Is this okay?

[Slim McSauce]

Is this the intention of speed bonuses? Every ship hitting speed cap?

Edited October 12, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[William Death]

Speed cap needs to be removed. If we are going to limit speed, limit it by percentage, not by a hard cap. 20% sounds about right. That puts Endymion at 16.54 knots when she is empty. Of course, you've got to take into account the sail force bonuses and such, but I think that those have enough negatives already. 

Limiting speed that way will give more purpose to those ships with high base speeds, while removing the "I gotta hit 15kn" attitude that many have adopted recently.

Also, keep in mind that some 3rd and 4th rates were known for their superior handling and sailing qualities: many of them equalled or surpassed all but the best frigates in nearly every respect. It was perfectly reasonable to expect a 74 to keep pace with frigates in a decent wind.

[Teutonic]

To be fair, if you so much as sniff in the direction of that wasa it'll crumble.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Teutonic

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Speed cap needs to be removed. If we are going to limit speed, limit it by percentage, not by a hard cap. 20% sounds about right. That puts Endymion at 16.54 knots when she is empty. Of course, you've got to take into account the sail force bonuses and such, but I think that those have enough negatives already. 

Limiting speed that way will give more purpose to those ships with high base speeds, while removing the "I gotta hit 15kn" attitude that many have adopted recently.

Also, keep in mind that some 3rd and 4th rates were known for their superior handling and sailing qualities: many of them equalled or surpassed all but the best frigates in nearly every respect. It was perfectly reasonable to expect a 74 to keep pace with frigates in a decent wind.

This. Ships like the Reno and Endy are gimped because unlike all other ships, they can't reach their potential max speed

These ships are by no means easy to sail. One has an awful sailing profile and turns like a brick, the other is a sub 30 gun corvette with no front chasers.

and a fir/fir wasa still has comparable armor to say a teak/teak surprise, while having 5x the broadside weight and is really only caught 1v1 by another wasa. 

Just goes to show how far we are from a balanced meta

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

This. Ships like the Reno and Endy are gimped because unlike all other ships, they can't reach their potential max speed

These ships are by no means easy to sail. One has an awful sailing profile and turns like a brick, the other is a sub 30 gun corvette with no front chasers.

and a fir/fir wasa still has comparable armor to say a teak/teak surprise, while having 5x the broadside weight and is really only caught 1v1 by another wasa. 

Just goes to show how far we are from a balanced meta

 

You know something got to be wrong when I have to agree with you once more in maybe even the same month. I'm with Willis remove the 15 cap and make it a percentage.  Start maybe at 10-15% or even 20% and see what you get.  That lets the speed ships be actual speed ships and the ships that shouldn't be flying will be limited by there base speed not some cap.

What is the current speed cap max?  I think devs said something like 22% currently, but if you take the cap off and lower that 22% than you can better balance it.

 

[Guest]

Detest the speed cap, it was far more interesting when we had speedier ships being dedicated taggers/sail cutters whereas they were often outmatched when it came to doing much else, whereas now you can attain 15 knots on a dozen ships (if not more) making for the endless 15-vs-15 knot chases.

Did they ever state the reason for even introducing the speed cap? Just seems like a lazy hardcap for the sake of not having to bother with balancing upgrades and trims that much.

[admin]

majority of games have soft and hard caps. Even the best ones. 

the goal of speed cap was two fold
1) give more ships a chance
2) make upgrades exciting (instead of boring 0.5 0.2% on each) 

[Morgane Drake]

26 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Hardcap of speed is stupid. I see Wasas going 15 knots chasing Endymions and outrunning them too. How's that good?

On the other side, we have too many speed mods. We need to revert to what we had before:

• Copper Plating
• Studding Sails (remove the negative to sailing upwind, they can be quickly hidden...)
• Extra Staysails (as above)
• Speed Trim (very harsh to turn rate and sails HP, not worth using on hunting ships)

 

Rest of the speed is up to sailing profiles, woods and base speed.

i agree with you

 

or/and add at ALL speed upgrades a malus in sail and/or hull  , in aLL speed upgrade copper plating etc , in  exemple if a ships its fullfited speed in reality, at full speed thats can cause damage in the mast , sails and hull etc

if a wasa its full fited speed with upgrade he can have leaks mast damages and other casualty , in versus a endy has one speed upgrade its more solid etc....

[Sven Silberbart]

Hard Speed Cap must be removed.

What is wrong with: "As faster i am as weaker is my ship". Today some ship types are dead (first of all renomme) because their role as speed-ship has been replaced by ships with similar speed but much more firepower and armor (first of all Wasa).

I dont like any Speed Cap and i dont understand the explanation..

51 minutes ago, admin said:

1) give more ships a chance

That removes the chance of a small speedy tack ship to play its role because it gives the bigger and heavier ships the chance to play the role of the smaller and faster ones.

[Lord Gud]

I do love having three speed refits but if all but one were removed that would give people a chance to use other refits as having three speed refits is better than having anything else in OW.

[Anne Wildcat]

I loved the renomee, great tag ship especially if you have the control perk.  But with the hard cap it's not getting any love. 

Personally, I'm for getting rid of all mods, let ship choice, wood choice, and skill determine your battle, but that's me. 

 

[z4ys]

10 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

...

Personally, I'm for getting rid of all mods, let ship choice, wood choice, and skill determine your battle, but that's me.

...

Agree. Or if its to harsh for the mod loving ones out there, ban the use of more than mod of the same kind.

[Hodo]

5 hours ago, admin said:

majority of games have soft and hard caps. Even the best ones. 

the goal of speed cap was two fold
1) give more ships a chance
2) make upgrades exciting (instead of boring 0.5 0.2% on each) 

I made a suggestion MONTHS ago about the speed caps.   And it was ignored.  Now others come up with basically the same suggestion, and it is again, ignored. 

Having a hard speed cap is stupid.  While no ships actually reached 18kn during this time period, it isnt impossible to think that is could have happened.   So put a % cap on each class of ship like suggested above.  

This will give smaller ships a use aside from being fodder.

[Fargo]

5 hours ago, admin said:

majority of games have soft and hard caps. Even the best ones. 

the goal of speed cap was two fold
1) give more ships a chance
2) make upgrades exciting (instead of boring 0.5 0.2% on each) 

Not in this form for sure, because we can just figure out that its not working. The stacking of boni is probably limited, not total numbers.

1) A speedcap either is so high that it has no meaning at all, or it messes up ship balancing. Just giving ships the same speed wont result in diversity. You then pick the one with best other stats or best handling. The only way to achieve OW diversity is balancing. That some ships are better for special purposes is not a problem at all. I dont know how bad it currently is, but we saw the results. When 15kn means youre 99% safe, nobody can catch anybody. How is PvP supposed to work like this?! 

2) Why dont you lower base speed of all ships, so the fastest ship with max speed boni goes about 15 kn?! Also you cannot care about 15 kn because its realistic, and at the same time accept 7th-4th rates having exactly the same speed. 

The goal is clear and reasonable, but please justify how you think this is supposed work. 

[Sunleader]

56 minutes ago, Fargo said:

The goal is clear and reasonable, but please justify how you think this is supposed work. 

He just did. And I have a feeling nothing anyone says will actually have any effect on you anyways. Cause apparently to you any Answer that is not the Answer you want does not count as an Answer anyways. Needless to say he doesnt owe you any Justifications.... But oh well I.ll at least try in Good Faith again I guess.

First things first.

The Soft Cap usually lowers the bonus you get the higher your value in that area becomes. Thus effectively limiting the Bonus itself. But not the End Value. So assuming your ready to Sacrifice 98% of the Bonus of that last thing you put on. You might still get a tiny bit faster.

The Hard Cap is simpler. As it says ok this is the Max Value and beyond that Upgrades wont make any Difference.

 

Now the Admin is Correct there. Most Games do in Fact have Both of these Limitations.

Albeit in many Games you will not notice the Hard Cap unless really making an effort to reach it. Because the Soft Cap will be enough to prevent anything normally happening from ever going that high.

 

Secondly.

Speed Caps in a Game like this are very Importand. Because Speed is an High Grade Advantage that allows you to Choose the Battle. Meaning that if there was no Speed Cap. There would be one Set of Upgrades and Ships that everyone would Use. Because not using that Ship means that you can never Follow or Run away from an Enemy that has them.

 

 

Now to your actual Question.

How this is actually working and why is it Importand.

1.

The Way its Working is Fairly Simple.

By adding an Hardcap on Speed and making further Speed Upgrades useless. Ships become more Diverse. Because Speed Build Ships can be Fitted with other Upgrades instead of Speed. Where Stronger Ships need to use Speed Upgrades to reach a Speed where they can Follow. This means that if a Ship is very Fast by Default. It can use more of Its Upgrades for other things. Like Reload or Boarding Bonusses. Whereas a Stronger Ship will need to use more Speed Upgrades if it wants to have a Chance to Board someone for example.

In this case the Dev also Highlighted. That thanks to this. They can make it so. That a Single Upgrade really gives a Huge Bonus to an Value. If they had no Hardcap they would need to Dramatically Reduce the Bonusses from Single Upgrades to prevent you from reaching Crazy Values.

This way. Ships get more Diverse as they cant just Stack the same Bonus over and over. Especially not on a Ship that has an high Value in this Area to begin with.

2.

Why is this so Importand.

For this we really just need to Check what would happen if we Removed the Speedcap.

Lets assume there was no Speedcap. Now we end up with two Choices.

A. Trade Ship X now becomes the Fastest Ship in the Game assuming it uses all Speed Upgrades. So this Trade Ship now is pretty much 100% Safe from anything. Because be it on OW or in Battle. You will not Catch it and keep it in Range long enough to Damage its Sails. Hence Piracy becomes Impossible.

B. Frigate X now becomes the Fastest Ship in the Game assuming it uses all Speed Upgrades. So now we got the Reversed Situation. As this Ship now is Faster than any other Ship. Catching this Ship with an Ship thats better Armed becomes Impossible. So it will only Fight if it knows it Wins. Moreover any Trader Spotted by this can basicly Press Surrender and go Back to Port because he has no Chance to possibly Escape.

Its pretty easy to Notice where this would Lead in the Long Term.

3.

How is this Balanced.

In General the Answer is by making sure that Stronger Ships have Slower Acceleration/Deacceleration and are less Maneuverable. So a Big Ship might indeed have the Same Speed. But not only does it need way longer to Reach that Speed. But its also possibly to use that Speed against it. Because he cant just stop his Ship easily. Moreover his Turning Circle becomes ever larger with that high Speed due to his bad Maneuverability. Making it easy to Outmaneuver him when he reaches an higher Speed.

 

 

 

Well. As I said. I do have a Feeling that you wont care for the Explanation at all. Cause its not what you wanted to hear and thus will claim that it isnt an Answer anyways.

But at least for those who really do care this should give People an Idea for the Possible Reasons of the Devs to Implement an Speed Cap.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Sunleader

[jodgi]

Minimal speed mods is best speed mods.

[Pada]

Sorry I forgot, what are fast frigates good for again?

[William Death]

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

For this we really just need to Check what would happen if we Removed the Speedcap.

Lets assume there was no Speedcap. Now we end up with two Choices.

A. Trade Ship X now becomes the Fastest Ship in the Game assuming it uses all Speed Upgrades. So this Trade Ship now is pretty much 100% Safe from anything. Because be it on OW or in Battle. You will not Catch it and keep it in Range long enough to Damage its Sails. Hence Piracy becomes Impossible.

B. Frigate X now becomes the Fastest Ship in the Game assuming it uses all Speed Upgrades. So now we got the Reversed Situation. As this Ship now is Faster than any other Ship. Catching this Ship with an Ship thats better Armed becomes Impossible. So it will only Fight if it knows it Wins. Moreover any Trader Spotted by this can basicly Press Surrender and go Back to Port because he has no Chance to possibly Escape.

Its pretty easy to Notice where this would Lead in the Long Term.

Did you play before the speedcap and new speed mods? Things worked fine then. Endy, Reno, and Tlynx were the fastest ships, 3rd and 4th rates were lucky to get to 15kn. A decent frigate that was designed for general use (not speedbuilt but also not a tank) was about 12.5-13kn. 

I sailed a 14.2kn Bellona for OW hunting. Speedbuilt 5th and 4th rates outran me. I had a 17kn Reno: speedbuilt LGVs and Surprises outran me. The reason for this is sailing profiles, something that many forget to take into account. You don't need to be fast to get away from a battle you dont want to fight, you just need a decent angle to run at that your enemy is bad at.

Speedcap is no good.

[Fargo]

@Sunleader

You cannot blame me for not reading further than the first personal accusation this time. Sorry that you ridiculed yourself in that other topic, but thats not my fault?!

I hope just everyone notices how you pick together your argumentations to fit your purpose best, what is probably the case here too. But everyone is free to evaluate this himself.

Sorry for OT.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Did you play before the speedcap and new speed mods? Things worked fine then. Endy, Reno, and Tlynx were the fastest ships, 3rd and 4th rates were lucky to get to 15kn. A decent frigate that was designed for general use (not speedbuilt but also not a tank) was about 12.5-13kn. 

I sailed a 14.2kn Bellona for OW hunting. Speedbuilt 5th and 4th rates outran me. I had a 17kn Reno: speedbuilt LGVs and Surprises outran me. The reason for this is sailing profiles, something that many forget to take into account. You don't need to be fast to get away from a battle you dont want to fight, you just need a decent angle to run at that your enemy is bad at.

Speedcap is no good.

Not Sure to be Honest.

Albeit I do Remember that a Year ago. In PvP the Device was. Well yes get 6 Renos. Gank anything that you get Ganked. Outrun anything else.

In Short Invincible in Combat.

Surprise indeed also was among that. Especially because it had Bow and Stern Chasers allowing you to actually make sure that this Speed Advantage Stays with you all the time.

 

Thing is. I would dare saying. Exactly this is why it was removed.

Because you only see the Point of Following. But not the point of Outrunning.

Because the one who is Chased is the one who Decides the Sailing Profile.

And as you already Point out there. Nobody will Catch an Reno or Suprise that make use their Sailing Profile. Which pretty much removed everything else from the OW PvP because they are either Ganked or dont get into Range.

 

1 hour ago, Fargo said:

@Sunleader

You cannot blame me for not reading further than the first personal accusation this time. Sorry that you ridiculed yourself in that other topic, but thats not my fault?!

I hope just everyone notices how you pick together your argumentations to fit your purpose best, what is probably the case here too. But everyone is free to evaluate this himself.

Sorry for OT.

Of course I can Blame you for it

I did before you even Answered in Fact. Because from the Start I knew you would not Listen anyways because its not the Answer you want to Hear

And as we already know. Anything but the Answer you want to Hear. Will be Ignored by you anyways

 

1 hour ago, Pada said:

Sorry I forgot, what are fast frigates good for again?

 

Its main Use is to Chose the Fight. So you only Fight if you are sure you Win. And you just Run away if you are not sure you Win.

Its an Valid and Incredible Strong Tactic in Real Life Wars. But for a Game its unfortunately really really Frustrating and usually ends with everyone just Sailing the same Stuff and the same Upgrades.

Thats also why it was likely Capped.

 

Now Speed Builts are Primarily Used for having the Space for other Upgrades. For example Boarding Bonusses or high Maneuverability Bonusses as you already got the Top Speed anyways.

After all. Sure the Bigger Slower Ship might also Reach Speed Cap. But even so he is barely able to Maneuver he needs forever to Accelerate to that Cap and he also needs forever to Stop again afterwards.

Which allows the Frigate which was Faster to begin with. To Outmaneuver the Bigger Ship very easily and Blow up Salvos into its Weakspots.

[Liq]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Minimal speed mods is best speed mods.

this

Things were working out perfectly well when we only had Copper Plating (and Speed Trim Mod with -10% HP), and no speedcap

[MassimoSud]

You forgot staysails and studding sails best upgrades ever!

[Knobby]

No hard 15kts cap, but introduce stacking penalty / diminishing returns. Suddenly base speed and sailing profile has meaning again.

 Oh and while you're at it, pls let refits that alter sailing profile also have an effect on OW.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Knobby

[Sunleader]

Problem with Softcaps is that they are hard to Balance and gives no advantage over the Hardcaps.

Because either the diminishing return is smashing. Then its effectively the same as a hardcap cause the mini advantage you get is neglectable.

Or its moderate. Then people just ignore it cause your still able to outrun anything easily.

 

Also as I said.

Sailing Profiles are fairly Irrekevant here. Cause when outrunning someone. You decide the profile. So different prifiles dont help the problem.

 

[Werewolf]

Speed cap is the biggest reason I no longer play. It was more fun when you could build a glass ship that could haul ass... it required you to play chess. Only another glass ship could get you, or if you were stupid in your tags and had the wind against you. Now, thanks to the whiners, we have red vs blue with cookie cutter ships that can be midden to the gills but still go the same damn speed as a ship twice it's size.