why bringing ship capture back?

[Vernon Merrill]

26 minutes ago, Wind Catcher said:

I don't get why everyone is crying here, is this community made of kids or something? Grow up people. This is a great change that will benefit everyone including Developers. There will be no major harm done with return of weak free ships. 

Yes, Mr. "I have 15 posts", please tell us who have tested this ad nauseum for two years how much more you know than us....  

To Ink and Admin, can we please at least limit it to 5ths and below...  Free ships should NOT influence RvR...  (and I dont even care about RvR).

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

 Maybe instead lower a bit the price for npc ships in shops or increase low rank missions/pvp kills gold rewards, because what will happen with npc cap ships will be nothing more than free suicide fireships, even more now than fireship fittings are a skillbooks, not a perma upgrade you need to craft at a cost..

 

 This will be a fail feature i think, noobs rarely understand the fleet/perks mecanism, i think that mostly this will result in a lot of undercrewed legrosventre, ganked solo players in shitty npc ships thinking fitted pvper are all cheaters, no market for 6th&7th rank ships.  Newcomers less looking for guilds.

 For the only benefit of free stuff for solo casual newcomers wich will quit quickly anyway because they will not understand how capping npc ship is what make them sux.  

 

Bad move, the only problem i can see with the no cap for bots was the inhability to bring back loot in basic cutter after boarding an npc trader, all the rest is a combat rewards balance matter.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Salty Dog.]

I'll admit it, I didn't like loosing the ability to capture ships when it was removed... But I like it now.  Please don't bring it back.  If you're set on helping out new players, limit the capture to  6th rates or ONLY traders.

[Guest]

[Grundal]

This will benefit new players.  Up to 5th or 4th rate does not matter.  This is alpha.  Test away

Last night a clan mate and I jumped a player trader fleet.  Two enemy surprises came to there rescue.  so a 2v2 surp fight (all players were in surps) was on.  but they (the 2 surps) ran away.  the perfect dream scenario - a 2v2 open world arena fight.  WoT match maker could not create a better match.  and an epic fail.

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, Captain Two Toes Magoo said:

This will benefit new players.  Up to 5th or 4th rate does not matter.  This is alpha.  Test away

Last night a clan mate and I jumped a player trader fleet.  Two enemy surprises came to there rescue.  so a 2v2 surp fight (all players were in surps) was on.  but they (the 2 surps) ran away.  the perfect dream scenario - a 2v2 open world arena fight.  WoT match maker could not create a better match.  and an epic fail.

Even in ST player ran away and there was no loss.

[Wind Catcher]

1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Yes, Mr. "I have 15 posts", please tell us who have tested this ad nauseum for two years how much more you know than us....  

To Ink and Admin, can we please at least limit it to 5ths and below...  Free ships should NOT influence RvR...  (and I dont even care about RvR).

Oh, you are one of those guys who drives a Truck to compensate for what is missing. Well good for you with your activity numbers.  No need to assume others are noobs, all I know is I am here from day 1 like most of you I hope. 5th rate- 4th rates make no difference as limitations on capped ships will make them useless vs player built. 

P.S. all these negative reviews on Steam are clearly a major community fault, as they do suggest damaging ideas and oppose the ones that would benefit Developers and this game. In the end crippling development all together. I just hope Developers do not listen to any of us and stay firm with their decisions. Forum is for brainstorming and not for game development planning. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[Slamz]

2 hours ago, Ink said:

We really believe that it will make 5th rate pvp easier and ease some hurdles for players who are just starting. Captured ships won't match the options the crafted vessels can provide

Huge thumbs down for this.

I like to know that I cost my enemy a little more than 5 minutes of rage-boarding some NPC when I sink them.

It's also immensely unfair to lose, say, a custom built Connie, Aggie or Bellona to a gank group sailing around in Frigates, Surprises and apparently even Connies of their own that cost them nothing and can be replaced with no hauling, no trading, no marks, and just a tiny amount of time.

 

Bad idea.

Very bad idea.

The worst.

Maintain no NPC ship captures on PvP servers. It is too cheap, too easy and will wreck the economy and therefore much of the point of PvP.

Personally I cannot fathom why I would ever bother building ships again or care about port ownership when NPC captures will be 95% as good as anything I would have custom built.

Ugh.

[Wind Catcher]

23 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Huge thumbs down for this.

I like to know that I cost my enemy a little more than 5 minutes of rage-boarding some NPC when I sink them.

It's also immensely unfair to lose, say, a custom built Connie, Aggie or Bellona to a gank group sailing around in Frigates, Surprises and apparently even Connies of their own that cost them nothing and can be replaced with no hauling, no trading, no marks, and just a tiny amount of time.

 

Bad idea.

Very bad idea.

The worst.

Maintain no NPC ship captures on PvP servers. It is too cheap, too easy and will wreck the economy and therefore much of the point of PvP.

Personally I cannot fathom why I would ever bother building ships again or care about port ownership when NPC captures will be 95% as good as anything I would have custom built.

Ugh.

Listen to yourself. You don't even know the details and already made your monitor dirty. I would assume this reaction from all the shipbuilders, as all they care about is cash. Let's wait for patch details and test. It's so funny to see how community is in control of Developer team thinking their 'no' will make them change their mind. Do you think if you stop building ships, others will do the same? Nope Econ will grow and live on. Excuse my direct words, but I really hope nothing on this Forum effects Developer decisions as it could lead the whole project to a complete disaster. 

I personally want to shake Developers hands for moving forward with NPC capture return and remain firm with it despite many shipbuilders tell you NO.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[Slamz]

1 hour ago, Havelock said:

Currently, every change that promotes PvP and reduces loss is a good direction imho.

It didn't promote PvP when it was in before, nor did 5 durability.

It really comes down to ego. People will run away in their absolutely 100% free Surprise just as fast as they will run away in a 1st rate. It was never the pain of ship loss that caused it. 5th rates are not that painful to lose, especially for an established clan. We just don't like to die.

People would run away in WOW too and the death penalty in that game was literally nothing.

You promote PvP by giving people something to fight over, which I think patch 10 and hotfixes have done a good job of. But it's hard to get people past the ego problem.

[shaeberle84]

Bad idea, if it is unrestricted.

Make them capturable, but to sail them you need  to buy a permit using marks. That will make them somewhat expensive. Otherwhise, we will habe a ton of priceless ships nobody wants.

[Slamz]

1 hour ago, AlteSocken said:

Since it's still testing I guess we're bound to wait 'n see what happens ...

Problem is we have already seen what happens. We tested this already.

Used to be, you could build a 5 durability custom ship or you could capture an NPC ship with 1 dura. This made the NPC ships a little unattractive because you wouldn't put good mods on a ship with 1 dura. So player-built ships were still popular.

I can imagine they could allow capturable NPC ships with NO permanents and NO ship knowledge slots. This would allow player-built ships to retain some value.

But I think even that is a mistake. A free Connie will still be 90-95% as good as a custom one.

[CatSwift]

If giving people NPC ship capture will make them happier and have more fun by improving their in game experience, then I'm all for it.  More people in game will improve OW PvP, whether those people actively go searching for PvP or not.  Even though I don't think NPC capture will drastically affect the ship market, there are plenty of ways to make money besides crafting/selling ships.  People will adapt.

[shaeberle84]

2 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Problem is we have already seen what happens. We tested this already.

Used to be, you could build a 5 durability custom ship or you could capture an NPC ship with 1 dura. This made the NPC ships a little unattractive because you wouldn't put good mods on a ship with 1 dura. So player-built ships were still popular.

I can imagine they could allow capturable NPC ships with NO permanents and NO ship knowledge slots. This would allow player-built ships to retain some value.

But I think even that is a mistake. A free Connie will still be 90-95% as good as a custom one.

Unless you have a totally balanced 1vs1, captured ships are quite as good as best-possible ships. Even if they are only 10% as good, they are basically for free, while the best-possible ships cost millions in upgrades and better cannons.

[Christendom]

PVP is already broken with the 15knt Bellona bullshit, so it's not like this will break it any further.  Worst thing that could of happened to this game was putting in the speed cap and making cannons absurdly expensive.  

[Wind Catcher]

9 minutes ago, shaeberle84 said:

Unless you have a totally balanced 1vs1, captured ships are quite as good as best-possible ships. Even if they are only 10% as good, they are basically for free, while the best-possible ships cost millions in upgrades and better cannons.

If you sail on all unlocked pvp ready ship and meet new guy in free boat I am sure you will have no problem to show him who is the Captain here as his free ship should only have 1 slot open and be much less threat to you. Providing new players with pvp experience is a great way to improve pvp population overall. In this case players will have fun, learn and return to pvp more with no questions asked and eventually even sail in player built ship as they become more experienced. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[RaimundoJoe]

1 minute ago, Wind Catcher said:

If you sail on all unlocked pvp ready ship and meet new guy in free boat I am sure you will have no problem to show him who is the Captain here as his free ship should only have 1 slot open and be much less threat to you. 

What if that open slot is "fireship"?

[Cimbi]

9 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Problem is we have already seen what happens. We tested this already.

Used to be, you could build a 5 durability custom ship or you could capture an NPC ship with 1 dura. This made the NPC ships a little unattractive because you wouldn't put good mods on a ship with 1 dura. So player-built ships were still popular.

I can imagine they could allow capturable NPC ships with NO permanents and NO ship knowledge slots. This would allow player-built ships to retain some value.

But I think even that is a mistake. A free Connie will still be 90-95% as good as a custom one.

Remove ship knowledge and problem solved.If you can use 5 slots on player build ship and zero slots on captured ship.Well, thats a huge difference.

[Wind Catcher]

6 minutes ago, AxIslander said:

What if that open slot is "fireship"?

Your long guns tell you stay at range and keep firing until there is nothing left. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[RaimundoJoe]

2 minutes ago, Wind Catcher said:

Your long guns tell you stay at range. 

You missed the point! Its Basic Cutter fireship revisited.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by AxIslander

[Wind Catcher]

7 minutes ago, AxIslander said:

You missed the point!

I don't think I did since I do not know the patch details, if there are no slots for upgrades then your point is obsolete. This means NPC capped basic cutter won't be able or will be restricted to certain skills. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[Slamz]

31 minutes ago, Christendom said:

PVP is already broken with the 15knt Bellona bullshit, so it's not like this will break it any further.  Worst thing that could of happened to this game was putting in the speed cap and making cannons absurdly expensive.  

15 knot Bellonas got removed in that last hotfix. Most ships cannot reach 15 knots now, and the speed mods themselves have more negatives, which can be a pain if you stack them up. It was a good fix and I think it did a lot of damage to the Pirate's favorite meta.

23 minutes ago, Cimbi said:

Remove ship knowledge and problem solved.If you can use 5 slots on player build ship and zero slots on captured ship.Well, thats a huge difference.

I keep telling people that they shouldn't worry so much about ship knowledge slots. That a good player in a 0 knowledge Connie will beat a mediocre player in a 5 knowledge Connie every time. Similarly, 3 people in Surprises with 0 knowledge slots will beat 1 person in a Surprise with 5 knowledge slots (or in a Connie, for that matter).

I think people spend way too much time trying to grind out knowledge slots when it's a very rare PvP battle that is so close that a couple of knowledge slots would make a difference. They are nice-to-haves. They are not mandatory. Same for permanents. Especially now that speed buffs have been greatly reduced, because that was the #1 most important knowledge and permanents you needed. (Speed slots still help but now I'm probably going 5% faster rather than 20% faster.)

Just as a for-example:

In PvE I can stack up reload slots and it's great.

In PvP I am more frequently waiting on maneuvers, so I find stacking up reloads to be questionable. Most people don't just sail broadside to broadside and trade shots as fast as reload happens. If they are nose towards me (because they know I'm loaded and want to shoot) then I need to maneuver and hold until I get a better shot, thus wasting my stacked reload bonuses.

PvP doesn't benefit from knowledge slots quite like PvE does (with the exception of speed mods).

To put it another way, if my choice is a 3/5 custom Connie that costs thousands of labor hours and lots of hauling to build, or a 0/0 Connie that I capped in 5 minutes on the OW, I can't imagine why I would ever build a Connie again.

We will build some custom tacklers and everyone else will be in captured ships.

19 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Like others, I'd like to see ship buy contracts.

I do think that would help a lot.

My clan is pretty organized and we could supply France with PvP ships for a reasonable cost. Good for them, good for us.

But I'm loath to just sell them in the shop because they are as likely to go to an enemy as to an ally. And I don't entirely know what people want. Used to be we couldn't have buy orders because of the RNG nature of shipbuilding but now that there is no RNG, we should have buy orders. I think people would PvP more if they had better access to good PvP ships, and we would be more likely to sell them if we saw who was placing the order. In a small nation like France, we can fairly easily tell if this is a known Frenchman or possibly someone's foreign alt.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Slamz

[RaimundoJoe]

If the devs really want to help PvP and new players, i dont think this is the answer. The answer should be Make ships/cannons cheaper and make a PvP area, so that PvPers can easily find what they want. 

[Slamz]

1 minute ago, AxIslander said:

If the devs really want to help PvP and new players, i dont think this is the answer. The answer should be Make ships/cannons cheaper and make a PvP area, so that PvPers can easily find what they want. 

The "PvP area" is actually the contention grind.

I know some people will poo-poo this idea but I also bet they have not tried to grind contention on a prime-time port of a team that actually cares. Anyone who wants to create a PvP zone just needs to sail to enemy water, find their favorite port and start killing NPCs. When that contention gets high enough, the enemy will start showing up, is my experience.

But I do agree that if the devs think ship cost is the problem, there are less drastic ways to address that. They could just cut the materials cost of everything 4th rate and under, and make cannons up to 24 pounders be a lot cheaper. (I kinda like 4th rates being pricey though. I could see cutting the cost of 5th rates, though.)

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Give with one hand, take out with the other. Capture NPCs to make long term stay in one area and promote early life comfort ... but remove wholesale teleports to promote proper veterancy challenge and Nation management ( only debug teleport to remain ).

Needs testing. Thank you.