Wapen von Hamburg

[Captain Lust]

What buffs could the WvH receive to be more viable in PvP? Would a bit more speed make it OP?

[Zoky]

Pvp like PB or OW PvP?

Edited August 8, 2017 by Zoky

[Captain Lust]

10 minutes ago, Zoky said:

Pvp like PB or OW PvP?

Any i guess... for PB it can't beat aga and for OW you might aswell use Bellona... ( even buc is faster than Wapen )

Edited August 8, 2017 by Captain Lust

[Sir Texas Sir]

You apparently haven't fought any one that loves the Wapen (I can't stand it). It's got killer turn rate so that is it's pluss.  Though it has a high bleed off of speed, but it can out turn just about all the 4th rates.

[_Masterviolin]

Wappen is already an excellent ship, I was shocked how quickly she tacked when I was fighting a few Frenchmen sailing Wappens. Screwed up my own turn, my Aggie clipped his stern

Tough, wicked maneuverable, that's more than enough.

[Hodo]

The Wappen is a 5th rate trapped in a 4th rate ship.  That thing can out turn a Indefatigable, Endymion and the Trincomalee with ease.   

It has more firepower than the Constitution and turns better.   It is a real agile ship, not like the Eggs N Bacon or the Iron Sides.  

The Wappen is the brawlers ship.

[Captain Lust]

I've never seen it used to much success in pvp tbh...

[William Death]

9 hours ago, Captain Lust said:

for PB it can't beat aga and for OW you might aswell use Bellona...

Not necessarily: it has a heavier carro broadside than Aggy, better turn rate, and more HP and thickness. It is a very good brawler. Another consideration for Wapen is the height of her sides: while they make for an excellent target to shoot at, they can also give you advantages (or disadvantages) in boarding because of deck height differrence.

For OW group PvP, I prefer the Bellona above almost all other ships (I like demasting and Bellona's guns are great for that), so do I have an admitted bias there. However, if you already have slots open on a Wapen as your 4th rate PB ship, it might be easier for you to just craft a lighter Wapen for OW PvP. That being said, between the two ships, Wapen still holds her turn rate advantage and her 4 bow and 4 stern chasers can make for nice sail shredders.

I think a small speed buff wouldn't make her OP, but too much would. Current base speed for Wapen is 11.18 vs the Agamemnon at 11.12, the Ingermanland is at 11.66, and Constitution is at 12.23. With those numbers, I think Agamemnon could be buffed to 11.24, Wapen to 11.44, and Ingermanland to 11.82 (.12kn faster than Bellona). 

One thing that the Wapen used to have, but I now find missing, is her mast thickness. Now her masts are just about average for a fourth rate. She used to have VERY thick masts, making her a difficult opponent to demast. I felt that was one of her good qualities, and something that made up for the low number of 24pdrs (meaning it will take you longer to demast an enemy with more 24pdrs) and the rather lackluster upwind performance.

[Captain Lust]

25 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

it has a heavier carro broadside than Aggy

Yeah, good luck with penetration the aga with carronades... that is if you hit at all ( the height and spread of the guns is insane on Wapen )

27 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

better turn rate

Well, yeah otherwise it would be complete garbage...

28 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

more HP and thickness

Actually the aga has a tiny bit more hp and the Wapen has 69 thickness over the agas 68... not exactly a big deal.

31 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

I prefer the Bellona above almost all other ships

And rightfully so... ship balance is so piss poor everyone might aswell sail surprises and bellonas exclusively...

[Captain Lust]

8 hours ago, Hodo said:

 That thing can out turn a Indefatigable, Endymion and the Trincomalee with ease.

I feel like thats all that it has going for it...

 

[William Death]

1 hour ago, Captain Lust said:

Actually the aga has a tiny bit more hp and the Wapen has 69 thickness over the agas 68... not exactly a big deal.

From the Wiki (I can't check my ships at this moment in game): Agamemnon: 6030 HP/68cm, Wapen: 6500 HP/69cm, Constitution: 6120HP/70cm, Ingermanland: 5670HP/65cm.   However, you are correct, 1cm thickness isn't too much, but once start angling it (using your good turn rate) and it can make a small difference. 

1 hour ago, Captain Lust said:

Yeah, good luck with penetration the aga with carronades... that is if you hit at all ( the height and spread of the guns is insane on Wapen )

I don't have a problem with carronades penetrating. If you are trying to fight a tough ship at 250m+ then you won't get the pen. But if you are close enough, they do a lot of damage. I run the Wapen with 24L/18L/9L/12C, so I don't put out quite the same broadside weight as an Aggy with all longs, but I am only 12pds less (588 vs 600 pounds per broadside). It is true that the Aggy has more of the 24 and 18pdrs per broadside, but I've never had a problem with Wapens lower heavy gun count.  But again, thats all personal preference for how you like to run the ship, I like carronades and run them often, but I know that some people absolutely hate carronades and avoid using them.

About height and spread of guns: I don't know what problems you are having with the spread, but that can be altered with various accuracy mods (also, make sure you try swapping "FireZone Visual" in graphics settings from "Projected" to "Geometry" and see if you prefer that firing mode [I really like it]). Admittedly, the height of the guns can be a disadvantage if you are very close to your enemy, but if you keep 100m between you or more, you can use the height to your advantage: you have increased range for hitting sails and masts. This makes chaining enemy ships with the Wapen really efficient.

I think it boils down to this: Wapen is more of a specialty ship: she excels in a few areas, but is a bit disappointing in a number of others. I like the ship, I prefer it to Connie or Aggy, but Inger is still tied with it as my favorite fourth rate (glass cannon FTW ).

A duel between a Wapen and a Bellona would be interesting to watch... If the Bellona can demast with reasonable skill and speed, he should be safe; but if he cannot, the duel becomes a much harder challenge for him (though certainly still slanted in the Bellona's favor) due to the Wapen's high turn rate & ability to bounce broadsides while stern raking the Bellona. 

1 hour ago, Captain Lust said:

And rightfully so... ship balance is so piss poor everyone might aswell sail surprises and bellonas exclusively...

Thank the speed cap for the lack of balance. It needs to go and we need diminishing returns for stacking speed mods. Then we can have a more balanced OW again. However, Bellonas should rightfully be the OW big ship of choice: that is the role that many third rates served historically (as fifth rate hunters and flagships of smaller squadrons). 

[Slamz]

If your enemy is sailing in speed-rigged 5th rates, Wapen is the weapon you want. It has a lot of guns of relatively lower weight, making it ideal for blasting through the sides of all those fir/fir Surprises and Cerbs.

If your enemy is sailing in tanked out 4th rates or Bellonas then yeah, Wapen is not a great choice. That high count of lower weight cannons is less than ideal for fighting a LO/WO Aggie or any type of Bellona. For that work you need your own big guns.

My assessment has been:

Constitution for general purpose jack-of-all-trades PvP. If you don't know what you're facing, you can't go too wrong with a Connie.
Ingermanland for tank-breaking on a bit of a budget. Big guns.
Wapen for smashing fir/fir 5th rates in brawls.
Bellona for basically everything but it does require a level 3 shipyard and is a bit of overkill when fighting fir 5th rates.

I bet a Wapen/Surprise combo would be a nice one. 8 butt guns! If you get jumped you have a lot of rear facing firepower to throw off pursuit, so even with the slow speed of the Wapen I bet you could get away from a lot of stuff. And if you decide to brawl, it should prove to be a great combo for the stuff you typically run into (4x fir surprise vs 1 teak Wapen + 1 fir surprise would be real interesting, I bet). And the Surprise can be the runner meant to get the good tags and slow down the victims so the Wapen can catch up.

I think if you gave the Wapen more speed it would just displace the Constitution as the general purpose PvP ship. Being slow is the main thing it has going against it.

[Captain Lust]

9 hours ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Thank the speed cap for the lack of balance.

Yes, but not entirely...

[Malachy]

The wappen turns nice on paper, but with her speed bleed off, a fast Connie will out fight her. You can easily use your higher speed to out maneuver a wappen if you know how to do it. It's not hard to stay on her stern and once she gets nosed into the wind, see ya next week. Her high decks make raking her easy as pie especially at longer distances. The Aggie actually keeps her speed through turns a lot better than the wappen. All in all, not much you can do to make that ship good. Both of the other 4th rates are clearly superior in almost every way that matters. She's also ugly as hell so that doesn't help her much. I'm looking forward to actually being able to break down wappens for parts this time. Before the wipe you had to delete them so they were worthless to capture. 

[Captain Lust]

On 10.8.2017 at 0:34 AM, Malachy said:

All in all, not much you can do to make that ship good. Both of the other 4th rates are clearly superior in almost every way that matters. She's also ugly as hell so that doesn't help her much. I'm looking forward to actually being able to break down wappens for parts this time. Before the wipe you had to delete them so they were worthless to capture. 

Sad but true...