Repeated Tagging Issues

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Mrdoomed said:

We used to be able to log off for work or family without sacrificing our ship up untill a few months ago.

Thats how i played and survived was being able to log off after the 3rd hour of being reveng tagged lol. And yes the gankers ( same old guys) hated it and demanded it be gone so they could get thier lazy kills.

This has become a lazy mans collection game and it shows by the population. 

The reason the revenge fleet gankers hated it was because they did not know whether you had logged or were just hiding in the battle screen and as soon as they got bored and went away you could pop out and resume striking at targets which becomes very frustrating after a while.

I know this is a game and there is no requirement for it to be realistic, but to put it in realistic terms if there was news of a raider hitting traders outside a port then the navy in that port would head out to catch them or chase them off. When the raider saw this fleet coming for them they would run and go hunt in another area for a while. They would not be able to just disappear and then reappear at will.

[Mrdoomed]

8 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I'd appreciate it if the discussion could move back towards solutions on how to fix the tagging mechanics. Whether or not we have teleports doesn't change the fact that a group of 8+ players can keep someone stuck in the battle/tagging cycle as long as they want to. 

Well i BELIEVE what smart people are trying to tell you and others is that the problem you want solved WAS mostly created by the teleport at will option.  Duh.

If half the hello kittying map cant teleport to your battle then they cant keep tagging you can they? Its small sightedness that got this problem where it is so try not to stifle the players trying to fix the problem you created.

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I'd appreciate it if the discussion could move back towards solutions on how to fix the tagging mechanics. Whether or not we have teleports doesn't change the fact that a group of 8+ players can keep someone stuck in the battle/tagging cycle as long as they want to. 

So whats your thoughts on the log off after battle but not be allowed to attack for 30 minutes once you log back on without first going into port?

[Mrdoomed]

9 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The reason the revenge fleet gankers hated it was because they did not know whether you had logged or were just hiding in the battle screen and as soon as they got bored and went away you could pop out and resume striking at targets which becomes very frustrating after a while.

I know this is a game and there is no requirement for it to be realistic, but to put it in realistic terms if there was news of a raider hitting traders outside a port then the navy in that port would head out to catch them or chase them off. When the raider saw this fleet coming for them they would run and go hunt in another area for a while. They would not be able to just disappear and then reappear at will.

Agree with your premise but unfortunately if i am 2 days sail ( in game days) off the coast and enter a battle that lasts say 20 real minutes and exit then the coast guard that was 2 days away shouldn't be waiting to tag me they should be 1 day 23 hours and 40bminutes away so that being said realism has taken a back seat to fair.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Mrdoomed said:

Well i BELIEVE what smart people are trying to tell you and others is that the problem you want solved WAS mostly created by the teleport at will option.  Duh.

If half the hello kittying map cant teleport to your battle then they cant keep tagging you can they? Its small sightedness that got this problem where it is so try not to stifle the players trying to fix the problem you created.

You aren't looking at the whole situation. If you run into a pack of 8+ player, maybe even just 6+, they can hold onto you FOREVER if they want to. That is the issue. You could run into a pack like that on OW miles away from any capitals or free ports. The mechanic is BROKEN.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Mrdoomed said:

Agree with your premise but unfortunately if i am 2 days sail ( in game days) off the coast and enter a battle that lasts say 20 real minutes and exit then the coast guard that was 2 days away shouldn't be waiting to tag me they should be 1 day 23 hours and 40bminutes away so that being said realism has taken a back seat to fair.

I think if you are 2 game days off the coast you are almost half way across the Caribbean.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

So whats your thoughts on the log off after battle but not be allowed to attack for 30 minutes once you log back on without first going into port?

I personally dislike being forced to log off, i'd prefer a solution that would give me a fighting chance to get away in-game. I'm not looking for a guaranteed escape, but something that gives me a chance.

[Archaos]

23 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I personally dislike being forced to log off, i'd prefer a solution that would give me a fighting chance to get away in-game. I'm not looking for a guaranteed escape, but something that gives me a chance.

The issue is most other solutions I have seen proposed appear to give too much advantage to the raider, allowing them to constantly raid without being caught. They can then dictate which battles they want to fight and immediately things get too hot they run, leaving the revenge fleet getting bored because they can never chase off raiders without constant patrol, which is boring against a foe you cannot catch.

I used to see it a lot trying to patrol the water around KPR prior to the wipe. You would chase raiders for ages and they would only turn and fight once the chasers got split up and they got a good tag on the lead chaser, leaving the rest of the chasers out of the insta closed battle.

Edit: and BTW my solution would totally solve your OP as if you wished you could exit to OW and face them or outrun them, but if RL called or you were out of play time for that day you could log off.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Archaos

[Mrdoomed]

The best solution that would fix everything  (including the hatred of teleport ) would be to make the map a million times bigger and do away with instant zones !  Want to tp to me? ? Fine go ahead then sail an hour to where im fighting.  Run into a group of 10 who want to keep tagging you? Well they cant tag and port you into the 4th dimension and must actual sink you on the sea while you run to safty. 

A " real world live action " map would fix soooooooo many problems but for some reason the exact same people who support revenge fleets fight this idea too.

If this was a continuous live world like most games it could be fantastic. 

[Mrdoomed]

21 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

You aren't looking at the whole situation. If you run into a pack of 8+ player, maybe even just 6+, they can hold onto you FOREVER if they want to. That is the issue. You could run into a pack like that on OW miles away from any capitals or free ports. The mechanic is BROKEN.

I understand the whole picture more than most and yes you are correct but what im saying is BEFORE no cooldown teleports i ran into the situation you are describing only if i was somewhere i should not be or if i just got very unlucky. 

In months of playing with a 3 hour cooldown i only ran into the retagging revenge fleet a handful of times and each time it was because i got greedy and got to close to populated areas. After the cooldown was removed i couldnt attack anyone anywhere without having a revenge fleet waiting to retag me endlessly. 

Does that make more sense ? What im saying is we are trying to solve a problem WE largely created ourselves.  Im all for allowing players to tp out of battle to keep from being retagged since tps are allowed .

[akd]

1 hour ago, EliteDelta said:

I personally dislike being forced to log off, i'd prefer a solution that would give me a fighting chance to get away in-game. I'm not looking for a guaranteed escape, but something that gives me a chance.

This is why log-off with harsh attack / join penalty is probably the best solution: neither side really likes it.  That suggests to me it is balanced.  You can no longer be held hostage to the game (fatal design flaw), but if you engage where you are more likely to encounter revenge fleets, you face steep time penalty (deterrence for home waters).  The problem with your "decent chance" to make a getaway is it will inevitably be perceived as a get out of jail for free card by the other side.

That said, it doesn't necessarily have to be exclusive of a decent chance to run for it.  My proposal has you re enter open world where you must make decision to run or stay stationary and log-off / TP to nearest port.  Invisibility would need to be adjusted to account for load in time, a reasonable few seconds to judge situation and enough additional invisibility to allow for a chance to actually run.

Edited July 9, 2017 by akd

[Malachy]

@EliteDelta I think that revenge fleeting is a symptom of a bigger problem. The issues with teleports is part of the problem. I don't think you can solve one without solving the other. I also don't think removing instances is the solution either. Removing instances is going to require a lot more bandwidth to play and those on poor connections will suffer for it.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, akd said:

This is why log-off with harsh attack / join penalty is probably the best solution: neither side really likes it.  That suggests to me it is balanced.  You can no longer be held hostage to the game (fatal design flaw), but if you engage where you are more likely to encounter revenge fleets, you face steep time penalty (deterrence for home waters).  The problem with your "decent chance" to make a getaway is it will inevitably be perceived as a get out of jail for free card by the other side.

That said, it doesn't necessarily have to be exclusive of a decent chance to run for it.  My proposal has you re enter open world where you must make decision to run or stay stationary and log-off / TP to nearest port.  Invisibility would need to be adjusted to account for load in time, a reasonable few seconds to judge situation and enough additional invisibility to allow for a chance to actually run.

Fair enough, I'd be happy to see some version of this tested. 

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Peter Goldman said:

Logout solution forced people to quit game. Some revenge fleets actually waited 2-3 hours waiting for enemies to login, thinking they are safe (I still remember them around Jamaica, was even part of them).

If revenge fleet is dedicated enough to hang around for 2-3 hours then there is no solution you can put in place to avoid them apart from allowing teleport, and allowing teleport gives too much advantage to the raider.

People dedicated enough to wait that long will also be dedicated enough to set up to catch you no matter how long invisibility lasts or whatever short speed boost you get. They will just adjust their net to catch you. I agree that the logout may not be the best solution but at least it takes care of the people who say they do not have the time to continue playing due to RL. There is a downside for the raider and for the revenge fleet, so at least it is some form of compromise.

[Mrdoomed]

5 hours ago, Archaos said:

If revenge fleet is dedicated enough to hang around for 2-3 hours then there is no solution you can put in place to avoid them apart from allowing teleport, and allowing teleport gives too much advantage to the raider. 

I dont understand why teleport for the ganker/attcker is ok but teleport for the defender/raider is bad.

We either have teleports or we dont. This stupid some tp forbsome people to some places but not others is stupid.  This game is so micro managed its beyond funny.

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Mrdoomed said:

I dont understand why teleport for the ganker/attcker is ok but teleport for the defender/raider is bad.

We either have teleports or we dont. This stupid some tp forbsome people to some places but not others is stupid.  This game is so micro managed its beyond funny.

I think you misunderstand my point. I do not think there should be any teleport allowed after battle, I was just pointing out that if it was allowed it gives a greater advantage to the attacker as they can surprise attack a vessel and teleport back home before anyone can catch him.

[Mrdoomed]

44 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I think you misunderstand my point. I do not think there should be any teleport allowed after battle, I was just pointing out that if it was allowed it gives a greater advantage to the attacker as they can surprise attack a vessel and teleport back home before anyone can catch him.

No i understand your point, youre missing my point. I dont think any teleports should be allowed but since they are then why do the devs get to pick winners and losers in the magic spell department?  They can tp to the battle area I should be able to teleport away from the battle area. Stop picking winners and losers.

And yes with increased ow speed and the closeness and abundance of ports there is almost nowhere that isnt close enough to get to while the pvp battle takes place in 4th dimension then the attackers get pulled back to the starting spot of battle not the ending spot...its all just stupid.

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Mrdoomed said:

No i understand your point, youre missing my point. I dont think any teleports should be allowed but since they are then why do the devs get to pick winners and losers in the magic spell department?  They can tp to the battle area I should be able to teleport away from the battle area. Stop picking winners and losers.

And yes with increased ow speed and the closeness and abundance of ports there is almost nowhere that isnt close enough to get to while the pvp battle takes place in 4th dimension then the attackers get pulled back to the starting spot of battle not the ending spot...its all just stupid.

I do understand your point but I guess they have to have some compromises due to the size of the playing area. They also have to simulate in some way defensive forces that would be stationed in that area. I guess in reality, especially around regional capitals, there would be local defense forces stationed that would be able to mobilize quickly if they heard that local shipping was being raided. In the game I guess people would get bored just hanging around 1 region in case a raider turned up.

The difficulty is as you put it the 4th dimension of the battle instance and the different time compression between this and the open world which allows the people in OW form up and be ready for the raider to emerge from this other dimension. The question is how do you handle this issue? As I see it if you allow a raider teleport after the battle then it totally negates any defense force and means the raider can attack a target and disappear off home with his spoils before anyone can react.

[Mrdoomed]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I do understand your point but I guess they have to have some compromises due to the size of the playing area. They also have to simulate in some way defensive forces that would be stationed in that area. I guess in reality, especially around regional capitals, there would be local defense forces stationed that would be able to mobilize quickly if they heard that local shipping was being raided. In the game I guess people would get bored just hanging around 1 region in case a raider turned up.

The difficulty is as you put it the 4th dimension of the battle instance and the different time compression between this and the open world which allows the people in OW form up and be ready for the raider to emerge from this other dimension. The question is how do you handle this issue? As I see it if you allow a raider teleport after the battle then it totally negates any defense force and means the raider can attack a target and disappear off home with his spoils before anyone can react.

The problem with the " capital defense force" that ive debunked a million times is this. I agree 100% that if youre sinking ships in Charleston harbor then yeah you will meet a defense force BUT lets say im thousands of miles from Charleston in the waters near Tumbado and all the US " defense force in Charleston is protecting Charlston suddenly teleports near Tumbado  ( a thousand miles away) in seconds to wait and sink me when i leave battle. So in reality EVERY US port is in fact the US capital and has that defense force. 

As the game progression goes and the power creep rises players will have ports all over the map because there is notjing else to do and it allows you to cross the map in an instant. 

So my question is how do you keep all ports from basically being the capital port then? Again i say if they can teleport to gank me i should be able to teleport away..yup its stupid and not real but then again neither is teleports or most things in this game.

[Skully]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

In the game I guess people would get bored just hanging around 1 region in case a raider turned up.

What does a bored player do when facing a cool down?

[Mrdoomed]

22 minutes ago, Skully said:

What does a bored player do when facing a cool down?

Thats something the 50 players who will be left will never have to deal with so why worry.

[Skully]

31 minutes ago, Mrdoomed said:

Thats something the 50 players who will be left will never have to deal with so why worry.

So bringing in a cool down will leave us 50 players. I guess we don't want a cool down then.

I'm glad you are finally making sense mrdoomed.

[Mrdoomed]

12 minutes ago, Skully said:

So bringing in a cool down will leave us 50 players. I guess we don't want a cool down then.

I'm glad you are finally making sense mrdoomed.

Yes and if aliens killed your ships you would sink but um thats not in the ge either so yourattempts to start a fight just show what a sad lap dog you are.

Sorry but i paid my 40 dollars to test this game JUST LIKE YOU so untill this game goes live ( ha ha) i get an opinion whether a person like you likes it or not.

Dont like it then change the rules otherwise deal with my opinion son. You and your brilliant ideas have caused so many problems that the game died so if course you fear all and any attempts to fix your mistakes. Sorry buddy.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Mrdoomed

[Hodo]

16 minutes ago, Mrdoomed said:

Yes and if aliens killed your ships you would sink but um thats not in the ge either so yourattempts to start a fight just show what a sad lap dog you are.

Sorry but i paid my 40 dollars to test this game JUST LIKE YOU so untill this game goes live ( ha ha) i get an opinion whether a person like you likes it or not.

Dont like it then change the rules otherwise deal with my opinion son. You and your brilliant ideas have caused so many problems that the game died so if course you fear all and any attempts to fix your mistakes. Sorry buddy.

I agree repeated tagging is an issue.  But I imagine the fix isnt as easy as we all would like.

Some have suggested longer invisibility with speed bonus when leaving battle during the invisibility.  While I agree this would be the easiest, but not everyone agrees with it.

[Vllad]

19 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I agree repeated tagging is an issue.  But I imagine the fix isnt as easy as we all would like.

With voice com's this will never be fixed in a way that satisfies anyone. However if you want a fix the only way is shrink the instances and lock the players into a death match. Players go in and don't come out until all enemies are dead and the instance size is shortened so no one runs. It would not be popular but something along those lines are the only fix.

The other extreme is like 10 min invis and invuls. Not 1 min, not 5 but 10 minimum.

I know I will wait just 5 mins away from a fight so others will as well. 10 mins would be about my limit to wait and find people so I assume that would be others as well. I am not a fan of of just the Invul because if I did find someone I would wait the 10 minutes and even way more for it to wear off then attack them.

 

Anything else less extreme won't change anything.

 

I will keep re-tagging people in my home waters even if I know it won't result in fight simply to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. It is a form of protection even if the result isn't death. I will do it for hours if I have to. In enemy waters I will not keep re-tagging. That is a good way to end up dead.

If you want to get rid of re-tagging you will have to compensate for players like myself that will do everything possible to keep gankers off my nations trade ships. If your solution isn't extreme it isn't going to stop it.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Vllad