Meta speed addressed before or after Unity5. Public Opinion. POLL

[admin]

1 minute ago, Rickard said:

so 51 people think speed caps are more important than a new game engine? wow..... priorities guys.

those are just number changes 
only need a minor hot fix

[Iroquois Confederacy]

26 minutes ago, admin said:

Lets start with introducing penalties to pure speed mods and slightly reducing the buffs they generate.
If it won't be enough we will rebalance the speed cap. 

The end result is still the same.  Pile as many speed mods on as possible until you hit 15kn.  Percent-based caps are the way to go.

[Captain Lust]

31 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Percent-based caps are the way to go.

I would like to see this... best idea so far ( and shouldn't be hard to implement either )...

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

 I don't understand how this topic is made, the pool is already closed after 9hours ?  And we can't wish to keep the speed cap but rebalance speed bonuses ?

 I personally find good things in hardcap, differents ships are able to hit the cap, so there is not only one or two viable pvp ships. You can nearly make any ship viable.

 However, the ability to stack an infinite number of speed bonuses make it broken. If there was a 15-20% speed bonus cap + a 15kn hardcap i would be pleased and everything would be fine.

 

 Making all refits or skillbooks less powerfull will solve nothing and will take time to balance,  and removing the 15kn limit with just a bonus % limit would lead to some unrealistic turbo ships running like motorboats 

 

 A % bonus limit + 15kn hardcap would be easier and the way to go.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Luc]

47 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

The end result is still the same.  Pile as many speed mods on as possible until you hit 15kn.  Percent-based caps are the way to go.

+1

[Cecil Selous]

But isn't this the main problems of the meta? You must speed fit your ship to be viable in pvp. If you can't afford to upgrade every of your ships to 15 kn then better pray to not run into a group where usually one always hits the speed cap (if not all of them). Of course I am speaking from the perspective of a solo captain with no support. Clan players maybe often have the resources or the help of fellow clan mates to do that. But the fact is still that you almost get forced to speed fit your ship.

Why can't we return to something more real? Which parameters define the speed of a ship and how can they be tweaked?

• hull form
• lenght of the waterline
• weight
• weight distribution and sail trim (god I would love a more complex sailing model where the player has to actively do something to get the best performance out of his ship)
• a clean hull below the waterline (would also give the copper plating a more authentic purpose) --> maybe careening or simple maintenance for gold in player shipyards (any shipyard, not just your own, generates also another source of income) in ports
• variable wind strenghts with all its consequences to make every ship viable in different circumstances (already suggested countless times)
• a lot of others which I can't think of right now but our ship and sailing experts surely know more

From there we can introduce some upgrades that alter those parameters and also make a percentage-based cap for every ship. Yes there will be only a few ships, which can reach the highest speeds ingame. But we had this before and I can't remember many complaints about that. In some wind conditions they will lose this advantage and other ships will shine. But a meta where almost every ship can reach 15 kn is just hello kittying ridiculous. The 15 kn themselves are hello kittying ridiculous.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Cecil Selous

[Zoky]

33 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

 

Lets start with introducing penalties to pure speed mods and slightly reducing the buffs they generate.
If it won't be enough we will rebalance the speed cap. 

 

This is exactly what i feared. Nerf to every speed mod across the board instead of tweaking individual ships.

[Vernon Merrill]

2 minutes ago, Zoky said:

This is exactly what i feared. Nerf to every speed mod across the board instead of tweaking individual ships.

The ships already have built-in sailing profiles.... so why SHOULDNT the nerfs be across the board?

 

[Vernon Merrill]

1 hour ago, Rickard said:

so 51 people think speed caps are more important than a new game engine? wow..... priorities guys.

You dont think the priority should be maintaining a playable game??

[Zoky]

Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

3 minutes ago, Zoky said:

 

The ships already have built-in sailing profiles.... so why SHOULDNT the nerfs be across the board?

Because coni, aga and belona has plenty of armor,structure and other stuff to sacrifice for 15kn build, 5 rates dont. And believe me they will make coni go 15kn again after nerfs

[Zoky]

And if you think that situation is unfair now wait till you have to build your 5 rate fir/fir to reach 15kn and then get sank in 1 broadside from 15kn conni

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

@Zoky you quoted admin, not me,  i am against a speed upgrades nerf, that would just mean that you need more of them and a higher price, i just want a %bonus cap like we have for thickness and armour hp + the 15kn cap.

Tweaking wind profile for  each ships is another topic.

[Zoky]

sorry if I misquoted you

[Luc]

2 minutes ago, Zoky said:

And if you think that situation is unfair now wait till you have to build your 5 rate fir/fir to reach 15kn and then get sank in 1 broadside from 15kn conni

This is exact one of the problem. Big ships a lot more advantage of current situation. 

[Zoky]

Problem is that coni has same base speed as most 5 rates while having much more armor thickness and hp. So coni has bigger pool of resources to sacrifice for 15kn speed while others dont. So if you force people to build fir/fir 5 rates it will only make mater worse. They can actually bounce something now if angled but good luck doing that in fir/fir ship

[Captain Lust]

31 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

Why can't we return to something more real? Which parameters define the speed of a ship and how can they be tweaked?

• hull form
• lenght of the waterline
• weight
• weight distribution and sail trim (god I would love a more complex sailing model where the player has to actively do something to get the best performance out of his ship)
• a clean underwater ship (would also give the copper plating a more authentic purpose) --> maybe careening or simple maintenance for gold in player shipyards (any shipyard, not just your own, generates also another source of income) in ports
• variable wind strenghts with all its consequences to make every ship viable in different circumstances (already suggested countless times)
• a lot of others which I can't think of right now but our ship and sailing experts surely know more

From there we can introduce some upgrades that alter those parameters and also make a percentage-based cap for every ship. Yes there will be only a few ships, which can reach the highest speeds ingame. But we had this before and I can't remember many complaints about that. In some wind conditions they will lose this advantage and other ships will shine. But a meta where almost every ship can reach 15 kn is just hello kittying ridiculous. The 15 kn themselves are hello kittying ridiculous.

Can you hire this guy? I think he gets it...

[Hodo]

4 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

Before we just had 2 speed mods, copper plating and speed trim (with huge negatives). Now we have too many speed mods. Just remove them from the game.

It is funny, I had never heard of a ship from the Crooked region being faster than any ship from Cuba... or the ships built in the Bovenwinds area being better sailors than the ships built in Jamaica.   

The only ships I have heard of being a step above was the Bermuda sail cutters, but that is a sail plan layout not a refit.  

 

[Hodo]

43 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

 

• variable wind strenghts with all its consequences to make every ship viable in different circumstances (already suggested countless times)

I can already hear the cries now of the players who only sail SoLs... The winds are to light and my ship wont move more than 3kn.   While a Lynx dances around them at 8kn in light winds.   And then they capsize their precious 5th rate because they were running to much sail in a gale wind.  

[Koltes]

2 hours ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

The end result is still the same.  Pile as many speed mods on as possible until you hit 15kn.  Percent-based caps are the way to go.

what do you mean? there is currently 2 issues at hand.

1. Slow ships can hit 15kn
2. Fast ships cant go past 15kn

Proper balance will use:
1. Ship rate coefficients
2. Stuckable penalties

Thus using same mods/upgrades on different ships will give different bonuses. We'll be making ships unique again and designed for the intended purpose

Edited July 20, 2017 by koltes

[Captain Lust]

14 minutes ago, Hodo said:

And then they capsize their precious 5th rate because they were running to much sail in a gale wind.

I know this would kill the casual players off even more ( if that is possible at all ) but i would love sailing taking more skill tbh and i know people would hate it but i would love the possibility of capsizing if you hello kitty up...

[Hodo]

27 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

I know this would kill the casual players off even more ( if that is possible at all ) but i would love sailing taking more skill tbh and i know people would hate it but i would love the possibility of capsizing if you hello kitty up...

I know I have had my Lynxes keel completely out of the water with one mod setup.  I was running at 90 to the wind and had almost a 17deg list sailing straight.  

[huliotkd]

actually the speed cap is the only thing that can balance OW.

i see now more than before the wipe a big variety of PVP group, 3 -4 player in 3-4 different ship cause where Bellona fails Surprise doesn't and you need both, 1 for catch 1 for kill...

 

if you remove speed-cap, you will see single PVPers in motorboat Surprise killing everything without risking nothing cause he can go at 25 knots and the rest of player (0,001%because not all have an alt acc in nation who sells special module woods, or have so much time to sail 4 hours to reach cartaghena to buy 5 log of it, or maybe nothing because a closer player put a contract for 1000 cartagena tar and the port produce 5 at hour) can reach only 24 maybe...so people will leave fast cause only one who can play PVP is the player with more contracts for bonewind, or something else.

also nerfing the bonus or malus will kill the PVP in the same way...i don't care if my 25knots bonus will reduce my ship HP at 1 point...no one will never put 1 single ball on me cause i have all the bonus of the game and no one can reach me.

PVP is based on skil, not % of magic...

skill is: same condition or a little, but very little, difference on speed and all better ability in manual sail in the right moment to avoid shots and hit enemy few second later and manouver faster or better and so on...

actually the game is: ''you can't go above 15knots...so show me what you can do with your skill in a equal-condition battle''

 

remove speedcap and you will kill your PVP...or your game

[Slamz]

6 hours ago, Liquicity said:

I'm fearing that this will then lead to the fact that big blobs will still take as many speed mods as possible, not caring about the negatives, so they could then easily catch solo / small group players (not being as fast), and since they're a big blob, their numbers allow them to take the solo / small group players with ease.

They will care about the negatives if we make the negatives severe enough.

Just to be outrageous, imagine Bovenwinds is -50% structure and crooked hull is -50% structure. If you equip both your ship immediately starts sinking when the battle starts (or maybe as soon as the first cannonball hits you). Or -99% mast thickness meaning a shot from a 4-pounder knocks your mast off.

We can definitely punish people for overloading on speed. It's just a question of how much punishment makes it interesting.

I think a lot of people would feel satisfied if they got ganked 4v1 but their tanked out Aggie actually killed one of the gankers. Currently that doesn't happen because those 4 speed boats are still like 90% of their full strength. The speed Connie running you down has close to the same firepower as a tanked out Connie and his bermuda build is not that much weaker than a tank build -- his build makes him weaker but not enough that you'll seriously threaten him in a 4v1.

I think the goal should be to make speed be a serious decision. You can cripple yourself so badly that a tanked out Aggie really can beat 4 speed Connies.

@admin - don't forget to think about turning and acceleration debuffs! We'd have to really think hard about a speed mod that was +5% speed but also greatly debuffed our turn rate, meaning it will be really hard to be a speed ship and still stern camp anything.

[Captain Lust]

17 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

actually the speed cap is the only thing that can balance OW.

i see now more than before the wipe a big variety of PVP group, 3 -4 player in 3-4 different ship cause where Bellona fails Surprise doesn't and you need both, 1 for catch 1 for kill...

 

if you remove speed-cap, you will see single PVPers in motorboat Surprise killing everything without risking nothing cause he can go at 25 knots and the rest of player (0,001%because not all have an alt acc in nation who sells special module woods, or have so much time to sail 4 hours to reach cartaghena to buy 5 log of it, or maybe nothing because a closer player put a contract for 1000 cartagena tar and the port produce 5 at hour) can reach only 24 maybe...so people will leave fast cause only one who can play PVP is the player with more contracts for bonewind, or something else.

also nerfing the bonus or malus will kill the PVP in the same way...i don't care if my 25knots bonus will reduce my ship HP at 1 point...no one will never put 1 single ball on me cause i have all the bonus of the game and no one can reach me.

PVP is based on skil, not % of magic...

skill is: same condition or a little, but very little, difference on speed and all better ability in manual sail in the right moment to avoid shots and hit enemy few second later and manouver faster or better and so on...

actually the game is: ''you can't go above 15knots...so show me what you can do with your skill in a equal-condition battle''

 

remove speedcap and you will kill your PVP...or your game

What a pile of steaming bullshit.... mind sharing some of your bovenwinds / crooked hull refits from your stacks? Can be the only reason to spout this rubbish... Surprise is already everywhere... due to the retarded speed cap only the the ships with many good points of sail and as much firepower/guns as possible matter and your "% of magic" would be the speed mod stacking that plays a far bigger role in pvp atm than "PVP is based on skill"....

And your  ''you can't go above 15knots...so show me what you can do with your skill in a equal-condition battle'' is probably to referring to your constitution/pfrig/surp gank squad with gazelle/bovenwinds/crooked  art of ship handling/opt ballast/speed trim/art of cargo distribution ( because why sail anything else? ) tagging some casual scrub who, oddly enough, hasnt ditched the game yet in his NPC bought Renommée with crew space instead proper planking? Gtfo mate, you're giving me cancer...

[Guest]

My clan  is slowly learning that while you need a fast tagger that can do 15 knts to get kills, in a gang the rest of the ships don't need to go 15 nts, In fact firepower and a moderate speed like 13.5-14.5nt is sufficent as long as one ship can chain shot the enemy enough.

IN a gang on gang fight (these are rare I know) the side with all the paper fir fir speed ships is going to lose vs the solid team with actually fighting ships.