pvp When PVE takes over PVP, analyzing the causes

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

Considering that NA has three servers at the time, separating pve-server from pvp-servers, it seems that something has gone wrong in the last patch. On pvp server pratically does not exist pvp, why?

• everything moves with combat marks, which are easily done with pve

• drop bonus from bots

• unlock slots for our ships

• doing a lot of money with pve

• not doing money with pvp, rather losing money

• less traders 

• pve move out people from OW

There are other causes, secondary and perhaps less obvious regarding the current ROE and exiti in OW, which prompted the players to move in large clans and to make revenge Fleets.
The system is totally broken.

To today, I don't think there are many reasons to play NA in this state, if not to waste time.
I think it requires a new patch to fix this situation as soon as possible.
You could just pick up some aspects of the pre-wipe (no marks, craftable upgrades, more trading, etc)
My idea is even more radical, take away all AIs and missions, so to force players to fight themselves (the original intent of this game). Obviously the attrition system for the Port Battles should be totally rethought.
Let's face it, NA's beautiful is the combat...

[Guest]

Anyone who is not taking the time to pvp and capture ships is missing out on a ton of fun and money. Ive bagged 3 trader lynxes totalling 200k gold from selling the ships and cargo this week. My clan caught a surprise yesterday worth 250k.

 

However the fact you don't get combat marks for capturing players sucks. Im starved for combat marks big time. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Guest

[Skully]

Duplicate of http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/21493-missions-still-ruining-pvp/&page=2#comment-437876

 

[DrZoidberg]

U re partially right, but if u want this game succesfull, u have to make all kind of players happy. Really easy solution if PVP marks worth like  minimum 20 combat mark, but atm with this OS sailing time for PVP should worth 50.

[Pada]

Make the mission spawn far away from port, how it was at steam launch. And remove the ability to delete them at the port you accepted them.

[Liq]

I think the main issue is that the vast majority of players are only okay to engage PvP when they've the upper hand; been like that pre wipe; now it's even worse when getting a ship ready for pvp is much harder - Why risk something you grinded for so long in a decent odds fight, for practically no rewards?

Anyway, my hopes for Arena mode are high, so if you want a quick good fight you can get that there, rather than sailing for hours in OW to finally meet someone not even willing to fight in decent odds - but rather leave and make sure they can 10v1 stomp you lol

Edited July 4, 2017 by Liquicity

[Skully]

This all reminds me of: 

 

[Ruthless4u]

43 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I think the main issue is that the vast majority of players are only okay to engage PvP when they've the upper hand; been like that pre wipe; now it's even worse when getting a ship ready for pvp is much harder - Why risk something you grinded for so long in a decent odds fight, for practically no rewards?

Anyway, my hopes for Arena mode are high, so if you want a quick good fight you can get that there, rather than sailing for hours in OW to finally meet someone not even willing to fight in decent odds - but rather leave and make sure they can 10v1 stomp you lol

 

I think most will be disappointed in arena.

 

I can't see the current battle set up translating well to a purely arena mode set up such as WOWS. The battles can last to long, they will too slow paced, will be far more dependent on team coordination than other similar games, etc.

I think a lot of changes will need to be made to legends to keep it viable for the more " arcade" style which seems to be its target audience.

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Ruthless4u said:

 

I think most will be disappointed in arena.

 

I can't see the current battle set up translating well to a purely arena mode set up such as WOWS. The battles can last to long, they will too slow paced, will be far more dependent on team coordination than other similar games, etc.

I think a lot of changes will need to be made to legends to keep it viable for the more " arcade" style which seems to be its target audience.

90 minutes max battle length is actually not THAT long - if you look into how long other games such as csgo or LoL can take

It will most likely also depend on the amount of captains in a battle, a small 3v3 - 5v5 frigate engagements should have lots of actions and not last as long as a 25v25 - I'm just hoping and assuming it will be possible to choose the size of the battle, rather than everyone being thrown into a 25v25 lobby until it's full

[Archaos]

24 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

90 minutes max battle length is actually not THAT long - if you look into how long other games such as csgo or LoL can take

It will most likely also depend on the amount of captains in a battle, a small 3v3 - 5v5 frigate engagements should have lots of actions and not last as long as a 25v25 - I'm just hoping and assuming it will be possible to choose the size of the battle, rather than everyone being thrown into a 25v25 lobby until it's full

I remember years ago playing a game called "Age of Sail II" and that had an online/LAN mode where you could set up battles in a lobby. If I remember correctly they did have some preset battles based on history such as Trafalgar, but you could also set up your own battles. That worked quite well then so it should be easy for them to do something similar for Legends. The only problem with AOSII was that it was very buggy and the online battles crashed regularly. I seriously hope they dont go with a "World of Warships" type game where you are just thrown into random scenarios.

[CaptVonGunn]

2 hours ago, DrZoidberg said:

U re partially right, but if u want this game succesfull, u have to make all kind of players happy. Really easy solution if PVP marks worth like  minimum 20 combat mark, but atm with this OS sailing time for PVP should worth 50.

There are no PvP marks. Just double Combat for PVP.. But it is stupid you don't get any unless you sink the other Guys ship

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

53 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I remember years ago playing a game called "Age of Sail II" and that had an online/LAN mode where you could set up battles in a lobby. If I remember correctly they did have some preset battles based on history such as Trafalgar, but you could also set up your own battles. That worked quite well then so it should be easy for them to do something similar for Legends. The only problem with AOSII was that it was very buggy and the online battles crashed regularly. I seriously hope they dont go with a "World of Warships" type game where you are just thrown into random scenarios.

Yeah, i hope in a NA legends with historical scenarios.

This does not detract from the fact that the present NA has worsened, becoming almost unplayable and very boring. Just get some things from the previous patches to make it good again.

[CaptVonGunn]

10 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Yeah, i hope in a NA legends with historical scenarios.

This does not detract from the fact that the present NA has worsened, becoming almost unplayable and very boring. Just get some things from the previous patches to make it good again.

Good luck with that... Far to many gamers only want the biggest most powerful ship... That is why we have been stuck with 25v25 first rate Port Battles for so long

[Justme]

3 hours ago, Archaos said:

I remember years ago playing a game called "Age of Sail II" and that had an online/LAN mode where you could set up battles in a lobby. If I remember correctly they did have some preset battles based on history such as Trafalgar, but you could also set up your own battles. That worked quite well then so it should be easy for them to do something similar for Legends. The only problem with AOSII was that it was very buggy and the online battles crashed regularly. I seriously hope they dont go with a "World of Warships" type game where you are just thrown into random scenarios.

I don't think many of the current player base wants a WOWS style game, but I doubt anything that's not similar to a WOWS may not attract the needed players.

I am concerned of the changes to the combat that need to be made for legends viable.

 

[surfimp]

5 hours ago, Liquicity said:

Anyway, my hopes for Arena mode are high, so if you want a quick good fight you can get that there, rather than sailing for hours in OW to finally meet someone not even willing to fight in decent odds - but rather leave and make sure they can 10v1 stomp you lol

Hey, sorry again for running away today, but I am just getting my feet wet with 5th rates after focusing on the little ships for a long, long time. The Surprise I was in was fit for speed and hunting and I was on my shakedown cruise. You were literally the first human I saw and I wasn't ready to rumble yet.

Let's just say I owe you a fair 1v1 fight someday, when I have a shred of confidence.

o7

[Quineloe]

99% of combat is PVE

 

and 99% of PVP is this nonsense

 

 

So you have 2, 3 maybe 5 real battles in a week with both sides trying to win (outside of port conquest)

That's a very thin line because if you for whatever reason miss those battles it doesn't take you very long to ponder why you even bother playing this game, to prepare for something forever and ever that just doesn't happen. Eventually you only log on for somewhat guaranteed PVP around port attacks, and then you just don't log in anymore at all.

[Grundgemunkey]

to be fair there was just as much pve going on before the wipe people were still grinding out missions ... its just that less pvp is going on ... mailny because of 1 dura ships .. and the cost to replace them ... its the risk/reward situation that doesnt make it viable

[Mrdoomed]

Well when can do pve your entire career and just keep doing them endlessly right outside your capital what do you expect.

Pve missions are the stupidest things ever to start with THEN the fact that you NEVER have to leave the hello kittying capital to do them makes pve missions the thing every single loser try hard carebear will do. 

Pve ruined gameplay pre wipe so if course it will ruin gameplay after. Im convinced its these pve mission kids who led to the death of NA. They are horrified of pvp but want to do port battles with the crowd so all they do is pve till then can get a SOL then they follow the hoard. These same players are the ones who come here and endlessly bitch about pvp being unfair and has led to the mess of a game we had now.

Ive said it since day one the pve server SHOULD allow port battles but no OW fights and all the carebear kids who hate pvp would go there.

[Fargo]

You could simplify it like this: [PvP&PvE activity = (fun / time + rewards / time) / risk]. 

PvP currently is "high risk, low reward", PvE "low risk, high reward". Obviously this is not working. Regarding PvP its not much effort to increase rewards. Also rare upgrades increase the risk unnecessarily. The difficult part only is balancing, in this case e.g. evaluating the risk, translating it into correct rewards.

The question is how to involve more risk in PvE, so people can choose between "Low risk, low reward" and "high risk, high reward". The problem is that taking a challenge currently is not rewarded. Larger ships provide more rewards, but they also take more time to sink. In terms of rewards/time its more efficient to grind easy missions. I think a slightly dynamic reward system would improve alot.

A simple system could look like this: Equal enemy = default rewards, -20% BR = ~30% less rewards, +20% BR = ~50% better rewards. Further increasing BR differences wont result in more/less rewards. Fleet missions would use average BR, so doin kapten fleets solo in an indef would provide less rewards. Enemy BR is higher in that case, but its no risk while ships cant penetrate your hull. We also might need missions based on ship class, not rank, so people can pick the challenge they want. Rank 4 missions e.g. vary alot cause its 5th rate and 4th rate rank.

More risk in PvE means PvP becomes less risky relatively. PvE becomes more exiting and less grindy in general.

[Corona Lisa]

4 minutes ago, Fargo said:

You could simplify it like this: [PvP&PvE activity = (fun / time + rewards / time) / risk]. 

PvP currently is "high risk, low reward", PvE "low risk, high reward". Obviously this is not working. Regarding PvP its not much effort to increase rewards. Also rare upgrades increase the risk unnecessarily. The difficult part only is balancing, in this case e.g. evaluating the risk, translating it into correct rewards.

Tell that to the devs lol

Quote

You seem to be not getting the point whats good for pvp is the abundance of targets not rewards. 
If you pvp for rewards you are not the killer/hunter/wolf etc. You hunt because you cannot not hunt. Its in your blood.

 

On 17.4.2017 at 11:41 PM, admin said:

extra rewards dont motivate pvp players (the thrill of the kill does). also the higher pvp reward is the easier it is to farm xp even with the recently killed status.

PvP players dont want progress!

Edited July 5, 2017 by Jon Snow lets go

[Teutonic]

I think for me it goes back to the assumption that 5 dura to 1 dura was going to mean the ship would cost 1/5 of what it previously did.

Well it didn't and in fact it got more expensive and then individual cannons and well...

What was once a 5 durability, cannons mounted, 60k surprise (with no mods) is now a upwards of 100k-150k surprise with 1 durability, long cannons loaded and no mods.

When it comes to pvp, I honestly see more of it, but that is more because we have to sail to get places now. I really like that we have more PvP because of it, but I wish the costs were how they were before....

Maybe keep all mechanics we have now, but bring multiple durability back...?

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Teutonic

[PIerrick de Badas]

i just hava made a fun 1v1 vs a swedish pirate frigate in surprise. Althought we fight 30 min shooting mostly sails but 3 tick per side on hull, i go out without any reward.

I then have attack a player with a friend and we finnaly finish in a 2v6.

So i fight bravely to force 3 of them to use rig repair and i damage 2 of their ships in hull. My ship is lost, i get no reward at all.

I think something is broken

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

RL counterpart, just for "historical simulation" topic.

A US fleet led by the President, Congress, and others got themselves involved in a running combat with the Belvidera. The entire chase and back to station did delay the US squadron 48 hours. Despite the saving the Jamaica Convoy ( was the prime target of the US squadron ) with such a brave action the captain of the Belvidera, Captain Byron, was not even acknowledged by the Navy Board for the action.

Not much unlike your situation.

 

[Ruthless4u]

24 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

RL counterpart, just for "historical simulation" topic.

A US fleet led by the President, Congress, and others got themselves involved in a running combat with the Belvidera. The entire chase and back to station did delay the US squadron 48 hours. Despite the saving the Jamaica Convoy ( was the prime target of the US squadron ) with such a brave action the captain of the Belvidera, Captain Byron, was not even acknowledged by the Navy Board for the action.

Not much unlike your situation.

 

With all due respect to history and RL, contributing to a fight and not getting anything for it if you do not make the kill. That's really frustrating to players, and kills a lot of the fun of team play in larger battles.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

2 minutes ago, Ruthless4u said:

With all due respect to history and RL, contributing to a fight and not getting anything for it if you do not make the kill. That's really frustrating to players, and kills a lot of the fun of team play in larger battles.

Yes. Was just a snip. There are countless actions that go unnoticed in the "local events" but do act high in the larger scheme.

For example sinking a "poor trader" full of materials ready to assemble a ship of the line.

Was only a trader but in truth was a ship of the line.

Reward ? Nothing. Just knowing that SOL will not see the light of day.