Hotfix for patch 13. Le Gros Ventre Refit + Swivels!!!

[Hodo]

6 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Guns can be a huge equalizer when some little pissant grabs the wind tho

LOL ask the French how that worked out for them.  Their tactics was to fight on the downwind side so they could elevate their guns to hit rigging and sails.

[Malachy]

That's the french  they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag if you showed them the exit sign.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Malachy

[DeRuyter]

7 hours ago, Teutonic said:

After some tests, it's going to be some time before I get the hang of the new "wind and sails" in battle.

I do like it, but I think the reality of the OW speeds is not good. I know a number of people, including myself, complain about the time it takes to sail places, even more so when you're sailing against the wind. I really do wish OW travel would not be so negatively affected they way it is on the aggie right now.

Have you tried sailing on the OW like you would in battle? In other words sailing on different tacks to reach an upwind destination? It may work out to be faster than just setting a straight course and waiting for the wind to clock around. 

 

[Hodo]

12 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Have you tried sailing on the OW like you would in battle? In other words sailing on different tacks to reach an upwind destination? It may work out to be faster than just setting a straight course and waiting for the wind to clock around. 

 

Easy with your sailing logic there sir.  

I do that already myself now.  But that is because I hate sailing forever. 

[Jarlath Morrow]

7 hours ago, Teutonic said:

After some tests, it's going to be some time before I get the hang of the new "wind and sails" in battle.

I do like it, but I think the reality of the OW speeds is not good. I know a number of people, including myself, complain about the time it takes to sail places, even more so when you're sailing against the wind. I really do wish OW travel would not be so negatively affected they way it is on the aggie right now.

I am inclined to agree about the open world slowness. I am very excited for the new sailing physics on the Agamemnon and I'm working on mastering her. But that excitement is hard to sustain if I undock the Agamemnon in, for example, a tight harbour with bad wind.

It will surely be a boon to harbours that are very open or have multiple access routes.

[Malachy]

12 minutes ago, Jarlath Morrow said:

I am inclined to agree about the open world slowness. I am very excited for the new sailing physics on the Agamemnon and I'm working on mastering her. But that excitement is hard to sustain if I undock the Agamemnon in, for example, a tight harbour with bad wind.

It will surely be a boon to harbours that are very open or have multiple access routes.

Whatever you do, don't run aground in battle. You will never get clear. I was semi afk and did that, only way to get out of it was to exit the battle. I think it's gonna need a couple tweaks before we are all said and done. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Malachy

[The Wren]

I'm just getting up to speed with this new sail profile news and it does sound interesting. Has anyone tried to steal the wind from an opponent yet?

If you're upwind from and alongside another ship and basically block the wind from hitting his sails with yours does he lose the wind?

[maturin]

It's just a script stating that ships in a certain position slow down. Like a hitscan gun in a shooter, not a fully-simulated projectile.

[maturin]

I've found a serious flaw with the new Agamemnon sailing model. The devs have succeeded in making her feel more like a sailing ship, but there are at least two drawbacks that make this more of a step backwards than a step forward.

Short version:

• The rotation effect of yards is excessive, especially when sails are backed.
• Excessive rotation effect of main/mizzen sails makes it possible to tack with zero speed and zero use of rudder.
• Excessive rotation effect of sails in general now make it impossible to 'heave to' in a historical manner. (That is, with one mast back and one mast full.)

Silver lining: It is very exciting and historical that the yards are more powerful than the rudder. The yards' rotation effects overpower the rudder in-game now. But this leads to serious side effects.

 

Exhibit 1:

Trying to sail backwards on a beam reach, just like the video in the OP (from the USS Constitution museum).

With yards fully aback, the ship starts rotating to windward uncontrollably. I know the rudder is over the wrong way in this screenshot, but the yards' rotation effects overpower the rudder even when you do it right.

So in practice, you will end up with your bow pointed at the wind.

IRL, when the ship starts sailing backwards, water will pile up underneath the stern, and force the stern into the wind. So even if the sails want to make the ship's bow turn to windward, they would be counteracted by the blunt stern plowing through the water.

The same problem now makes it impossible to 'heave to'. You get caught in a Catch-22. Imagine a ship heaving to by backing the fore yards. Because full sails on the main and mizzen are more powerful than the backed sail, the after yards cannot be trimmed to keep the sails full. Otherwise, you will continue sailing at 2-3 knots. Those yards need to be shivered, or pointed at the wind. But now the backed fore yards overpower you rudder, and the ship rotates downwind.

Conversely, if you back the main and mizzen yards, the powerful rotation effect spins the ship into the wind, no matter what you do. Because 2 masts > 1 mast. This isn't a problem IRL because the jibs can be used to control rotation. But in the game we only have the rudder, and the rudder is helpless.

Therefore, a major part of historical sailing is now impossible. It's a big loss to the game's realism.

[maturin]

Exhibit 2:

It is now possible to tack with ZERO knots of speed, and without ever touching the rudder. This is because the rotation effects of backed yards are so powerful now.

STEP ONE:

Ship is stopped, with the wind abeam. Back the after yards.

 

STEP TWO:

Set full sail, with Depower. Point the fore yards at the wind.

As you can see, before you even get to 75% sails, the ship has already rotated into the wind.

You never make any headway. The turn rate is similar to a proper tack with 9 knots of momentum. No need to sail anywhere when the ship can spin like a top. Should be a great defense against stern campers.

 

STEP THREE:

The ship is head-to-wind with 2 knots of sternway. There is no need to ever touch the yards. Rotation continues.

 

STEP FOUR:

The ship has paid off normally, and is ready to start sailing. Because up to now it hasn't gone faster than half a knot.

In conclusion, the yards are so powerful that's there's probably no point ever touching the rudder. Yards are king. You don't need speed to maneuver.

 

How can this be fixed?

By nerfing the rotation effect of backed main/mizzen yards.

When these yards are backed, the game should treat them as sails providing negative thrust. But they should only provide minimal input on the rotation of the ship. This is something of a 'hack' to the sailing model, but it reflects realism as well. It was considered poor seamanship to back the main course, and captains did not try to spin their ships around by backing yards on the after masts. They would shiver these yards to neutralize their rotation effects, and that is all. Even when boxhauling, the after yards were supposed to provide sternway, but not rotation.

What say you, devs? Does the above solution require additional scripting, or can the curves just be adjusted. It would need some testing either way. But if accomplished, it would make tacking a lot more realistic than it was before.

It may also fix the problem in Exhibit 1, although only for one of the two methods of heaving to.

[jodgi]

 Ooooh, this is exciting!

I have many thoughts but mostly questions. I have prepared some vids for side-by-side comparison of turning and tacking, I'll get to that shortly.

First I admit I have a weak understanding of what a "historical tack" and "heaving to" actually translated to in regards to how the crews manipulated the different parts of the rigging.

I assume, but I'm not certain, that all sails, masts and yards are fully effective all time in game. We have no individual sheets of sail that are in the "wind shadow" of other sheets or objects (?). Example:

If this was a low to no speed tack in reality the foremast courses would act mainly a drag along the same vector as the wind direction. Since the sheets are backed the airfoil behaviour would be very poor, but it would probably still retain some sideways force component helping the port rotation since the mast is ahead of the "center of force". (Arrgh, sheets really means some form of rope. I mean any piece of cloth hung on a ship to act a a sail.) 

Now, the main and mizzen sheets would find themselves in a mostly turbulent airflow and the result would be (somewhat reduced) drag along the same vector as the wind direction, mostly.

My guess is that in the game all masts and corresponding yards with sails enjoy the full effect of the wind disregarding any object that is placed between them and the origin of the wind (meaning there is no turbulent airflow in the game). 

This is a biggie as far as reproducing historical handling of ships in game. There is some approximation of turbulent airflow already in the game as is apparent when all square riggers go faster at broad reach than when running. I assume this is sail force multiplied with the heading of the ship hull so it is "scripted" or "hard-coded" and not fully modelled.

Next biggie is total lack of leeway for accessibility (good) reasons. We never deal with the real force vectors but only the (abstract) components of thrust and drag along the heading of the ship hull and the rotational force components defined from the center of mass or force. I'm a little weak on the proper terms of physics in english, you'll have to forgive me.

I'm all for historical handling of our ships, but at the end of the day we need to end up with ships that are able to tack into the wind.

[Edward J Kenway]

I personally feel they should give the rudder more of an impact its true the sail easily overpower the rudder but when you need that extra bit of turn power for a tack its not there 

[Slim McSauce]

7 minutes ago, Edward J Kenway said:

I personally feel they should give the rudder more of an impact its true the sail easily overpower the rudder but when you need that extra bit of turn power for a tack its not there 

it is with the new sailing the agga. Turn rate is greatly increased down wind with the sails supporting the turn.

Tacking with the agga I've found that you should actually depower your sails coming 2-3 points into the wind, let your main sails flip you around and once 1-2 points on the other side repower. The jibs actually add resistance against your turn into the wind.

[maturin]

Quote

I assume, but I'm not certain, that all sails, masts and yards are fully effective all time in game. We have no individual sheets of sail that are in the "wind shadow" of other sheets or objects (?). Example:

Right. The sails don't blanket each other in the game.

 

Quote

If this was a low to no speed tack in reality the foremast courses would act mainly a drag along the same vector as the wind direction. Since the sheets are backed the airfoil behaviour would be very poor, but it would probably still retain some sideways force component helping the port rotation since the mast is ahead of the "center of force". (Arrgh, sheets really means some form of rope. I mean any piece of cloth hung on a ship to act a a sail.) 

Exactly. IRL, few ships will have any speed at all in the stage of the tack that is depicted by your screenshot. And in fact the backed foremast sails are very effective in pushing the bow downwind, thereby completing the tack. That is true IRL and in-game both.

 

Quote

Now, the main and mizzen sheets would find themselves in a mostly turbulent airflow and the result would be (somewhat reduced) drag along the same vector as the wind direction, mostly.

Turbulent airflow (or wind shadow, or blanketing), yes. But more importantly the yards are pointed at the wind, so the main and mizzen sails are mostly ineffective at this stage. Earlier in the tack, when the bow is pointed at the wind, the foresails blanket the mainsail. This makes it possible to rotate the yards with ease. In-game, we can rotate the yards easily no matter what. That's one big difference between gameplay and reality. IRL a backed maintopsail yard can be very difficult to brace around, and the mainsail is even worse.

To be clear, your screenshot depicts a stage of the tacking process that is modeled 100% accurately. The problems come before the bow gets into the wind.

Quote

I'm all for historical handling of our ships, but at the end of the day we need to end up with ships that are able to tack into the wind.

With the new yard forces, Aggie can't ever fail to tack. You don't need any speed or planning and you can do it with a busted rudder.

 

Quote

This is a biggie as far as reproducing historical handling of ships in game. There is some approximation of turbulent airflow already in the game as is apparent when all square riggers go faster at broad reach than when running. I assume this is sail force multiplied with the heading of the ship hull so it is "scripted" or "hard-coded" and not fully modelled.

It may be a lot simpler than that. When running before the wind, the staysails stop working. This slows you down. On a broad reach, the staysails help you.

Aggie sailing 180, with Depower: 10.2 kts

Aggie sailing 135, with Depower: 8.6 kts

What does that tell you? The square sails area actually at maximum effectiveness at 180 degrees. Unrealistic? Yes. But combined with the unrealistic staysails, we get something like reality.

The two real-life mechanics that are unsimulated are 1) sail blanketing and 2) apparent wind.

By the way, nothing is 'scripted' or 'hard coded,' there's just a range of values on a curve, which is simple enough to tinker with.

 

Quote

Tacking with the agga I've found that you should actually depower your sails coming 2-3 points into the wind, let your main sails flip you around and once 1-2 points on the other side repower. The jibs actually add resistance against your turn into the wind.

Have you tested this with a stopwatch, by any chance? Or maybe the ship just tacks faster when you get more negative speed, so the rudder can help.

[maturin]

Here's an interesting nuance of the new Aggie sailing model.

Aggie is now ardent when using manual sails. That is to say, she carries weather helm. Take a look at what I mean:

We start with Aggie sailing on a broad reach. Now tap the 'E' key lightly. The yards don't turn but Manual Skipper is engaged.

Now go make yourself a cup of tea.

In a few minutes you come back to see this:

The ship has luffed up into the wind, under the influence of the main and mizzen sails. But at 270 degrees she reached equilibrium, and the ship is now sailing itself. Note that the yards were parallel to each other throughout the process. The rotation can be countered by the rudder.

So this is kind of neat. Very much like a real ship. If you've read Treasure Island, there's a cool scene where Jim is trying to swim on board a schooner that is sailing itself in this manner, because the two pirates on board are busy fighting each other.

However, this weather helm does aggravate the two problems I outlined about (see screenshots).

By the way, if you repeat this trick from a course of 90 (beam reach), the ship will do the same thing. Only then it will turn upwind until it reaches 45 or so.

[jodgi]

It's quite the diff.

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

it is with the new sailing the agga. Turn rate is greatly increased down wind with the sails supporting the turn.

Tacking with the agga I've found that you should actually depower your sails coming 2-3 points into the wind, let your main sails flip you around and once 1-2 points on the other side repower. The jibs actually add resistance against your turn into the wind.

It was like this before the patch with most ships you depower the last tow notch and let it push you in and than power up to push you out of the turn.  Ok now that I'm off my mini vacation from the game I need to go play with the Aggy some and see what's up with it.

[jodgi]

The depower comes way too early, but are you guys sure a perfectly timed depower increases rotation without taking away rudder effectiveness later due to loss of speed?

 

[William Death]

4 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Tacking with the agga I've found that you should actually depower your sails coming 2-3 points into the wind, let your main sails flip you around and once 1-2 points on the other side repower. The jibs actually add resistance against your turn into the wind.

Actually that works with all the square-rigged ships. You are just noticing it more with the Agamemnon. I once dueled a very skilled player who had a turning-build Victory (Mahogany/Rigging Quality/Agile Hull Refit/Optimized Rudder/Turning Trim/Lightweight Ropes and Blocks/Rum Rations) with my duelling/PB Victory (Live Oak/Build Strength/Strong Hull/Extra Planking/Optimized Rudder/Turning Trim/Lightweight Ropes and Blocks/Rum Rations). Even though he had a higher turn rate, faster sail handling, and better acceleration than I did (because he was Mahogany/Rigging Quality with Agile Hull Bonus); I was still able to out-turn him, avoid his stern rakes and sink him. The reason I was able to do that is because I practiced perfect manual sailing skills: I feathered the sails all the time that I was turning and I depowered perfectly every time I tacked. I would also like the record to show that I did not remove any of his masts: I actually can win duels without demasting .

In game, it seems that from 10* on one side of the wind to 10* on the  other side of the wind, all of your sails are going to create drag or turning resistance: ideally, you'd furl all of them, however, it takes far too long to furl and then re-set the square sails; your staysails and jibs, on the other hand, can be depowered instantly with "T." 

I have noticed that, on the Agamemnon, even though your staysails still provide a tiny bit of lift and therefore forward thrust while closing in on 20* from the wind, they also seem to provide some heavy lateral resistance to turning into the wind--depowering early on that ship is required to get the best turn rate. Furthermore, coming out of the wind, you seem to get a benefit by re-powering your sails early so that you have them generating forward thrust to keep you from bleeding too much speed and also lateral thrust to help push you downwind far enough for your square sails to start drawing as well. So, with Agamemnon, my short tests suggest that depowering from about 25* coming into the tack to 10* coming out of the tack gives the best results. I was easily able to stay above 3.5 knots throughout the entire tack, starting with about 8 knots of initial speed on a broad reach. Build is Teak/Teak with planking and British Rig Refit.

You'll also notice some benefit to depowering when you turn downwind. I won't elaborate too much on that, since every ship I've tried prefers different points to be depowered and then repowered. On a similar note: there is a reason I didn't complain too much about the Endymion's old "horrible turn rate/'handles like a brick'." 99% of people who sail that ship and then complain that it handles poorly have no idea what they are doing (at least on that ship) right or wrong with the sails and are therefore incapable of making it tack or wear-ship well. Same thing with the St. Pavel and a handful of other ships that people don't use enough to learn the individual qualities. Every ship has some unique quality to the manual sailing of it, and every ship likes a certain speed or sail-setting to squeeze the best turning speed or turn radius out of it. The people who stick with one ship long enough to learn those qualities are the ones you have to really be cautious when fighting: remember that a good Victory sailor can stern-camp a poorly handled Bellona or 4th rate.

[jodgi]

For the ultimate turn RADIUS just follow @maturin's instructions on turning on the spot earlier in this topic.

For turn rate depower doesn't seem to do much; early or late. Placebo or am I just doing it wrong?

 

[jodgi]

Just now, Peter Goldman said:

I would say it depends on the ship. For example, 1st rates speed lose is very low, so I figured depowering for that ship might help. Same for the ships that for some reason struggle at last 15-30 degrees like snow, essex, santa cecilia

True. I should've clarified I'm only concerned with the new aga with this.

[Sir Texas Sir]

On man the turn rate on the Aggy now blows big time.  Ok you buff all the turn rates of all the 4th rates before than you nurfed the Aggy to even worse turn rate than it's every had?   I was just doing a quick test of a Teak Teak one with Opt Rudder and it seem to turn like hell even using manual sailing to assist and this is some one that has a little hint at the game.  Hate to see some noob try to work this thing with the state the other hips are it felt like was in a 1st rate how slugish it turned.  I'll play with it some later, but that was the first thing I noted was how bad it turns now, never had good turning in the frst place compared to the other 4th rates, but if this is going to be the new Aggy you need to give it back some of it's old armor/hps stats it had before it got nerfed when it first came out.  I love the aggy and been trying to keep with it even with the Wasa introduced using the excuse I have all 5 slots open, but now I feel like what the point of using any of the 4th rates other than the Wasa?   Don't got speed, don't have turn rate, your way under guned, you have less crew, less HP.  

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, jodgi said:

For the ultimate turn RADIUS just follow @maturin's instructions on turning on the spot earlier in this topic.

For turn rate depower doesn't seem to do much; early or late. Placebo or am I just doing it wrong?

 

going into the turn it didn't make much difference, but coming out having your sails depowered for those first 2 points seem to give it more rotation at sacrifice of speed that you don't get back until 4-5 points out, but you get there much faster.

But idk I only tested a few times so I cant say for sure.

[Jesters-Ink]

Are we going to get realistic self demasting if we square full canvas into the wind?

[maturin]

3 hours ago, Jesters-Ink said:

Are we going to get realistic self demasting if we square full canvas into the wind?

That wouldn't happen except when suddenly caught aback at considerable speed in rough weather. Every time you tack the main yards are momentarily squared and flat aback.

On the other hand, a sort of rigging shock for doing this might be in order. It would prevent abusive tacking tactics of flipping the main yards 30 degrees too early.