Repeated Tagging Issues

[Skully]

21 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I agree repeated tagging is an issue.  But I imagine the fix isnt as easy as we all would like.

Some have suggested longer invisibility with speed bonus when leaving battle during the invisibility.  While I agree this would be the easiest, but not everyone agrees with it.

Picture some players sitting in a battle instance with a bait ship outside. Easy gank on anything sailing by.

Now picture the average player suddenly seeing that fleet warping in. In formation for the perfect invisibility gank.

Hence every proposal needs to be questioned to get it weighed with pros and cons.

But if someone flies off because he doesn't like the answer to a question. Then there is no meaningful discussion.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Skully

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Skully said:

What does a bored player do when facing a cool down?

Well I guess it would come down to a choice of a 30 minute cooldown or a couple of hours or longer being chased by a revenge fleet. I know which one I'd choose. And remember the cooldown would not apply after you got back to port. Remember also that you would have had you fun after probably taking down some poor unsuspecting trader or other ship, that is why the revenge fleet are after you.

[Mrdoomed]

8 minutes ago, Vllad said:

With voice com's this will never be fixed in a way that satisfies anyone. However if you want a fix the only way is shrink the instances and lock the players into a death match. Players go in and don't come out until all enemies are dead and the instance size is shortened so no one runs. It would not be popular but something along those lines are the only fix.

The other extreme is like 10 min invis and invuls. Not 1 min, not 5 but 10.

I know I will wait just 5 mins away from a fight so others will as well. 10 mins would be about my limit to wait and find people so I assume that would be others as well.

 

Anything else less extreme won't change anything.

 

I will keep re-tagging people in my home waters even if I know it won't result in fight simply to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. It is a form of protection even if the result isn't death. I will do it for hours if I have to. In enemy waters I will not keep re-tagging. That is a good way to end up dead.

If you want to get rid of re-tagging you will have to compensate for players like myself that will do everything possible to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. If your solution isn't extreme it isn't going to stop it.

Bingo ! And as much as it may upset skully to hear an opinion he doesnt like ( get over it) that is why i say there is only one sure fire way to stop the constant reveng fleer and  repeat tagging is to keep it from ever starting to begin with. 

 

Thank you for making me feel even more justified in my thinking.

[Mrdoomed]

10 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Well I guess it would come down to a choice of a 30 minute cooldown or a couple of hours or longer being chased by a revenge fleet. I know which one I'd choose. And remember the cooldown would not apply after you got back to port. Remember also that you would have had you fun after probably taking down some poor unsuspecting trader or other ship, that is why the revenge fleet are after you.

Yes they have timeto waste 3 hours reveng tagging a raider but they dont have time to wait a few minutes for a cooldown....its how you know they are intellectually dishonest and have an agenda.

[Mrdoomed]

38 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I agree repeated tagging is an issue.  But I imagine the fix isnt as easy as we all would like.

Some have suggested longer invisibility with speed bonus when leaving battle during the invisibility.  While I agree this would be the easiest, but not everyone agrees with it.

Couldnt agree more and since every single solution tried has failed or been explited and it will continue to happen i dont understand the fanatical resistance to a short cooldown to keep gankers tied to one gank per , fill in the blank.

You and i both know even before we could teleport that most players could get around fine amd the excuse that it takes 3 hours to sail anywhere is just a lazy excuse because if they can chase me for 4 hours in reveng tags they can surely sail 20 minutes to do something. 

Give me a working solution and im on board but other than cooldows or teleports away from battle i dont and haven5 seen anything work.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Mrdoomed

[Skully]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Well I guess it would come down to a choice of a 30 minute cooldown or a couple of hours or longer being chased by a revenge fleet. I know which one I'd choose. And remember the cooldown would not apply after you got back to port. Remember also that you would have had you fun after probably taking down some poor unsuspecting trader or other ship, that is why the revenge fleet are after you.

Sure, but a 30 minute teleport cool down changes nothing to the problem of retagging.

You both are on OW, with a cool down running, doing a tagging battle.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Skully
Clarified which cooldown is off-topic

[Archaos]

10 minutes ago, Vllad said:

With voice com's this will never be fixed in a way that satisfies anyone. However if you want a fix the only way is shrink the instances and lock the players into a death match. Players go in and don't come out until all enemies are dead and the instance size is shortened so no one runs. It would not be popular but something along those lines are the only fix.

The other extreme is like 10 min invis and invuls. Not 1 min, not 5 but 10 minimum.

I know I will wait just 5 mins away from a fight so others will as well. 10 mins would be about my limit to wait and find people so I assume that would be others as well. I am not a fan of of just the Invul because if I did find someone I would wait the 10 minutes and even way more for it to wear off then attack them.

 

Anything else less extreme won't change anything.

 

I will keep re-tagging people in my home waters even if I know it won't result in fight simply to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. It is a form of protection even if the result isn't death. I will do it for hours if I have to. In enemy waters I will not keep re-tagging. That is a good way to end up dead.

If you want to get rid of re-tagging you will have to compensate for players like myself that will do everything possible to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. If your solution isn't extreme it isn't going to stop it.

I dont see how the smaller instance and death match help with the tagging issue. You have a pirate raider hangs outside KPR and snags a trader, now the trader has no chance to escape and no chance to win against the raider. The raider then exits the battle and there is a revenge fleet waiting, so they tag him and destroy him. Upshot is you have just destroyed any sort of raiding in the game as there is no escape.

Regarding invisibility and invulnerability you do realise that once you go past 2 minutes you may as well let them log off as thats how long it takes in open world. And all that happens then is they log off and come back when you have got bored waiting for them and attack another target. With allowing them to log off after the battle and having a 30minute cooldown before they can attack anyone when they log back in without first going into port, you as defender of your traders know at least you have chased him off for a while and dont have to spend hours tagging and retagging as they run off. Read the post by Koltes regarding pirate solo raiding and you will realise that these speed built raiders are hard to catch and you will chase them for a long time. 

[Archaos]

8 minutes ago, Skully said:

Sure, but a 30 minute cool down changes nothing to the problem of retagging.

You both are on OW, with a cool down running, doing a tagging battle.

People complained that they did not have the time to run away with the constant tagging and retagging because they had things to attend to in RL. Well with the logout that complaint is gone. You logout after your battle or after escaping however many tags you have time to handle and once you are ready to log back in again you know you have to accept the cooldown penalty.

Raiders have to accept that if they are raiding in enemy waters they are going to be chased, they cannot just have it all on their terms. Remember traders too have the same problem with being tagged and retagged by the raiders, I am sure they would like the option once they escaped the initial battle to be able to log off safely and not have to worry about being retagged by the same raider.

[Skully]

16 minutes ago, Archaos said:

People complained that they did not have the time to run away with the constant tagging and retagging because they had things to attend to in RL. Well with the logout that complaint is gone. You logout after your battle or after escaping however many tags you have time to handle and once you are ready to log back in again you know you have to accept the cooldown penalty.

Raiders have to accept that if they are raiding in enemy waters they are going to be chased, they cannot just have it all on their terms. Remember traders too have the same problem with being tagged and retagged by the raiders, I am sure they would like the option once they escaped the initial battle to be able to log off safely and not have to worry about being retagged by the same raider.

Sorry, got carried away with the off-topic teleport cooldown.

An attack cooldown might be an acceptable price for logoff.

The way to abuse this is, is bringing in one or more ships that can execute a tag. The ships logging in could join such a battle.

Ships logging in should be able to be dragged into such battles as they likely are a group.

[Hodo]

3 minutes ago, Vllad said:

With voice com's this will never be fixed in a way that satisfies anyone. However if you want a fix the only way is shrink the instances and lock the players into a death match. Players go in and don't come out until all enemies are dead and the instance size is shortened so no one runs. It would not be popular but something along those lines are the only fix.

The other extreme is like 10 min invis and invuls. Not 1 min, not 5 but 10.

I know I will wait just 5 mins away from a fight so others will as well. 10 mins would be about my limit to wait and find people so I assume that would be others as well.

 

Anything else less extreme won't change anything.

 

I will keep re-tagging people in my home waters even if I know it won't result in fight simply to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. It is a form of protection even if the result isn't death. I will do it for hours if I have to. In enemy waters I will not keep re-tagging. That is a good way to end up dead.

If you want to get rid of re-tagging you will have to compensate for players like myself that will do everything possible to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. If your solution isn't extreme it isn't going to stop it.

There is nothing we can do about voice comms, there is that.  But if someone wants to wait 5min away in OW in every possible direction, then that is well amazing.

[Mrdoomed]

28 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I dont see how the smaller instance and death match help with the tagging issue. You have a pirate raider hangs outside KPR and snags a trader, now the trader has no chance to escape and no chance to win against the raider. The raider then exits the battle and there is a revenge fleet waiting, so they tag him and destroy him. Upshot is you have just destroyed any sort of raiding in the game as there is no escape.

You are correct and this is what the proponents of reveng fleets via teleport wanted and its what they got. Only negitive is that it reduced the amount of people in the entire world who still found the game fun to under 1000 world wide. 

I knew hundreds of players who quit because they could no longer player raiders/pirates /privateer without 3 or 4 hours of revenge fleet tags each time they played. Anyone who plays that style knows thier ship will never be caught but you can only be chased for 4 hours so many times before logginflg in isnt worth it.  

If you have read all the posts from the reveng gankers they are on a mission and almsot seem like they really hate the players they are after. Some talk of waiting for HOURS in one spot just to gank a guy when he exits the BS and demanded that players cant log off so they knew eventually the raider had to come out and b ganked. I personally had players chase me for hours and hours and hours ( an entire saturday morning and afternoon once) just to eventually tey and get me to surrender.  How messed up is a person who will sit for hours and hours and hours in a spot in the water just to gank someone? Funny they can waste hours doing that but not 20 minutes to sail to another port lol.

But yes you are right raiders being eliminated is the goal.

[Vllad]

25 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I dont see how the smaller instance and death match help with the tagging issue. You have a pirate raider hangs outside KPR and snags a trader, now the trader has no chance to escape and no chance to win against the raider. The raider then exits the battle and there is a revenge fleet waiting, so they tag him and destroy him. Upshot is you have just destroyed any sort of raiding in the game as there is no escape.

Regarding invisibility and invulnerability you do realise that once you go past 2 minutes you may as well let them log off as thats how long it takes in open world. And all that happens then is they log off and come back when you have got bored waiting for them and attack another target.

 

I did warn you that my suggestions suck!

First however re-tagging and a revenge fleet are two different things. Re-tagging is when I attack someone and they get away then I just retag them again to continue to get them in battles. Revenge fleet is someone pops out of the instance only to be re-engaged with another group outside.

I don't mind the mechanics as they are but people keep coming here to ask for changes and I am only pointing out that all of their suggestions just simply won't make any difference unless you do something extreme.

Voice Com's will always create re-tagging and revenge fleets no matter how many bad suggestions people bring to this board. If you want to stop re-tagging then you need to lock the players into the instance until someone is dead period. That is how extreme you have to go in order to prevent people from tagging over and over.

For revenge fleets you have to make it impossible for anyone to be caught for very long periods of time after combat. Otherwise give it up and accept them.

I didn't say these were good suggestions, I am only pointing out that is how far you have to go to eliminate voice com's as a factor.

 

Allowing people to log out is a terrible idea. I have camped people at ports for more than 90 mins. I would do the same for people who just log out.

[Vllad]

4 minutes ago, Hodo said:

 But if someone wants to wait 5min away in OW in every possible direction, then that is well amazing.

Isn't everyone doing that? That is what we do in France to guard our waters.

[Mrdoomed]

7 minutes ago, Skully said:

Sorry, got carried away with the off-topic teleport cooldown.

An attack cooldown might be an acceptable price for logoff.

The way to abuse this is, is bringing in one or more ships that can execute a tag. The ships logging in could join such a battle.

Ships logging in should be able to be dragged into such battles as they likely are a group.

Teleports cooldown is NOT off topic when it comes to fixing revenge tags over and over. You just dont want any opinion other than yours being out there.

If someone cant teleport to you to reveng gank you then tell me how they teleport to you to revenge gank you and keep tagging you? If they cant willy nilly get to everu battle them the problem is solved and that is exactly on topic sir.

There wouldn't be all these complaints if reveng tagging only happend at kpr or only happens once in a great while. Its an issue because it happens every time and you either are to insecure to admit that just maybe im right or you just arenlooking for a fight. Eitner way I'm done defending myself with you because you obviously have issues. I will continue to give my solutions and opinions as long as they are following the rules. If you dont like them DONT READ THEM.

[Skully]

49 minutes ago, Skully said:

Sure, but a 30 minute teleport cool down changes nothing to the problem of retagging.

You both are on OW, with a cool down running, doing a tagging battle.

Changed to clarify teleport cooldown is off-topic. 

[Mrdoomed]

12 minutes ago, Vllad said:

 

I did warn you that my suggestions suck!

First however re-tagging and a revenge fleet are two different things. Re-tagging is when I attack someone and they get away then I just retag them again to continue to get them in battles. Revenge fleet is someone pops out of the instance only to be re-engaged with another group outside.

I don't mind the mechanics as they are but people keep coming here to ask for changes and I am only pointing out that all of their suggestions just simply won't make any difference unless you do something extreme.

Voice Com's will always create re-tagging and revenge fleets no matter how many bad suggestions people bring to this board. If you want to stop re-tagging then you need to lock the players into the instance until someone is dead period. That is how extreme you have to go in order to prevent people from tagging over and over.

For revenge fleets you have to make it impossible for anyone to be caught for very long periods of time after combat. Otherwise give it up and accept them.

I didn't say these were good suggestions, I am only pointing out that is how far you have to go to eliminate voice com's as a factor.

 

Allowing people to log out is a terrible idea. I have camped people at ports for more than 90 mins. I would do the same for people who just log out.

Im not picking you out so dont be offended but im using you because you are proving my point when it comes to reveng mindset.

This player says he will sit 90 minutes outside a port in order to gank someone.  90!!! Just sitting doing nothing! And people complain they don't have time to sail?  This is what ive been saying for over a year. Its not a time thing its a revenge thing and some people will do ANYTHING to get it including sitting for hours and hours doing nothing just waiting to revenge gank.

Putting a cooldown on teleports or allowing teleports away from battle is the only way to fix reveng ganks and constant retags just to force someone to log off and lose.

Sorry but nobody is going to play a game where people who see blood and will do anything to get it are given freebie paths to do it.

Thanks sir for your honesty. 

[Skully]

And then the both of you want to dictate how players must spend their time:

1. Being forced to play continously
2. Being stuck behind a teleport cooldown

@Vllad you do have some points by the extremist positions. But having no option but to die as a trader when tagged will quickly empty the world of traders.

The game dictating how folks should schedule their RL is simply bad.

[Archaos]

14 minutes ago, Vllad said:

 

I did warn you that my suggestions suck!

First however re-tagging and a revenge fleet are two different things. Re-tagging is when I attack someone and they get away then I just retag them again to continue to get them in battles. Revenge fleet is someone pops out of the instance only to be re-engaged with another group outside.

I don't mind the mechanics as they are but people keep coming here to ask for changes and I am only pointing out that all of their suggestions just simply won't make any difference unless you do something extreme.

Voice Com's will always create re-tagging and revenge fleets no matter how many bad suggestions people bring to this board. If you want to stop re-tagging then you need to lock the players into the instance until someone is dead period. That is how extreme you have to go in order to prevent people from tagging over and over.

For revenge fleets you have to make it impossible for anyone to be caught for very long periods of time after combat. Otherwise give it up and accept them.

I didn't say these were good suggestions, I am only pointing out that is how far you have to go to eliminate voice com's as a factor.

 

Allowing people to log out is a terrible idea. I have camped people at ports for more than 90 mins. I would do the same for people who just log out.

The reason people complain about the constant retagging by revenge fleets is that although they know they can escape with the constant retagging they end up running away for hours and if they do not have the time to do that due to RL then they are forced to surrender.

You will never be able to counter someone who is willing to sit outside where someone has logged off for several hours waiting for them to log back in, but thankfully there are not many people who are that persistent, so it would not be a major issue.

I do firmly believe that the allowing to log off from battle with a cooldown on attacking once logging back in is the best compromise for all, whether it be the tagging/retagging or the avoidance of revenge fleets. It is not a perfect solution (as I do not think there is one) but it gives all parties some chance. The raider does not have to face the revenge fleet but at the same time the revenge fleet know the raider will not be able to attack for some time and the poor defenseless trader will know that if he escapes the raider then he can log off to avoid retag. 

[Mrdoomed]

14 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The reason people complain about the constant retagging by revenge fleets is that although they know they can escape with the constant retagging they end up running away for hours and if they do not have the time to do that due to RL then they are forced to surrender.

You will never be able to counter someone who is willing to sit outside where someone has logged off for several hours waiting for them to log back in, but thankfully there are not many people who are that persistent, so it would not be a major issue.

I do firmly believe that the allowing to log off from battle with a cooldown on attacking once logging back in is the best compromise for all, whether it be the tagging/retagging or the avoidance of revenge fleets. It is not a perfect solution (as I do not think there is one) but it gives all parties some chance. The raider does not have to face the revenge fleet but at the same time the revenge fleet know the raider will not be able to attack for some time and the poor defenseless trader will know that if he escapes the raider then he can log off to avoid retag. 

Your logoff with cooldown is a good middle ground but you will never get the hard core gankers support because they cant even comprehend what you are saying. They only see cooldown and fair and their eyes gloss over and they thumbs down it.

You are right when you say nobody will play a game where they are forced to run for hours each battle or surrender.  Wish you could make a naval action game lol.

[Hodo]

39 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Isn't everyone doing that? That is what we do in France to guard our waters.

Most people I have seen are sitting about 60-90second out from the battle.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Mrdoomed said:

Your logoff with cooldown is a good middle ground but you will never get the hard core gankers support because they cant even comprehend what you are saying. They only see cooldown and fair and their eyes gloss over and they thumbs down it.

You are right when you say nobody will play a game where they are forced to run for hours each battle or surrender.  Wish you could make a naval action game lol.

Thankyou I am glad you can see the compromise in my suggestion. The thing is we dont need the gankers support we just need the Devs to take note and see it as a possible solution to be tried. The same solution was used for entry to port battles after logoff and you do not see many complaints about that now it has been implemented.

Of course as Skully says people may still try and game it to find ways round, but at least it would be a step in the right direction and loopholes could be dealt with as they were discovered.

[Skully]

24 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Thankyou I am glad you can see the compromise in my suggestion. The thing is we dont need the gankers support we just need the Devs to take note and see it as a possible solution to be tried. The same solution was used for entry to port battles after logoff and you do not see many complaints about that now it has been implemented.

Of course as Skully says people may still try and game it to find ways round, but at least it would be a step in the right direction and loopholes could be dealt with as they were discovered.

Or accept the loopholes as they are. As long as they do not provide advantage to one side and can be (ab)used equally. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Skully

[DeRuyter]

@Mrdoomed I am not sure that no cooldown teleport has anything to do with no escape re-tagging in capitol waters (the "Home Defense fleet"). For the most part there are enough players around some capitols that they don't have to tp to form the fleet. Look at the OP - he was operating off MT and some ships came directly from there and some actually sailed from another location because of the hours of re-tagging! Look at the screens the original opponent sailed back out of port with the chasing fleet. Bottom line in this case the revenge fleet would have come out even without any teleport in game.

Sadly it looks as if   @EliteDelta was on a solo raid and he certainly did not pick on a newbie trader, so I wouldn't call him a ganker and he got a 5 hour chase for his trouble.

 

[Vllad]

3 hours ago, Mrdoomed said:

Im not picking you out so dont be offended but im using you because you are proving my point when it comes to reveng mindset.

This player says he will sit 90 minutes outside a port in order to gank someone.  90!!! 

No offense taken!

I am a perfect example of what you dislike about the game and I get it. I just don't think any game mechanic can solve players like me. Players can though. 

 

[Vllad]

3 hours ago, Skully said:

 

@Vllad you do have some points by the extremist positions. But having no option but to die as a trader when tagged will quickly empty the world of traders.

The game dictating how folks should schedule their RL is simply bad.

You wouldn't get an argument from me. Your points are completely valid. However if RL comes up and you are stuck getting tagged maybe its time to fight it out and be done with it. Those doing the tagging don't know your wife is screaming at the door. I think the wife is worth 200k in game gold. 

 

I to have been heading to bed when all of a sudden PVP breaks out. I just know I am going without sleep before work or I am fighting it out win or lose. 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Vllad