Foreign clan alliances

[Bart Smith]

Hope that was obvious that you cant attack own nation.

[Busterbloodvessel]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

Big yes! Mercenary clans incoming.

But how would it work when for example:

GB at war with SWE

GB and SWE added clan Y on both lists

Can Y now enter both sides? Is 1 side locked as soon as 1 player of this clan chooses a side?

 

If a clan wants to fight for another Nation then it should join the other Nation. Otherwise, if allowed I fear this will turn into intra-clan fighting and negate the significance of nation membership. If it is to be allowed in some form then I believe that this feature should only extend to the hiring of Pirates clans. I say this as Pirates already have outlaw inter clan fighting and mercenary alliances would not be incompatible with the Pirate tradition. 

Buster (pirate for hire?)

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

I voted no. When it was available where alliances were made in game it created a stagnate system in PvP US. I do think it should be implemented for these sixth coalition factions that you developers are considering introducing however since last I checked you are planning not to give them a safe zone and ports that are unconquerable. 

[Norfolk nChance]

4 hours ago, admin said:

Captains

please comment on the alliances with clans of foreign nations (for port battle entry rights only).

For example - you can add a clan from a foreign nation to your friend list - allowing them to help you in port battles. 

this statement is not approved by the Church and is my belief only...

 

@admin

wrong argument and deflecting my friend. This poll will help when adding loads of other nations...

If you will NOT look at  the Civil War mechanic then STOP. The ONLY foreign nation that should be added to help with PBs is Pirate as a separate Clan mechanic. Pirate is crying out for a unique feature... The Privateer is it....

Diluting large nation by adding more smaller nations won't help in imho.

The Pirate right here in this THREAD as a perfect integrated ROLE within the NA NATIONs....

PLEASE RE-STATE the question...

 

Norfolk nBlack

 

[Hawkwood]

22 minutes ago, rediii said:

Not being able to fight against the own nation would solve all problems mentioned as I see it or not?

GB friends clan B of SWE

GB attacks clan A of SWE

clan B can only enter portbattle of clan A if listed as friend of clan A

Exactly this. Discussion over,and let the testers test.

 

Captains

please comment on the alliances with clans of foreign nations (for port battle entry rights only)

Many do not read what`s been written

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Cortez

[Archaos]

8 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

We are talking about clan wars.

So it wouldnt be GB vs SWE, it will be AHOY vs HRE.

If there is a PB of AHOY vs HRE. The fix to not mess things and destroy the sense of national unity is that HRE get allies from the other nations (Spain, Pirates, VP, DN, France, US. Never another GB clan).

The issue is clan wars cannot work properly with the overlay of nations.

In your example HRE can get allies from clans in other nations apart from GB, but AHOY can also get allies from the same nations, so you can have a situation where clans from the same nations have to fight each other. Which is not a big issue in the port battle itself but it makes what happens outside the port very confusing. Again using your example 1 French clan supports HRE and another supports AHOY, to join the port battle both sail from the same French port, at what stage are they able to attack each other? If they are not able to do this then the whole system outside the port becomes confusing.

[Hawkwood]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

The issue is clan wars cannot work properly with the overlay of nations.

1 step after another mate Nobody talking about clan wars yet.

Clan wars within a nation can not work,indeed,because of nation overlay, you are right.

Earlier you were trying to mess with our minds a bit, although this is only about "port battle entry rights".

[Archaos]

Just now, Cortez said:

1 step after another mate Nobody talking about clan wars yet.

Clan wars within a nation can not work,indeed,because of nation overlay, you are right.

Earlier you were trying to mess with our minds a bit, although this is only about "port battle entry rights".

Why do you only choose one part of my post to quote and not answer how the rest is supposed to work.

The first part of my post was in response to Intrepido's comment "We are talking about clan wars".

Tell me how the rest of my post will be worked out in practice?

[Archaos]

Just now, Intrepido said:

Because they are from the same nation (French) they can only attack each other INSIDE the port when each french clan have the Swedish or British flag. The goal here is to help other nations in port battles.

I can see that once inside the port battle it is not an issue, but on the way there what happens?

In my example both French players from different clans are heading to the port battle, they cannot attack each other but they can be attacked in OW by members of AHOY or HRE. Both are sailing alongside each other and someone from HRE tries to intercept one of them, but as both are French they both get drawn into battle, what does the one supporting HRE do? does ho do green on green or does he just leave the battle? What if the two ships side by side affect the BR so that the intercepting ship now cannot pull the one he wants into battle?

As you can start to see it all starts getting a bit complicated, and that is looking at a simple case, add more nations and clans into the mix and it becomes utter confusion.

[Slim McSauce]

13 minutes ago, Cortez said:

1 step after another mate Nobody talking about clan wars yet.

Clan wars within a nation can not work,indeed,because of nation overlay, you are right.

Earlier you were trying to mess with our minds a bit, although this is only about "port battle entry rights".

It can and PVP Global Pirates are direct proof of that. Clans that weren't working with the nation were purged. No need to ally outside clans to fight proxy wars against rouge clans in the nation. They just dealt with them head on and they ended up being the strongest nation on global for a time.

If the french want to join a battle with the brits to fight the french then that's called treason, its a part of the sandbox. But they will face consequences from other french clans for betraying their nation. As we learned from the pirates its a self balancing system. People want to win, people need to work together to win. Some clans will go rouge and some civil war may break out, but again that's just a part of the sandbox, and it makes for good content.

Limiting nations to permanent friendly status is a disservice to the sandbox, RolePlay, and history. Bonds of a nation should be built on trust and brotherhood. Not an arbitrary "friendly" status forcing everyone to play nice with each other

Edited October 4, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[admin]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Whats to stop the Brits setting up a port battle that is only attended by the friendly Danish clan so they cannot be screened out.

port battle against whom?

 

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

It can and PVP Global Pirates are direct proof of that. Clans that weren't working with the nation were purged. No need to ally outside clans to fight proxy wars against rouge clans in the nation. They just dealt with them head on and they ended up being the strongest nation on global for a time.

If the french want to join a battle with the brits to fight the french then that's called treason, its a part of the sandbox. But they will face consequences from other french clans for betraying their nation. As we learned from the pirates its a self balancing system. People want to win, people need to work together to win. Some clans will go rouge and some civil war may break out, but again that's just a part of the sandbox, and it makes for good content.

Limiting nations to permanent friendly status is a disservice to the sandbox, RolePlay, and history.

The only reason it works is because "green on green" is allowed for the Pirates, it cannot work without this. If "green on green" is allowed for all nations then you may as well do away with nations and just have clan wars.

[Hawkwood]

2 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Why do you only choose one part of my post to quote and not answer how the rest is supposed to work.

The first part of my post was in response to Intrepido's comment "We are talking about clan wars".

Tell me how the rest of my post will be worked out in practice?

Because you are assuming something that maybe(HOPEFULLY) won`t happen at all.

You are assuming that a domestic clan can attack domestic port as an auxilliary in a port battle.

[Hawkwood]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

port battle against whom?

 

We hope for some clarification please. Can a british clan join danish clan which is attacking a british port, if the brits are set as friendly?

I personally hope this won`t happen.

[Archaos]

6 minutes ago, admin said:

port battle against whom?

 

I was using my example of British against Danish port with a friendly Danish clan helping the Brits.

As people pointed out this could be avoided by not allowing clans join attacks on ports of their own nation, but the other issues I believe would still remain with the nations involved in port battle both being able to call on clans from the same nation to help them.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Archaos

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Because you are assuming something that maybe(HOPEFULLY) won`t happen at all.

You are assuming that a domestic clan can attack domestic port as an auxilliary in a port battle.

Sorry hoping something will not happen is poor game design. I have given an example of what could happen within the mechanics as proposed and if people can gain advantage from it you can be sure it will happen.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, Archaos said:

Sorry hoping something will not happen is poor game design. I have given an example of what could happen within the mechanics as proposed and if people can gain advantage from it you can be sure it will happen.

We still do NOT know how is this supposed to work. I hope admin will answer soon.

[Hawkwood]

3 minutes ago, rediii said:

Maybe its not that serious but I see another problem that may occur.

Lets say the dutch hire a fleet of mercenaries to conquer some stuff. Its nice content and all but the problem may be the screening itself. Right now you form a battlegroup so small fleets cant tag you and shoot sails to keep people in battle instead of portbattle. Battlegroups build up a BR shield against small fleets. Now 12 dutch players and 13 players from different nations group up and sail to the portbattle (offensive) the BR shield doesnt work and this fleets gits splitted up by 5 players tagging some mercenaries.

Should it be possible to create battlegroups of different nations?

Port battle ENTRY RIGHTS. Did not read anything about being allied in total.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Cortez said:

We still do NOT know how is this supposed to work. I hope admin will answer soon.

At least on this point I can agree with you. But it is also the reason I am raising various scenarios to show that the idea needs to be properly thought through rather than be implemented and then we find the loopholes and people get upset and leave the game.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Archaos said:

The only reason it works is because "green on green" is allowed for the Pirates, it cannot work without this. If "green on green" is allowed for all nations then you may as well do away with nations and just have clan wars.

Yes. just have clan wars, no need to make green on green a thing, no need to get rid of nations. Just let one clan declare a war on another in a nation, give it a 1 day buffer so people can prepare. and let those clans deal with it. 

Make in nation clan wars last 7 days. That is plenty of time for things to be settled without extreme devastation.

Battles aren't an issue as long as it shows the clans as well like we see with PBs. People can join the side of their clan/allies. If they accidently pick the wrong side that's too bad. Green on green is still against the rules. As long as when I roll up to the battle clans are clearly listed on both sides, aswell as nation then I'll join the right side every time. Battlegroups can make this pretty much foolproof 

[Hawkwood]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

At least on this point I can agree with you. But it is also the reason I am raising various scenarios to show that the idea needs to be properly thought through rather than be implemented and then we find the loopholes and people get upset and leave the game.

Agree.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, rediii said:

Its pretty much a alliance if a clan of a foreign nation supports you in conquest by fighting on your side in a portbattle. I only expand my thinking around that and how it will function in the real environment where players use every bit of mechanic to exploit it and gain a advantage.

Same with tagging the allied ships just to not get tagged by the defending screeningforce and after escapjng battle warping to the port and instantly joining the pb

Agree.

[Archaos]

Just now, Intrepido said:

If that happens.

Lets say that EDR is allied with HRE, and the enemy french clan is CBC. Because all the french sail together and HRE tags the french fleet it will drag into battle all the french fllet except EDR. EDR can join that battle after as support, wearing that way the swedish flag.

So how does the game determine that EDR is not to be pulled into battle? What if there is a third party involved for example the Pirates who just want to cause confusion to both sides? This would start needing complex RoE and the more complex it is the more chance of loopholes and exploits.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, rediii said:

Its pretty much a alliance if a clan of a foreign nation supports you in conquest by fighting on your side in a portbattle. I only expand my thinking around that and how it will function in the real environment where players use every bit of mechanic to exploit it and gain a advantage.

Same with tagging the allied ships just to not get tagged by the defending screeningforce and after escapjng battle warping to the port and instantly joining the pb

With all due respect I think we're crossing into dev territory. They know best how to iron out loopholes and make it as un-abusable as possible. Its not an impossible feat, thats what we pay them for after all   

[Archaos]

4 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Yes. just have clan wars, no need to make green on green a thing, no need to get rid of nations. Just let one clan declare a war on another in a nation, give it a 1 day buffer so people can prepare. and let those clans deal with it. 

Make in nation clan wars last 7 days. That is plenty of time for things to be settled without extreme devastation.

Battles aren't an issue as long as it shows the clans as well like we see with PBs. People can join the side of their clan/allies. If they accidently pick the wrong side that's too bad. Green on green is still against the rules. As long as when I roll up to the battle clans are clearly listed on both sides, aswell as nation then I'll join the right side every time. Battlegroups can make this pretty much foolproof 

Again this starts requiring more complex RoE so you know who is friend or foe. Just simply do away with nations and allow full clan war. People can fly whatever flag they want but others will be either enemy, neutral or friend to them no matter what flag they fly.