Patch 11.0: New ships, Unity 5, Improved clan based conquest, and many other changes.

[Hodo]

11 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Maybe not sadly, but I found it ironic that the comment came from someone who used to be a big small ship advocate.

I still am.. but with the current meta being "go big or go home".   It is kind of pointless.

 

[Rigs]

29 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Here's an example from a top player.

Take note that this is a 2v1 and it took around 50 minutes. Now imagine how hard it would be to do on your own without help within the battle timewindow

Thank you for the videos, I have a lot to learn for sure . 

I have noticed 1) that you can just stern camp without even taking down the sails and 2) that it took only 1 broadside from a 5th rate to take down 6% of a SoL sails hp. Multiply that by 10 and render the bigger ship to a log. The rest is GG. The range on grape shots effectiveness to be noted as well. 

Again, going back the key is the bigger ship sails hp. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rigs

[Capn Rocko]

4 hours ago, Landsman said:

Sure hunting traders is a option but why hunt trader ships when you can get gold so much easier with other ways?

Because its fun to ruin someone's day? xD

[Rigs]

8 minutes ago, Hodo said:

As someone else already said, larger ships do have more sail hp.   If I am correct the sail HP is often the same as the side armor HP unmodified.   

So if the ship has 3000 hp on the side, it will have 3000hp for the sails.   

A  smart captain will sit at his best range and obliterate the smaller ship.   I know I have done it.   A while ago, about 6 - 9 months ago, I was sailing in my Essex, when a player attacked me in a Rattlesnake.   I moved out to about 700m and proceeded to pick him apart with my long guns.   His carronades were useless at that distance and I had enough downwind speed to keep the distance.  

 

Second point.  

In my Lynx, I engaged an Indefatigable with the help of a friend in a Renomee.   After 1 hour and 25min we managed to get him down to we could board him.    He was a bad captain and a horrible sailor, he should have by all means destroyed both of us.   I even made a mistake that brought me along side of him at about 200m in my Lynx.   If he had been paying attention or not panicking he would of sunk me or demasted me right then.   

 

The stern chasers on a lot of bigger ships are larger than anything on most 6th rates or smaller, and hell the stern chasers on a SoL has more firepower weight than the whole broadside off of a Privateer.

You are right about that, but not quite, we are talking about efficiency, 50% hull or 50% sails which cripples and hamper you more? You can also distribute the sides damage as well, you have 4 sides + thickness which could result in bouncing or not penetrating and structure hp versus only the sails hp.

 So by comparison your numbers for L'Ocean hull becomes additive all the below. 

Bow Armour Hit Points 2400 Side Armour Hit Points 9600x2 Stern Armour Hit Points 960 Structure Hit Points 4800

Armour Bow Armour Thickness 48cm Side Armour Thickness 80cm Stern Armour Thickness 32cm

 vs.

Sail Hit Points	9600

In conclusion, the sails hit points need some love.

 

[Landsman]

12 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Because its fun to ruin someone's day?

I'm not a toxic player, lol... fighting fair pvp against other warships is what i enjoy most ( but of course i absolutely support trader hunting, especially from pirates ).

[Capn Rocko]

Just now, Landsman said:

I'm not a toxic player, lol... fighting fair pvp against other warships is what i enjoy most ( but of course i absolutely support trader hunting, especially from pirates ).

Well... I am a pirate, but I don't consider myself to be a toxic player. Just a role player  

[Landsman]

3 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Well... I am a pirate, but I don't consider myself to be a toxic player. Just a role player

Yeah yeah, fair enough... just meant saying "fun to ruin peoples day" sounds pretty toxic / trolling / sadistic 

[Hodo]

8 minutes ago, Rigs said:

You are right about that, but not quite, we are talking about efficiency, 50% hull or 50% sails which cripples and hamper you more? You can also distribute the sides damage as well, you have 4 sides + thickness which could result in bouncing or not penetrating and structure hp versus only the sails hp.

 So by comparison your numbers for L'Ocean hull becomes additive all the below. 

Bow Armour Hit Points 2400 Side Armour Hit Points 9600x2 Stern Armour Hit Points 960 Structure Hit Points 4800

Armour Bow Armour Thickness 48cm Side Armour Thickness 80cm Stern Armour Thickness 32cm

 vs.

Sail Hit Points	9600

In conclusion, the sails hit points need some love.

 

What you fail to understand or realize is that each individual sail is modeled as a hitbox with its own HP.  You can shoot the main sail on the L'Ocean all day with Chain, once it is shredded you wont do any more damage to the sails.  Meaning you have to shoot other sails, higher or all of the other sails.   If the L'Ocean captain wanted to mess with you, he could depower or switch to battle or slow sails thus removing sails from the target area.   You have no hope of demasting him with your smaller guns, and you have a bigger chance of overshooting and putting yourself in his broadside.    If you go to slow he can board you and well 1000 men vs 120 is a no brainer.

[Rigs]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think we are closer on combat balance than we ever have been over the last couple years, especially in terms of how far off we were with demasting, stern camping, crew damage etc. in the past.  I mean, with lower rate ships you're talking about much more maneuverability across the board, and ship builds, cannon types, and mods start playing a much more important role, so there are a lot more factors to take account of.  Drawing any conclusions on what "should" happen in those engagements I think is difficult, and you need to go by each context and whether the battle "feels" right or not.  And I think things are pretty well balanced inside engagements when both ships are fighting it out.

Where the balance begins to break down and still needs work is in terms of the speed meta and open world dynamics. You don't need to sail smaller ships to crush smaller ships. Essentially it is now a race for new players to get into speed fit connies, Wasas, or Bellonas, because with those you can pretty much chase and destroy anything of a lower class, other than ships that can escape upwind. Trincs, frigates, pretty much all 5th rates and 4th rates other than the 3.5 rates are pretty much obsolete in OW battles as far as I can tell.

I agree for most part, you obviously have the experience on your side, the thing that I'm trying to wrap my head around is there are quite a few successful OW PvP'ers that are mostly/only using 6th rate ships. The next would be Surprise (Ren. PF) and only after that the ones you suggested above. It will be a while before I can test this first hand myself.

[Rigs]

9 minutes ago, Hodo said:

What you fail to understand or realize is that each individual sail is modeled as a hitbox with its own HP.  You can shoot the main sail on the L'Ocean all day with Chain, once it is shredded you wont do any more damage to the sails.  Meaning you have to shoot other sails, higher or all of the other sails.   If the L'Ocean captain wanted to mess with you, he could depower or switch to battle or slow sails thus removing sails from the target area.   You have no hope of demasting him with your smaller guns, and you have a bigger chance of overshooting and putting yourself in his broadside.    If you go to slow he can board you and well 1000 men vs 120 is a no brainer.

Look it is obvious that at this game you more skilled than me. But, lets talk logic, the purpose of shooting down the sails is to reduce it's mobility so you do your thing reducing the risk to take damage. That's just means to an end, if the L'Ocean captain decides make himself slower or stop completely just to mess with me, I take that any day, just made my job easier. He can pull his pants down for what I care... he can keep his sails, as long he is slow and I can stern or bow camp him. I would recommend the said captain to use brace instead .

Again, this just using logic based on what I see around me and videos, so, I could be completely wrong.

[Rigs]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Maybe we're seeing different portions or populations of players.. but on PvP Global I haven't seen any max rank captain regularly sailing anything other than 5th-2nd rates for OW raiding/PvP.  And the 5th rates are exceedingly few and far between. Sixth rates are just not survivable while you can get those higher rated ships up to speeds that can chase any square rigged 5th/6th rate down.  And that makes me sad because I'd much rather sail my non-heavy Rattler around than dick around in a Wasa or a Wappen.

I'm currently experimenting servers as well, but speaking of Global, I'm sure you are familiar with Latron, Dave the Spanish and some snow players that seem to be quite successful in their endeavors. Personally, I haven't seen many/anybody going after those guys and they sinking quite a few in all kinds.

[Slim McSauce]

7 minutes ago, Rigs said:

I'm currently experimenting servers as well, but speaking of Global, I'm sure you are familiar with Latron, Dave the Spanish and some snow players that seem to be quite successful in their endeavors. Personally, I haven't seen many/anybody going after those guys and they sinking quite a few in all kinds.

Because its almost impossible to catch anyone because we're all pulling 15 knts down wind with studded sails in fir/fir anything

Edited October 6, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Rigs]

6 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Because its almost impossible to catch anyone because we're all pulling 15 knt ships down wind with studded sails in fir/fir anything

Going back full circle. I thought the escape was upwind sailing profile with staysails and elite pirate rig, in 6th rates or Surprise.

Please tell me I have learned something 

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, Rigs said:

Going back full circle. I thought the escape was upwind sailing profile with staysails and elite pirate rig, in 6th rates or Surprise.

Please tell me I have learned something 

Its still impossible to catch a similarly outfited surp since he has 2x the firepower on his back to slow you down 

[Rigs]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

From what I've seen they've spent most of their time sinking traders in those 6th rates. There are very few traders around these days so if they're sailing light it's 5th rates (Reno's) or above from what I've seen/heard. I haven't tangled with either of them recently so I don't personally know what their preferences are, but two (most likely who you'd consider elite) players out of an entire server is a pretty small sample.  

The ships are Rattler, Surprise, Snows and I'm not talking about traders. I don't know if they elite, again I lack the personal experience, but I call it as I see it. Those guys seem to be laughing in everyone's face. For example the snow guys seems to be owning the pirate national waters and nobody seems to be able to put a stop to that. 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Rigs said:

The ships are Rattler, Surprise, Snows and I'm not talking about traders. I don't know if they elite, again I lack the personal experience, but I call it as I see it. Those guys seem to be laughing in everyone's face. For example the snow guys seems to be owning the pirate national waters and nobody seems to be able to put a stop to that. 

Because the snow is the Surprise of 6th rates, being much faster. Its impossible to catch one of these things without having the same ship with the same fits

[Hodo]

41 minutes ago, Rigs said:

Look it is obvious that at this game you more skilled than me. But, lets talk logic, the purpose of shooting down the sails is to reduce it's mobility so you do your thing reducing the risk to take damage. That's just means to an end, if the L'Ocean captain decides make himself slower or stop completely just to mess with me, I take that any day, just made my job easier. He can pull his pants down for what I care... he can keep his sails, as long he is slow and I can stern or bow camp him. I would recommend the said captain to use brace instead .

Again, this just using logic based on what I see around me and videos, so, I could be completely wrong.

There are tricks and tactics to use to get someone off of your stern, sometimes it requires you to go a bit slower.   You can even give the "illusion" of full sails and just turn your sails slightly to let the wind through and dump speed.   I have made an Indefatigable, turn quite fast for a ship of its profile.   Even caught a Surprise off guard with it forcing him to disengage into the wind after I took his foremast off at the top.  

I just let him go because at that point I had won the fight.  

 

 

But again with equal skills the smaller ship has the advantage on handling, but suffers in firepower and damage absorption.   If a larger ship can get a shot on the smaller ship, he will deal a crippling blow.   Now this is between different rates, not between ships of the same rating.  

 

 

[Rigs]

18 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Because the snow is the Surprise of 6th rates, being much faster. Its impossible to catch one of these things without having the same ship with the same fits

So snow would be better than a Surprise, being much faster and with better turn rate? Just take down sails and stay off its broadsides?

Hence that's why these guys would rather use smaller vs. bigger ships. That and they cheaper.

I do think we need some balancing, all the mods/wood trims that relate to speed/turn rate have a bigger impact on smaller ships. Also smaller guns less reload time, less penetration and damage but I don't think that matters when taking down sails. 

Mental note: especially against bigger ships take down sails first. But then again I wish reflexes would match the mind...  

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rigs

[Hodo]

To fix a lot of the issues with the ships is simple.  Remove ships that didnt actually exist.  

The Pirate Frigate and the Heavy Rattlesnake.  

Then fix other ships like the Snow, the real HMS Ontario (Snow) didnt sail on the ocean, and would bob like a quark in the ocean, would have horrible handling characteristics due to the hull lines.   Compare it to the Prince, or even the Trincomalee (which has a very close shape).  The Prince handles like a sports car, it turns it runs, it accelerates.  But the Trincomalee turns like a fully loaded tractor trailer, it accelerates like a pregnant yak, and heels like the leaning tower of Pisa.  

 

[Rigs]

30 minutes ago, Hodo said:

There are tricks and tactics to use to get someone off of your stern, sometimes it requires you to go a bit slower.   You can even give the "illusion" of full sails and just turn your sails slightly to let the wind through and dump speed.   I have made an Indefatigable, turn quite fast for a ship of its profile.   Even caught a Surprise off guard with it forcing him to disengage into the wind after I took his foremast off at the top.  

I just let him go because at that point I had won the fight.  

 

 

But again with equal skills the smaller ship has the advantage on handling, but suffers in firepower and damage absorption.   If a larger ship can get a shot on the smaller ship, he will deal a crippling blow.   Now this is between different rates, not between ships of the same rating.  

I have read about the "candle" but it will probably be a while before I can pull or even remember about that in a battle.

My thinking now, is focused on how to adapt to the situation. What can a new player do against a 1 or 2 more experienced players in snows, rattlers or surprise? I am a new player and don't want to just run. I want to learn. What kind of ship, setup and or maybe a fleet would be the best at this stage?

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rigs

[Hodo]

3 minutes ago, Rigs said:

I have read about the "candle" but it will probably be a while before I can pull or even remember about that in a battle.

My thinking now, is focused on how to adapt to the situation. What can a new player do against a 1 or 2 more experienced players in snows, rattlers or surprise? I am a new player and don't want to just run. I want to learn. What kind of ship, setup and or maybe a fleet would be the best at this stage?

 

The best thing a new player can do against any experienced player is fight at his best, and then after the fight be cool, dont get mad.   PM him/her and ask what you could have done differently or better?  

Most of the time they will try and help you.   As much crap as I give BLACK they will often give you pointers if you just ask.    Same for VCO, CKA, and dozen other clans.  

[Rigs]

17 minutes ago, Hodo said:

 

The best thing a new player can do against any experienced player is fight at his best, and then after the fight be cool, dont get mad.   PM him/her and ask what you could have done differently or better?  

Most of the time they will try and help you.   As much crap as I give BLACK they will often give you pointers if you just ask.    Same for VCO, CKA, and dozen other clans.  

Thank you for your response. I don't want to put you in the spot but I'm asking specifics not just from you in general. Imagine you in military and just sent your recruits against the enemy with just your words above.

I think the enemy wouldn't be your biggest problem and you might "accidentally" find yourself get caught in the middle of some friendly fire. True story. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rigs

[Hodo]

15 minutes ago, Rigs said:

Thank you for your response. I don't want to put you in the spot but I'm asking specifics not just from you in general. Imagine you in military and just sent your recruits against the enemy with just your words above.

I think the enemy wouldn't be your biggest problem and you might "accidentally" find yourself get caught in the middle of some friendly fire. True story. 

I was military, and we did EXACTLY that.  Joint Readiness Training Center at Ft Polk LA (or JRTC), and the National Training Center at Ft Irwin CA, was for exactly this reason.   You have dedicated US military units that act as the "enemy" for extended periods of time, they are trained and operate equipment that is much like that of our nations most common adversaries.   They after every training exercise give an AAR (After Action Review), where they tell the unit they just curb stomped, what they did wrong, how they can improve and what they can do to minimize losses in those situations.  

 

And most importantly this is a game, not real life, learn from your mistakes and improve.  Because in real life you wouldnt have that opportunity.  

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

There are a couple of problems contributing to the decline in the utility of 6th and 7th rates. The first is the speed meta. It's far too easy to get a Wasa, Connie, or even Bellona up to speed cap and because they are such a heavier gun platform with more crew, even if they're glass cannon builds they're far more useful in the OW than ever before.

The second is that traders are slower (combined with the fact that there's no reason to trade) and you basically turn every open world encounter into one between warships. When I can run down a trader brig in a connie and demast it with a single broadside without really even needing to aim, why bring a privateer, especially when that connie gives me better survivability in encounters with warships?

Like @Hodo and @Landsman I hugely lament the decline in roles that smaller ships play. It's really sad to me because I'd never sail anything else if I had my choice.

Also, non-max-rank players who do sail smaller ships in groups are at a distinct disadvantage because battle rewards are not shared when your role is to take down sails or stern camp and grape crew, which further decreases the motivation for players to sail them.  This should be changed.

 

They really should remove the 15 knt cap on ships and make it only a percentage cap for each ship. So a ship that is 20% faster might go over 15 knts, but if can't than it can't.   This will give the fast small ships a chance since it takes very little for them to hit the cap.  Than all they have to do is tweek the 20% part of it to balance them more.  The other problem is some ships need to be updated and rebalance.  Connie and Aggy needs there old stats.  Hopefully we will see this soon with ship rebalance that is to come.

We need to bring back xp for damage for the last part as those little ships get nothing unless they do enough damage to get assist and kills.   Like the other day when we took those three Buccs. It would of not been done if the guys in low level ships jumped in with a H. Rattler and Prince and keep them in the battle until the rest of the ships could show up.  Those two players pretty much got nothing for there hard work.  Only the folks that got to keep the ships (captured) got something.  We did give one of the Bucc's to the H. Rattler player cause he could crew it.  The Prince is only rank 3 so he got nothing.

[BetaVape]

Since we always talk about NA being like Eve Online why not give Role Bonuses to underperforming ships? Make every ship useful for something. Bigger is better is kinda boring especially when there are so many nice 5th rates to choose from. Maybe if individual ship bonuses are too much to balance give class bonuses. Reduced accuracy versus smaller ships in PVP. Increased turn or speed vs larger ships. These are just examples of course other stuff could work just as well.