A vision for casual players

[Skully]

Our time is valuable so I'll keep it short and sweet, like a play session should be.

1. 30 minutes of preparation, crafting, trading, hauling or sailing, whatever is our fancy at that moment.
2. Optionally followed by 90 minutes of combat action, enjoying the best part that Naval Action has to offer. Like watching a good movie or playing a friendly football match. Give it all without pause for the fun of it.
3. Go back to our real lives in anticipation of another game play session.

I think that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Did I miss anything?

[Macjimm]

I alocate my time somewhat differently.

Preplanning - connect to the server of choice for the session, price check, check mail,  check contracts and disconnect = 15 - 30 min

Plot and plan journey,  estimate times, calculate costs and potential profit, enter details and plot in ship's log.  = 5 - 20 min.

Connect to server,  conduct trades, sell labour hours and sail between ports (as applicable)  10 min - 1 hr.

Disconnect and complete ship's log.  5-15 min.

Total times 30min to 2hrs.  But I'm pretty casual.   Occasionally I will play more than one session in the same day.  Very occasionally I'll play multiple sessions back to back.

I like the game.   It is mostly relaxing with rare moments of high excitement.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Macjimm
Spelink

[Thonys]

2 hours ago, Skully said:

Our time is valuable so I'll keep it short and sweet, like a play session should be.

1. 30 minutes of preparation, crafting, trading, hauling or sailing, whatever is our fancy at that moment.
2. Optionally followed by 90 minutes of combat action, enjoying the best part that Naval Action has to offer. Like watching a good movie or playing a friendly football match. Give it all without pause for the fun of it.
3. Go back to our real lives in anticipation of another game play session.

I think that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Did I miss anything?

YES.

Getting sunk in the mean time 

by not paying attention>  when sailing afk

and end up with nothing, and afterwards whining about it....

and then write bad reviews on steam (not you skully) 

so that sailor is not a casual, but a donkey sailor

Edited August 19, 2017 by Thonys

[Skully]

45 minutes ago, Thonys said:

when sailing afk

I would say such a complaint is valid. The game should not dictate our schedules.

We should rather look at why afk sailing is needed.

And see how it can be fixed without breaking other visions.

[Thonys]

well in eve i used warp or a jump trader

you still need to sail here

or we have to come-up with some thing new. 

like fast winds in certain areas (called:  trade winds)

but that has been mentioned times ago

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Thonys

[Skully]

Just now, Skully said:

@Ink we could let the Eurotrade be a buy contract, that sits on the market for say 3 days and can be fulfilled by any player before the Eurotrader arrives. WDYT?

[Thonys]

29 minutes ago, Skully said:

31 minutes ago, Skully said:

@Ink we could let the Eurotrade be a buy contract, that sits on the market for say 3 days and can be fulfilled by any player before the Eurotrader arrives. WDYT?

perhaps a  other idea is , you have a button, where you have every 3 hours ,... 2-3 minutes of double speed sailing ....only for traders.... at a certain area on the map ...

 

call it trade-wind areas

in the middle of the empty map areas

where pvp actions not really exists...

and at some angle for wind

button called:  trade-wind 

also >> what will highlight (green ) when in the area , and with a good sail  angle  for that direction  - /  + 30  degrees

would be a nice addition to the game

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Thonys

[IndianaGeoff]

Let me tell you what a casual player had done post patch.  I played the last version until server counts went down to 80.  At that point all we did was sail out and look for fights that never happened since the Pirates were tired of getting ganged up on.  I heard that at some point they came back and took ports back, but I wasn't there.  I left when the game was dead.  PvP 2 then Golbal of course.  I am a US player.  The US Brit alliance was server killing.

First, I didn't jump on at day one.  I hadn't been watching for the patch date and was busy anyway.  I did start playing about July I think.  Maybe late June.  All this is perceptions from memory to excuse me if I am not right.

First off, midshipman missions... what the heck are you thinking?  Throwing a new player into a 2 brig fight.  Stupid.  50k to buy a trader when you can find them?  Again, silly.  So I ground missions and AI's to get enough to get a decent ship.  Then ground more to buy a trader.   Looked at missions and saw they were still crap.  And went down to Cuba to run goods from Cayo to Shroud.  Good money, fairly safe in the off hours.  Got enough to get a couple brigs.  Things started to heat up when it went Pirate and I moved on.  Found a couple other honey pots, and started to get ahead in funds so I could build my shipyard.

Yes I am a trader who likes to build ships.  I build what I fight.  My clan was moving ahead and taking regions.  That's fine, but I play a different game and I only get a couple hours a night and not every night.

So after a month of grinding I was grinding funds to get my level 2 shipyard, and that is when I saw the prices (marks) for blue prints and permits.  Never really paid attention to that.  So a month of work and I still can't build any but a handful of ships. I was also slowed down by building ships for newbies.  They appreciate a life oak navy brig with good cannons.  Helps them get over the hump... or so I thought.

A month into it and I have got my Alt set up and running my money missions and I moved my main character to ship building and playing.  That is silly.  I start fighting more and find out that I can get about 10 marks a night.  Now someone will chime in and tell me how they can get 35 marks an hour in a cutter doing fleets.  OK.  good for you.  But this was about the time I figured out the slots.  So now I am grinding for gold, sailing for mats and I need to level ships.  It's now August and one thing is clear.  If I am going to be out doing PvE, I better be doing it in ships that will get me marks for other ships and exp for the ships I intend on fighting.  Since I stupidly lost the Connie I built, I was back to grinding for marks to build my next keeper ship.  Not sure how long it took, but I did get my Aggie built.

I have had that for a week and am doing missions regularly.  And the first slot is on the verge of unlocking.
 

I am done.  A week of work and I have enough marks to buy an upgrade, a blue print.  Not enough for a ship's permit.  I have not leveled the ship and I am sure the next 4 levels will come much slower. So I can do endless AI missions with one ship for, what, a year to max it out?  Get some marks to get more ships I can't max out.

Screw this.  I'll get on the game and do stuff, but it is unplayable.

Oh yea, I can go buy a Oak Surprise with Crew Size in the port.  That will be a lot of fun I am sure.  I can crank out endless Fir Fir ships and go grief newbies.  Since that happens nightly in Cton, it must be a lot of fun.

Saturday night, 100ish players online.  First 3 kills were at 12:00.  A couple more at 20:00.

[Justme]

13 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Let me tell you what a casual player had done post patch.  I played the last version until server counts went down to 80.  At that point all we did was sail out and look for fights that never happened since the Pirates were tired of getting ganged up on.  I heard that at some point they came back and took ports back, but I wasn't there.  I left when the game was dead.  PvP 2 then Golbal of course.  I am a US player.  The US Brit alliance was server killing.

First, I didn't jump on at day one.  I hadn't been watching for the patch date and was busy anyway.  I did start playing about July I think.  Maybe late June.  All this is perceptions from memory to excuse me if I am not right.

First off, midshipman missions... what the heck are you thinking?  Throwing a new player into a 2 brig fight.  Stupid.  50k to buy a trader when you can find them?  Again, silly.  So I ground missions and AI's to get enough to get a decent ship.  Then ground more to buy a trader.   Looked at missions and saw they were still crap.  And went down to Cuba to run goods from Cayo to Shroud.  Good money, fairly safe in the off hours.  Got enough to get a couple brigs.  Things started to heat up when it went Pirate and I moved on.  Found a couple other honey pots, and started to get ahead in funds so I could build my shipyard.

Yes I am a trader who likes to build ships.  I build what I fight.  My clan was moving ahead and taking regions.  That's fine, but I play a different game and I only get a couple hours a night and not every night.

So after a month of grinding I was grinding funds to get my level 2 shipyard, and that is when I saw the prices (marks) for blue prints and permits.  Never really paid attention to that.  So a month of work and I still can't build any but a handful of ships. I was also slowed down by building ships for newbies.  They appreciate a life oak navy brig with good cannons.  Helps them get over the hump... or so I thought.

A month into it and I have got my Alt set up and running my money missions and I moved my main character to ship building and playing.  That is silly.  I start fighting more and find out that I can get about 10 marks a night.  Now someone will chime in and tell me how they can get 35 marks an hour in a cutter doing fleets.  OK.  good for you.  But this was about the time I figured out the slots.  So now I am grinding for gold, sailing for mats and I need to level ships.  It's now August and one thing is clear.  If I am going to be out doing PvE, I better be doing it in ships that will get me marks for other ships and exp for the ships I intend on fighting.  Since I stupidly lost the Connie I built, I was back to grinding for marks to build my next keeper ship.  Not sure how long it took, but I did get my Aggie built.

I have had that for a week and am doing missions regularly.  And the first slot is on the verge of unlocking.
 

I am done.  A week of work and I have enough marks to buy an upgrade, a blue print.  Not enough for a ship's permit.  I have not leveled the ship and I am sure the next 4 levels will come much slower. So I can do endless AI missions with one ship for, what, a year to max it out?  Get some marks to get more ships I can't max out.

Screw this.  I'll get on the game and do stuff, but it is unplayable.

Oh yea, I can go buy a Oak Surprise with Crew Size in the port.  That will be a lot of fun I am sure.  I can crank out endless Fir Fir ships and go grief newbies.  Since that happens nightly in Cton, it must be a lot of fun.

Saturday night, 100ish players online.  First 3 kills were at 12:00.  A couple more at 20:00.

Shame this will be ignored.

[Macjimm]

Just now, IndianaGeoff said:

 Let me tell you ....

My experience is much different but ...

you wrote that very well and provided an excellent description of yours.

[Skully]

A couple of points worry me and I would like to ask for clarification.

6 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I build what I fight. My clan was moving ahead and taking regions.  That's fine, but I play a different game and I only get a couple hours a night and not every night.

Do you mean you build what you fight with? If so, then you set yourself a very high target.

6 hours ago, Justme said:

So after a month of grinding I was grinding funds to get my level 2 shipyard

It also took me a month to get my level 2 shipyard. I however did not grind towards it. I was crafting and trading Hull Repairs at the front lines.

One worrying detail was at some point 2 high level ship builders bickering over the price of labor hours. One was arguing it needs to be high because else he would not get any ROI, the other said the yards were done, so no extra money was needed.

The purpose of the cost is to give you a goal. The height of the goal is mostly a subjective issue.

There is however the problem of barrier to entry. Too high barriers make for not enough ship builders in places and times of need.

Did you craft all materials for ship(yard) building yourself or did you use other means as well?

6 hours ago, Justme said:

I have got my Alt set up

I just want to note that true casuals should not require an alt. I myself have enough hours in the day to mitigate such a need, so you (+ alt) and me should roughly be doing the same amount of hours / day.

But I think for the true casual that is already too much. You should be able to get a good play session of 2 hours with just 1 character at your disposal.

6 hours ago, Justme said:

Since I stupidly lost the Connie I built, I was back to grinding for marks to build my next keeper ship.  Not sure how long it took, but I did get my Aggie built.

I think you ran into a catch-22. You want to PvP, you need slots, for slots you need to fight, to PvP is to lose your ship, ergo you can only grind.

Would the reward proposal break the circle for you? 

Or would you still be facing some form of issue?

[IndianaGeoff]

1 hour ago, Skully said:

Or would you still be facing some form of issue?

The issue is the grind.  Grind for mats (that is ok), grind for gold (that is not too bad now that brigs can be capped), time to move stuff around, grind for marks, grind for slots, grind for more gold or sailing for rare mats (upgrades), grind for skill books, grind for upgrades.

I accept that this is a slow game.  It takes time to find mats and move them to your port.  Or it takes time to grind enough gold to pay cash (that market will die as the casuals leave).  It takes time to sail to the action and time to find it.  All those are cooked in the game.  The rest of the grinds just create a level of frustration.  I think that is what resulted in my clan (and others) with a long list of Rear Admirals who quit in July.  They looked at the time needed to get 2 or 3 top ships to compete in the top content and said "screw it".

When I look at the time I have put in the game in two months and compare the advancement I would have had in other games... it does not pay out.  And the numbers prove it.

Quote

" Do you mean you build what you fight with? If so, then you set yourself a very high target. " 

Why is that a high target?  I am not building 1st rates.  I'll probably never build them unless I am supported by other players.  There is no reason why a casual should not be able to build a ship or two a week.  Taking this long and this many hours to get to this point is silly.  I was able to do it last year.  No, I don't' want to go back to the days when I had a fast rattler, surprise, connie and Buc in every port.  That was silly.  But a casual should be able to have a handful of ships and one or two of them top tier.  Besides, with player counts crashed, building your own ships is almost a necessity.  And this is with me putting the time and effort into building a system to support my ship building.

 

1 hour ago, Skully said:

I think you ran into a catch-22. You want to PvP, you need slots, for slots you need to fight, to PvP is to lose your ship, ergo you can only grind.

Would the reward proposal break the circle for you? 

No it does not.  I know there are a blizzard of proposals to force people to PvP.  I enjoy some PvP, but we don't need to reward it.  People will do PvP for free.  If you lose, there is no reward to replace what you lose.  Throwing a few thousand to a loser isn't going to fix that.  How long does it take to replace a good ship? 

Time is the valuable commodity in this game.  And that is why I use an alt for trading.  It saves me time.  Cost me 40 bucks, and having a preposition-ed trade setup that can AFK sail has been totally worth it.  If I didn't have it, I would have quit long ago.

[Macjimm]

24 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

•  But a casual should be able to have a handful of ships and one or two of them top tier.  
•  I know there are a blizzard of proposals to force people to PvP.  I enjoy some PvP, but we don't need to reward it.  People will do PvP for free. 
• Time is the valuable commodity in this game.  And that is why I use an alt for trading.  It saves me time.   If I didn't have it, I would have quit long ago.

The guy makes a lot of sense.  If he has his facts straight.

I don't have any ships in the top tier.  How does it take to obtain one in game?
There seems to be no mechanics to force PvP in ARMA or ED.  Doesn't seem to be rewards either.  But players still like to PvP (or TvT).
I've never had an alt but it would save me time.  Currently I have to wait to find someone to trade with.

[Skully]

34 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

The issue is the grind.

Currently the grind is through PvE, which provides "entertainment" for 1. If the relative improvement of PvP is increased, then you should be able to grind through PvP, providing entertainment for 2.

My question is whether my reward proposal would be enough to move from grind in PvE to grind in PvP. WDYT?

36 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Why is that a high target?

The alternative is just buying a ship and use that one to fight. There is, or should be, a path through the middle.
How much of the ship did you build yourself? Did you make use of Clan or market bought materials?

40 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

How long does it take to replace a good ship?

I can't tell for sure in the upcoming patch. At least the blueprints should be changed to make life easier. I also think my proposal will give more than just a few thousand, but again it will need fine tuning.

9 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

There seems to be no mechanics to force PvP in ARMA or ED.

Basic ARMA doesn't have crafting or economics. Not true conquest. Once you do something like CTI, then rewards kick into play.

I thought ED PvP was only for Harry Potter. If you see him and do not wish to PvP you simply fly 1000+ light years in a different direction.

Which interestingly makes way for a conclusion that the game does force us to PvP because this sandbox is too small for one-another. 

12 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

I've never had an alt but it would save me time. Currently I have to wait to find someone to trade with.

Needing an alt for trading / smuggling is just wrong. Having an alt for trading / smuggling is no problem and your own choice.

 

[Sang Noir]

On 8/19/2017 at 8:47 AM, Skully said:

 

1. 30 minutes of preparation, crafting, trading, hauling or sailing, whatever is our fancy at that moment.
2. Optionally followed by 90 minutes of combat action, enjoying the best part that Naval Action has to offer. Like watching a good movie or playing a friendly football match. Give it all without pause for the fun of it.
3. Go back to our real lives in anticipation of another game play session.

This would be a clearly defined and stated goal. All actions in improving the game should go towards such a direction.  Add in rewards like badges, figureheads, colors, flags and avatars for people to put up on their ships and profiles (a logbook) to remember the good times they had in this game. +1

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jean de la Rochelle