high in game ... reduce the amount of crew losses get rid of crew repairs altogether ... it will stop the stern rake meta ...

USS Constition v Hms Java battle lasted around 4 hours .. connie lost 9 killed and 57 wounded ... Java lost 22 killed 102 wounded

stern raking a ship and getting 50 -60 casualties at every pass .. is  ridiculous .so is the ships doctor been able to revive them all

Edited November 7, 2017 by Grundgemunkey

[Hodo]

On 11/7/2017 at 6:07 AM, Grundgemunkey said:

crew losses are far too high in game ... reduce the amount of crew losses get rid of crew repairs altogether ... it will stop the stern rake meta ...

USS Constition v Hms Java battle lasted around 4 hours .. connie lost 9 killed and 57 wounded ... Java lost 22 killed 102 wounded

stern raking a ship and getting 50 -60 casualties at every pass .. is  ridiculous .so is the ships doctor been able to revive them all

There was also no rake performed in the Constitution vs Java.  Those were broadside exchanges.  And seeing as the HMS Java had 397 men on board, losing 124 of them is a BIG deal... that is 1 in 3 men injured or dead.   While the Constitution lost 66 men, out of 450. 

In the USS United States vs HMS Macedonia.  The USS United States, removed two of the masts of the Macedonia before the Macedonia could even bring its guns to bare.  The HMS Macedonia lost 114men (43 dead 71 wounded), the USS United States lost 12 men (7 dead, 5 wounded).

This is roughly 1 in 3 men on the Macedonia dead or wounded.

HMS Confiance vs USS Saratoga.  It lost 41 dead and 83 wounded.  It had been hit between 250-300 times by cannon shot, and countless grape.   It had a 7ft hole in the waterline from a shot that penetrated.  

 

[Captain Pinky]

For me the rum is absolutely horrendous.  I saw a player in a decent sized sluggish ship outplay a guy in a wassa despite being outmanouvered. The wassa however had a million bottles of rum and repairs and kept repairing and zombie rumming his crew. As a new player it looked unfair, wasn't " fun" and rewarded the less skilled player. The final nail in the coffin for me was when he boarded with less sailers. But then used rum again and magically got a few hundred more sailors again and then won the boarding...

I honestly don't see how anyone could see the rum as fun, promoting skill or fair. It rewards the guy who can stall the battle (faster ship) And who carries the most rum.

[jodgi]

9 hours ago, Captain Pinky said:

The final nail in the coffin for me was when he boarded with less sailers. But then used rum again and magically got a few hundred more sailors again and then won the boarding...

The proponents call that skill in managing and timing rum/repairs.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Hodo]

15 hours ago, Captain Pinky said:

For me the rum is absolutely horrendous.  I saw a player in a decent sized sluggish ship outplay a guy in a wassa despite being outmanouvered. The wassa however had a million bottles of rum and repairs and kept repairing and zombie rumming his crew. As a new player it looked unfair, wasn't " fun" and rewarded the less skilled player. The final nail in the coffin for me was when he boarded with less sailers. But then used rum again and magically got a few hundred more sailors again and then won the boarding...

I honestly don't see how anyone could see the rum as fun, promoting skill or fair. It rewards the guy who can stall the battle (faster ship) And who carries the most rum.

Last time I tested, using rum in melee (boarding) does not replenish morale.  So if you are good you can still win and force them to surrender just by beating their morale to zero.